Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 mellored Sep 10, 2015 9:53:45	Since there's many different ideas of what a ranger is, we should put more of the class into the sub-classes.   Shaman for the tank-pet (wow and pillars of eternity style). Eldrich knight (name?) for those who want spells. Beastmaster to double down on pets. Hunter for those who want martial.   IMO: 1: You can train pets, with a total CR upto 1/4 your ranger level.  You can also train one of your pets, increasing it's CR.  It gains..... (insert stat bonuses).   You get a pet by some kind of animal handling check. They know the commands "attack" and "come".  You can train pets to learn additional simple command or trick such as "fetch", "stay" or hooting when it sees another creature.  More complicated commands or tricks may count as 2.  Make an animal handling check with the DC of 10-Int of the creature+5 for each command they know.  The commands can be verbal or gestures.  If you fail by 10 or more, they forget a random command. It takes concentration to command your pets, and you can issue 1 command on your turn.  Multiple pets can follow the same command if they know it.  If you lose concentration the pets will only defend themselves taking the dodge or disingage action.  It takes an action to reassert control.  Pet's cannot be commanded to commit suicide or harm themselves.  Abuse of pets may cause them to leave at your DM's discresion. Natures Explorer.   2: Skirmisher's Stealth.  Revivify Beast 1/day.   3: Sub-Class *Path of the Spirit (totem spirit replaces your beast (hawk, wolf, or bear) revives durring a short rest). *Path of the land (1/3 druid or ranger spells) *Path of the beast (Pets CR upto 1/2 your ranger level). *Path of the hunter (fighting style, hunter's quarry; wis times per day).   4: ABI 5: Multi-Attack 6: You ignore movement penalty due to terrain. 7: Sub-Class *Path of the spirit (bears grants resistance, eagle grants bonus to-hit, wolf grants allies bonuses) *Path of the land (can cast without making a sound) *Path of the beast (Don't need concentraion for pets.  They will defend you if you are unconcious.  Best bond or Charm beast 1/short rest) *Path of the hunter (pass without a trace; wis times per day)   8: ABI 9: 1/turn you gain advantage to-hit a creature in difficult terrain. 10: If you spend 5 minutes you can make an ensarment trap.  DC 8+Wis+Proficency to spot it or break out of it.  It falls apart after a week. 11: Ambuscade 12: ABI 13: You gain advantage to Dex saves while in difficult terrain. 14: Tame magical beasts. 15: ??? 16: ABI 17: Sub-Class *Path of the spirit (bear grants extra damage, eagle grants flight, wolf grants allies bigger bonus) *Path of the land (cast+attack as a bonus action) *Path of the beast (dominate beast 1/short rest, can make it your new pet) *Path of the hunter (swift quiver, maybe 3 attacks).   18: ?? 19: ABI 20: Revive beast as an action.     Beastmaster Feat: You get the ranger's beast companion feature, with a CR limit of 1.  If you already have this feature, increase the total CR amount by 1. You can take this feat multiple times.
#2 Einlanzer Sep 10, 2015 14:16:22	IMO, they should definitely have tied spells to one of the subclasses and balanced generalized Rangers around not having them like they did with Fighter and Rogue.  That was the #1 mistake they made.  I will say I do not like the concept of shamans-as-rangers (they should be their own class or a druid variant), but some of your other concepts I agree with.  I'll post my take shortly.
#3 AndrewJO Sep 10, 2015 14:33:57	It makes sense to split ranger up into 3 subclasses like fighter and rogue. Not all rangers have pets, and not all rangers use magic. What do all rangers do? They're self sufficient, track their targets, and quietly take them out.
#4 strider13x Sep 10, 2015 14:58:46	I think all the mechanics can be tied into spells. Want cool beast powers? Make a spell. Want cool terrain effects? Make a spell. Really the current list of spells does much of what most people clamor for (hunters mark, it's your beast attacking for extra damage). Even cool terrain effects happen in the spells, it just takes some explaining to make it seem non magical. (spike growth, after attempting to flank target they get caught in a broad patch they didn't notice before). Really the spell-less ranger is almost the same as the regular one if you took hunters mark, goodberry, and detect poison. I also feel that animal compainions should be tied to feats rather than a single class. All classes should have access to war dogs and birds of prey, it simply takes some training to get there. my 2cp
#5 Elfcrusher Sep 10, 2015 16:00:00	Ok, let's play a game.  You get THREE subclasses of ranger.  What makes each one unique?    My picks: Pets Spells Dual-wielding Drow uh....I can't think of any others that I think are worthy of the class
#6 Xeviat-DM Sep 10, 2015 16:37:32	I like all rangers having spells. They've had spells for a very long time. The spell-less ranger has always been a variant until 4th Edition. But I do fully recognize that many people want them without spells. I think all rangers should have pets. Not everyone does. So, not directly commenting on mellored's write up just yet, I do respect the idea of putting those things into sub classes.   I do think strider13x's idea of making spells for things might be a good way of handling it as well. An animal companion spell would double as a "revive pet" spell, it would take up some of the ranger's spell resources in combat, but it could be a ritual for out of combat. It'd work like find familiar. Maybe it could be cast as a higher level spell slot for higher CR beasts.   Now, for some direct comments, having the pet require concentration is an EXCELLENT idea. Many of the ranger damaging spells are concentration, so that would limit their use. A few would still be in play, like summon barage, but that's significantly less problematic then hunter's mark on 2 or more attacks a round.
