| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1JimbroAug 12, 2014 6:00:47 | Hey guys,
What do you think of this new point buy method I came up with?
http://worldbuilderblog.me/2014/08/12/if-you-stat-me-up-i-never-stop/
Let me know. We're rolling up characters next week so I need to know if I missed anything. |
| #2TiaNadiezjaAug 12, 2014 6:54:39 | No guaranteed 18s at the start is a trend in this edition I like. If I'm using point buy, I'm lopping off 16-18 from the buyable stats. |
| #3ZardnaarAug 12, 2014 7:02:51 | Not a fan and the 18 is probably to cheap. |
| #4tallric_kruushAug 12, 2014 7:12:33 | Jimbro, it's very similar to 4E's point buy, which is what we use. We tested 4E's 22 PB vs 5E's 27 PB, and found we made slightly better rounded characters and varied characters, without any real power boost. So, switched to 4E's 22 PB.
Out of curiosity, last night, I rolled stats for two separate theoretical versions of our adventuring party.It came out exactly as I expected. Each part ended up with one super hero, one near super hero, and three characters that were slightly better than the 22 PB characters. The PB values of the rolled characters ranged from 29 PB to 42 PB. (I used the locally popular method of 4d6, drop the lowest, distribute results as you wish.) That pretty well matches my experience with Rolled Abilities. It tends to create more powerful characters than Point Buy, though not necessarily more optimized, depending on whether you allow the distribution of these scores.
This power increase isn't a huge issue, necessarily, but the disparity is. We don't feel like one or two PCs should be substantially more gifted than the others. You could point out roleplaying opportunities afforded by this, but it's not our cup of tea. It might be cool to adventure with characters you idolize (like 42 PB guy), but only if you can rapidly close the gap and equal his efficacy. None of us wants to be the sidekick. We tend to treat our parties more like special forces teams, I guess, where everyone is elite and essential to the group.
Not every table is the same. That's just how we play. |
| #5SturmunddrangAug 12, 2014 7:15:30 |
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| #6tallric_kruushAug 12, 2014 7:15:13 |
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| #7tallric_kruushAug 12, 2014 7:18:05 |
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| #8KarnosAug 12, 2014 7:22:56 | I'm a big fan of the default point buy. 17 being the ceiling for level 1 stats (bought 15 + 2 racial bonus) really makes 18+ scores special.
5e is simple enough as far as stats go. Besides skills and saving throws, most classes only benefit from 2 or 3 ability scores. It's not hard to maximize your crucial stats over time, which leaves you some choices to make with your remaining points. You might not care much about wis Int or Cha for your dwarf Fighter, but the stats will make a difference occasionally when the skills are needed. |
| #9Eric888Aug 12, 2014 7:23:45 | Its a bad idea.
First it messes up race-balance. As it stand now, it does not really matter that much the distribution of the +2/+1. If wood elves had the two reversed, +2 wisdom and +1 dexterity instead of +2 dexterity and +1 wisdom, it would not matter since neither can get to 18. This opens up a lot of race/class combinations. If you could buy a 16-18 at inflated point costs, those doors all close. You wouldn't play a rogue if it didn't get a +2 into dex. +1 to dex is costing you several character points.
It is also kind of a trap. Starting with a 20 for most of your character points is great in 4e where stats do not cap at 20, but in 5e it does. Which means that if you gimped most of your stats to start with a 20, then at higher levels your stats will be noticably behind other players who also have gotten up to a 20, but have other stats much higher.
I think it is hard for fans of 3e/4e to get used to the new attributes. A 16 in your prime requisite does not look right. But trust me, you get used to it pretty quickly and it is better to just jump in the water than dangling your feet with holdovers from past editions. |
| #10LawolfAug 12, 2014 7:32:36 | I'm partial to this method.
Roll 3d6 in order. After you roll, you get 17 points to play with following the normal point but rules.
Basically instead of starting at all 8s and using points to increase those, you start with a random score in each attribute (3d6) and can build those up as you please with your points.
It creates more organic PCs than regular point buy, while still being balanced. |
| #11tallric_kruushAug 12, 2014 7:53:39 |
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| #12autolycusAug 12, 2014 7:58:39 | There are already avenues for increasing stats (race, feats, leveling). There is no need for a system which puts you at maximum stats right at the start.
3rd and 4th edition put pressure on you to have ever increasing stats to keep up. 5e does not. |
| #13LawolfAug 12, 2014 8:04:01 |
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| #14LawolfAug 12, 2014 8:08:16 |
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| #15autolycusAug 12, 2014 8:10:14 |
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| #16tallric_kruushAug 12, 2014 8:29:47 |
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| #17LawolfAug 12, 2014 8:32:50 |
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| #18tallric_kruushAug 12, 2014 8:40:23 |
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| #19autolycusAug 12, 2014 8:47:52 |
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| (Reply to #17)tallric_kruush |
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| #21LawolfAug 12, 2014 8:52:11 |
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| #22draegnAug 12, 2014 8:55:46 | For point buy consider using The Dark Eye's point buy system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Eye
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| #23autolycusAug 12, 2014 9:02:44 | The thing I wonder, though, is: who says you have to optimize?
Bounded accuracy means that you don't need to push your character to be edge-of-the-curve awesome.
Even a 1st level Fighter with a 16 Str can hit an Adult White Dragon (AC 18) with a roll of 13+. That's a 40% hit rate for a 1st level character with a moderate stat.
In 3rd edition that same dragon had an AC 26. And that 1st level fighter could only hit it 5% of the time.
It seems to me that there really isn't that much pressure to max out. |
| (Reply to #23)tallric_kruush |
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| #25LawolfAug 12, 2014 9:23:46 |
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| #26malisteenAug 12, 2014 9:24:31 | OP's point by method seems fine, but I would put a post-racial starting cap of 18 on any given stat, rather than allow people to buy out the max attainable stat at level one. |
| #27smbakeresqAug 12, 2014 9:37:52 | if you use a point buy, then feat use will be diminished for all but fighters, who get more chances to get feats and ability bumps
With a roll you get a chance to have your stats higher and thus feat use will increase.
Nothing is more beneficial then having you primary stat increased, as it is always "on." |
| #28smbakeresqAug 12, 2014 9:51:17 | The point buy also limits characters against type by limiting a stat that is not essential to the character. A rogue who is a spy might want deception and persuasion but wont put points into charisma. Likewise a fighter who is a noble and wants to play a leader type, after str and con, chr is at most 3rd. |
| #29ElfcrusherAug 12, 2014 9:55:55 |
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| #30tallric_kruushAug 12, 2014 10:35:14 | Some seem to be assuming that giving the player the option of purchasing an 18 automatically guarantees that the player will do so. A wise optimizer would do no such thing, for most character builds.
For the sake of argument, we will use the 4E PB as an example, since it allows you to purchase an 18. You get 22 points to spend, and an 18 costs 16 of those points. That's generally not a good buy in 5E, with the possible exception of a few corner cases I haven't considered. (It worked well for Mages in 4E).
What you would see is a lot of 16s purchased. A 16 costs 9 points. You could afford two Abilities at 16, and have a few points left over; or you could buy a 16,14,14 array and still have a few points to spend.
I really don't have a problem with an elf Rogue starting at 18 Dex, since the player spent 9 of his 22 points on that ability. It isn't game breaking, and he didn't cripple his character, either.
Buying stats does not equate to one-trick-pony characters. In our experience, rolling has created super heroes, by and large. We use point buy to keep power levels manageable, and relatively equal, across the party. |
| #31The_JesterAug 12, 2014 10:59:43 | One idea I had was to reduce the point buy to 23 and giving each class an ability score boost at 1st level. In theory, if you take the stat bump, you end up with something close to 27 points. Or you can opt for a feat at first level. |
| #32Evil_MouseAug 12, 2014 11:26:06 | im more in favor of 6 sets 3d6 6 times choose set you want+ |
| #33malisteenAug 12, 2014 11:49:42 | I like different ways in different games, so long as players are generally amenable to the used method. I've had a lot of fun with point buy - where you can basically choose your character - and with straight 3d6, take the results in order and do your best to make it work.
From what I've seen of 5e, I'd prefer a method that can guarantee (or at least make extremely likely) at least on score of 14+, pre-racial bonuses, but I wouldn't need it.
If I run a game, I'd be inclined to suggest something semi-heroic (a method that tends towards higher stats, and prevents terrible stats) while also being organic, like 4d6, drop the lowest, six times in a row, take them in order. If your highest score is a 13 or lower, or your total modifiers less than +1, then you may choose to re-roll the lot.
But if the players didn't want to run organic characters, I'd use another method. |
| #34autolycusAug 12, 2014 11:59:15 |
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| #35Goober4473Aug 12, 2014 12:54:17 | I just wrote myself a random abiltiy score generator in LUA that will roll using the 4d6 drop the lowest method, then modify scores randomly until they fit into 27 points. Since that requries prices for all possible scores, I added 18 at 20 points, 17 at 15 points, 16 at 12 points, 6-7 at -1 points, 4-5 at -2 points, and 3 at -3 points. That way, I can have all the fun of random rolling, without huge balance problems. Obviously a more average array will be less effective than one with extremes, but it's not too much of a concern.