#7 mellored Sep 10, 2015 16:54:49	strider13x wrote:
#8 OB1 Sep 10, 2015 16:56:43	Really like this mellored.  As for the name for the magic using ranger, how about Primeval Knight?   Do think the Hunter is a bit under powered, though.  Perhaps give the hunter Ambuscade at 3rd level once per short rest.  At 11th level, give Hunter unlimted Ambuscade and everyone else 1 per short rest?    For the Primeval Knight, instead of the 7th level casting without sound, what if they could choose to "Warg" into their compainion (concentration, check if either beast or ranger takes damage), while in this state, the beast follows rules as per a Druid's Wild Shape ability but the beast gains Temporary Hit points equal to the Primeval Knights maximum hit points.  The Ranger's original body is unconcious while Warged.  If concentration is broken, the Ranger's mind returns to his own body (if alive)  At 17th level they can choose to do this once per long rest when they are dropped to 0 hit points or killed outright.  If his body is healed to at least 1 HP, the ranger can return to it by using a bonus action.  Otherwise, at the next dawn, the Ranger can return to his body (if it still exists) or is reborn out of his companion.  In either case, the awakened ranger will have the benefits of having had a full rest.
#9 Serpine Sep 10, 2015 17:00:16	Elfcrusher wrote:
#10 Elfcrusher Sep 10, 2015 18:26:38	Serpine wrote:
#11 Faradey Sep 10, 2015 19:27:51	Elfcrusher wrote:
#12 mellored Sep 10, 2015 20:27:43	traps come to mind, but i havn't seen any good way of using them since aventurers are nearly always on the offensive. any suggestions?
#13 cowleymen Sep 10, 2015 22:11:59	AndrewJO wrote:
#14 lawrencehoy Sep 10, 2015 23:20:50	I like your ideas for the Beast Master, as I've said before; but, I don't like the idea of forcing the beast companion on all Ranger sub-classes.   I'd keeep the Beast Master as the only sub-class with the companion; and, make the Shaman a Druid sub-class that summons a spirit animal, instead of taking on a Wild Shape form themselves.   I like the Concentration mechanic connection; but, I don't like making each pet follow the same command. I would allow individual commands, each requiring their own action, that don't require independant Concentration. I view the Concentration connection as "concentrating on your companions instead of a spell's effect that would otherwise require your concentration". You're limited to giving one command per action (whether that command is to all companions or to individual ones; they should be able to recognise an individually directed command).   I also like your pre-trained command suggestions, along with the training suggestions. Training could also be Downtime material.   I'd also prefer to keep the spellcasting/no spells Rangers as variants, at this point.   I don't like the idea of the Beastmaster feat; although, I wouldn't be opposed to Downtime acquisition/training of common pet types, such as dogs and falcons for combat purposes or other common pets for less combat focused purposes (monkeys/ferrets/weasels for rogue focused commands/purposes). I just think more exotic beasts as companions is more of a class feature type of thing.   Exotic mounts, on the other hand, should require a successful Animal Handling check to train, as well as a special feat (aerial riding, waterborne riding, etc.) for the character ability/training.
#15 Serpine Sep 11, 2015 0:24:53	mellored wrote:
#16 Elfcrusher Sep 11, 2015 5:59:31	lawrencehoy wrote:
#17 mellored Sep 11, 2015 6:03:04	lawrencehoy wrote:
#18 Elfcrusher Sep 11, 2015 6:23:40	mellored wrote:
#19 mellored Sep 11, 2015 6:37:56	Serpine wrote:
#20 Elfcrusher Sep 11, 2015 6:43:41	mellored wrote:
#21 mellored Sep 11, 2015 6:52:55	Elfcrusher wrote:
#22 Elfcrusher Sep 11, 2015 6:53:19	So here's what I'm currently liking (poaching liberally from mellored and others):   Base Class: Tough as nails with good saving throws Fighting Style  Stealth and ambush Resistance to surprise Difficult terrain Traps (syngery with difficult terrain) Tracking, travel, and survival Some kind of out-of-combat, non-spell healing, including detox Sub-classes Pet Spellcaster Shaman (sort of like current UA draft, maybe)  <-- but only because there's no Shaman/Witch-Doctor class.