In general though, I think I'll add the following rule: When customizing ability scores, you can purchase a 16 for 12 points, but you can never have an ability score greater than 17 after racial bonuses. That way, you can get a +3 modifier without a racial bonus, allowing a little more flexibility in race/class combinations, but you can't optimize your way to an 18, which would just bring the problem back to hugely favoring certain races. |
| #36smbakeresqAug 12, 2014 13:16:03 |
If you want to roll go there, anything over an average of 13 I have to approve. A 17,15,14,14,10,10 could get approved if you wanted to put one of the 14s in an "off" stat to develop character. A fighter with the noble background who wants to be a leader and puts one of the 14's into charisma for example. A rogue I allowed because he put the 10s into strength and constitution, playing the rogue as small smart but physically weak half elf spy with the noble background. With 18 dex, 16 int, 16 chr, 14 wis the character has a future like Littlefinger, and with history and investigation can really figure things out quickly.
Or the standard 27 pt buy. I will let you go to 29-30 points to bring an 8 to 10, they are heros, not forest gumps. However, if you roleplay a low score right, you will have continous inspiration from me.
HUMANS are in general much better with point buys. They can choose all odd numbers and then bump all of them up. Five 13's and a 9 becomes five 14's and a 10. Two 15's and three 11's with an 8 becomes two 16's, three 12's and a 9, a rogue or bard with 9 strength never hurt anybody and you can get alot of skills that way. I did allow a 28 pt buy, a 15, 13, 13, 11, 11,11 became 16,14,14,12,12, 12, thats a good generalist for a skill monkey.
The variant Humans also work good with point buys. I just built a rogue, 15, 13, 13, 12, 10, 10, bumped up 2 of the odds and then took the observant feat, so ended with 16 Dex, 14 wis, 14 Int, 12 con, 10 chr and 10 str. Seven total skills, I took perception and investigator, and then the observant feat for the other stat bump. Add it all up and I have a 16 in primary and 2 good secondaries tied into a feat that allows a passive perception and investigation score of 19, so good luck trying to surpise me with a trap or creature, and I wont miss mnay secret doors or hidden items. |
| #37TheLyonsAug 12, 2014 13:53:55 | I agree that it's lame to have to be a certain race/class combination to get a 17 in a stat with point buy. However, not EVERY race will start with a 17, but I definitely want more.
Here is how I got around this.
My players do the normal point buy. After point buy, they can allocate +1 to one of their stats that is below 17. I do not want them using this to getting an 18 starting, at all. That's right out. However, I would like to give them a chance to turn a +1 to a stat from a race into a +2 to get a 17, or to turn that 15 for odd race/class combinations into a 16, that way ALL characters can get their prime stat to 20 with no less than 2 ability increases, or 1 ability and a half-feat.
This opens the following race/ability combinations to get a 17 in a stat. (I'm not listing the +2s in this list, but will below this list):
Hill Dwarf - Wisdom High Elf - Intelligence Wood Elf - Wisdom Dark Elf - Charisma Lightfoot Halfling - Charisma Stout Halfling - Constitution Dragonborn - Charisma Forest Gnome - Dexterity Rock Gnome - Constitution Half-Orc - Constitution Tiefling - Intelligence Human & Half Elf- All ability scores (While I don't necessarily like this, I do disallow the variant humans.I am considering disallowing humans in my games just as most of my players are new and probably should play something other than human. On the fence, open to opinions from you all and my players. I might force humans and half-elfs to only choose a stat they have saving throw proficiency with at level 1, but again, not really sure.)
The following races already have +2 in the following stats. I am putting it here merely for reference.
Dwarf - Constitution Mountain Dwarf - Strength Elf - Dexterity Halfling - Dexterity Dragonborn - Strength Gnome - Intelligence Half-Elf - Charisma Half-Orc - Strength Tiefling - Charisma
I do realize that this will allow potentially two 17s. If a character wants to specialize like that and spend that much of their point buy on that, I will not stop them so long as they don't 100% min/max. I prefer but don't require that characters have one 8, but two is a bit much without a solid character concept for it and three is outrageous IMO.
I also want to point out that the original point buy plus race in the PHB does not allow for 17 wisdom unless you specifically choose variant human and use your feat in Observant or Resilient (although some classes will give a redundant saving throw proficiency). That's the ONLY way with PHB point buy (correct me if I'm wrong). With my point buy method, Wood Elf, Hill Dwarf, Half-Elf and Human could start with a 17 Wisdom. In fact, my system will allow anywhere between 3 to 5 more races with the ability to get a 17 in a starting stat over what exists now. |