#23 Einlanzer Sep 11, 2015 14:11:36	I actually do kind of like Beastmaster as a feat rather than a staple part of the ranger. One of the ranger's subclasses can emphasize having a pet but, simply having a pet shouldn't be restricted to the ranger class.   I actually think the existing ranger is mostly fine as it is and the UA write-up really takes it in the wrong direction. It really only stands in need of minor tweaks -  They should have some small combat bonus at 1st level that ties into Favored enemy. Their capstone ability needs a moderate buff. Hunter's mark should arguably be a feature rather than a spell (I like someone else's suggestion of bonus action up to Wis modifier times per day, just like Bardic Inspiration). Paladins probably shouldn't have access to it.   For hunters, melee suffers a bit too much compared to ranged.  Hunter choices should be condensed so you don't end up with trap builds. You should get both Whirlwind and Volley at 11th instead of having to pick one, and they should arguably get an expanded radius (10/15 instead of 5/10).  I like the idea of Rangers as sort of martial controllers - due to their solitary, guardian-esque nature, they are adept at facing many threats at one time. It gives them a schtick that isn't too specific (like dual-wielding or pets) but is thematically different enough from fighter and rogue to warrant being its own class.   For the beastmaster, I dunno, I honestly feel like they aren't as underpowered as everyone thinks. They basically get 3-4 attacks at 11th level just like the fighter and the utility can be very useful. I think the biggest issue is simply pet survivability combined with the baseline ranger issues above (poor capstone and pigeonholed utility).   I suppose I'm fine with spells being a baseline part of the class, but I think they overdid it a bit in 5e. Too much of a ranger's damage is tied up in their spellcasting when it really should be utilitarian.
#24 Xeviat-DM Sep 12, 2015 2:22:47	Einlanzer wrote:
#25 mellored Sep 12, 2015 11:01:32	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#26 RCanine Sep 13, 2015 11:34:53	Elfcrusher wrote:
#27 Elfcrusher Sep 13, 2015 12:48:59	Yeah, I the more I think about it the more I agree that Shaman shouldn't be any part of the Ranger class.  And I'd love to seel Spellcasting both relegated to a sub-class and be non-damaging.  Maybe buffing in indirect ways, but definitely not direct damage.    So my sub-classes would be:  - Beastmaster (pet class)  - "Spellcaster" (utility spells)  - Hunter (single target focus)   What I'm working on is a system for Ranger damage that would be somewhat similar to a rogue, in the sense of doing bonus damage when specific tactical situations arise, but with different mechanics to distinguish.  Each of the three sub-classes would have different ways of bringing about those tactical situations.  I'll post when I've got something more fleshed out.
#28 mellored Sep 13, 2015 13:42:56	seeker could be the spell casting sub-class. with control arrows
#29 lawrencehoy Sep 14, 2015 23:21:16	Einlanzer wrote:
#30 Orzel Sep 15, 2015 9:13:51	What? No wildshape rangers? No AnimalMan/Vixen ranger? No plant based rangers? Thread, i am disapponted in you. You get blueberries. No strawberries.
#31 Mechatarrasque Sep 15, 2015 10:01:57	Don't forget the ranger with "nature points" like the sorcerer, monk, or the mystic.  I am pretty sure it is in the rules that you can't have a homebrew class on the forums without adding a point system to it . Then you can convert spells to points (for the spell-less ranger), put points to up the hunters mark damage, pimp your pet (5 points for your wolf to do T-rex damage), or spend a point to get a new favored enemy or terrain.
#32 lawrencehoy Sep 15, 2015 12:40:07	Orzel wrote:
(Reply to #32) Mechatarrasque	lawrencehoy wrote:
#34 lawrencehoy Sep 15, 2015 14:07:37	Mechatarrasque wrote:
(Reply to #34) Mechatarrasque	lawrencehoy wrote:
#36 Orzel Sep 15, 2015 16:25:02	lawrencehoy wrote:
#37 ScuroNotte Sep 15, 2015 19:32:57	The changes my group made are   1st.  Gain 2 terrains for Natural Explorer (Can't double Survival skill)   2nd. Survival Expertise   3rd. Primeval Awareness doesn't require spell slot usage. Gives general direction. Number of usage based on Wisdom modifier. Skirmishers Stealth   11th. Evasion gained (Not part of Hunter's Path) To Hunter's path, allow bonus attack made with Two-weapon fighting part of the attack action   14th. Vanish - add Dash as a bonus action   20th. Foe Slayer used against any foe.   Also added Domain Spells based on Archetype taken.    Debating on the Wis & Con Saving Throws.
#38 Thunaer Sep 15, 2015 20:02:03	Paths Beastmaster - Pet Druidical Knight - Melee with spells (Natures Pally) Survivalist - Pure melee badass
#39 lawrencehoy Sep 15, 2015 21:22:05	Orzel wrote: