No Ability Boosts, but Feats* - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Timeshadows Sep 14, 2014 10:30:46	Hi, I've been remembering my old 1e AD&D days, where gaining Ability Score increases were only rare occurrances of magic item or through Wish spells. I think the effect on the game was that one stopped worrying about what one didn't have and concentrated on how to maximise the strengths of the PC, as well as more lateral thinking about how to be better prepared for contingencies, as well as group dynamics (not to mention using 10' poles to check for traps). Imagine, if you will, 5e without Ability Score boosts, and instead, every four levels being only Feats. Whatever one's stats are will be the way barring generousity of the GM in magic item selection, or luck of the dice on the MI lists granting Manuals of Gainful whatsit, or the like. Everything else works the same as RAW 5e, just without the escallation of, 'I think it is more important to get your Stats to 20 as fast as possible.' Sound interesting to any of the old timers? The OSR crowd? New D&D players? --I think I'm going that route with my gaming group.
#2 Devils-Advocate Sep 14, 2014 10:37:47	I think it sounds like a lot of fun, and I've considered using that house rule myself many times, though I haven't tried it yet. I probably count as a "new" D&D player. I started with 3.5, couldn't get into it, tried again with 4th, got hooked, and am currently playing 5th and loving it.
#3 GladiusLegis Sep 14, 2014 10:49:45	I'd be interested in playing such a game. Although the one major side-effect is that the feats that come with a +1 stat boost become much more valuable.
#4 Dwalon Sep 14, 2014 10:50:48	Being a former 1e player, I will chime in. In 1e, the stats were less important unless the tank got exceptional strength (over 18). At a 17 STR, the combatant was +1 to hit and +1 damage. In that edition of D&D, however, the opponent hit points were not scaled upwards as they are in 3e, 4e, and now 5e. My parties at level 10 (with only moderate to low magic items) would mow through an army of 100 orcs in 30 minutes time. So, yeah, stats did not matter because that +1 actually meant something. Now, with hitpoints scaled upwards so high, any army of 100 opponents will literally take hours to chew through, and be virtually impossible given the lower relative power of any adventuring level 10 party. My point is: Stats in every edition have become more and more important in survival because of how the game has changed / been scaled. Limiting stats to 20 ensures HOURS long fights against multiple enemies. With +5 damage on basic attacks, an army of orcs will still take forever to chew through. We can debate if that is good or bad for the game, but that is not what your proposal is about.
#5 Lawolf Sep 14, 2014 11:22:57	I would prefer this to be the case as well. Ability boosts are the best option for most PCs, but they are boring. I hate boring.
#6 DemoMonkey Sep 14, 2014 11:38:56	When you build a character at 20th level for theory-crafting purposes, you always max your main stat to 20. When you actually have to play a character, and say to yourself "Hmmm. Wat do I want to take for the next 4 levels, which might be a couple of months of play time. A flavourless +2 stat, or a cool sounding feat that does something unique that I will enjoy playing", the choice is almost always the feat. The main original reason for the sat boost option was "Some people don't want to play with feats." I think the OP will find if they actually run a campaign from first level onwards, the players will take feats far more than they take stat boosts.
#7 BW0222 Sep 14, 2014 11:39:03	I don't see the need, but it isn't that upsetting. Some feats already give +1 ability increases, which balances the fact they are much weaker than other feats. This would either require an overhaul of those feats, or else accepting some ability score increases are necessary. It would also likely affect point--buy or rolling -- making this really unbalanced, encouraging min-maxing of attributes, and more strongly favoring humans or +2 attribute classes. I also don't think it is needed, in the sense that many players would voluntarily take the feat anyway and the 20 cap would prevent anyone from getting that powerful based on attribute. IMO, there isn't a huge difference between a +3 dex, and a +5 dex bonus at 8th-level or 12th-level. It is only a +2 difference. It isn't even equal to having proficiency in a dex-based skill at that level. Someone with the 16 dex, would likely be good enough at most skills, attacks, saves, etc. at those levels given that DCs, ACs, and spell DCs do not increase so heavily at higher levels.
#8 Trance-Zg Sep 14, 2014 11:50:24	in the case of feats with +1 ability attached:maybe pack two of those feats together as a single feat choice.
#9 pauln6 Sep 14, 2014 11:57:34	We're converting our old 1e PCs to 5e. We could just take the stats we rolled, although if I'm honest, I think we often rolled and rolled and rolled until we got good stats when we were kids but I was worried that feats which could boost stats further would just give us silly good stats. Instead we've done points buy with 4 extra points aiming to end up with stats as close as we can to our original characters. Most of the PCs have ended up with slightly lower stats overall but you get more bonuses from your lower stats in 5e so it should be fine. You might want to consider allowing the players to points buy their stats to 16 or 17 at level 1 though to create a bit more variety. Only those with very specific builds in mind would want to do it anyway. Most of your saving throws end up terrible.
#10 Zardnaar Sep 14, 2014 12:23:33	I couold quite happily play without stat boosts at all including the feats that boost stats. Leave them to things like magic fountains, wish spells and items like Gauntlets of Ogre Power.
#11 Timeshadows Sep 15, 2014 7:21:55	I really appreciate all the input. I can see the point about the scaling, but, I think I'm willing to 'risk' it. As far as the Array and Point-Buy, I think I'd stick with 4d6-L, arrange as desired, which I used to use in my old AD&D games. The OSR crowd I know on Google+ often eschew anything but 3d6 in order, but so far, they haven't balked at 5e's base system. My campaign is very Old School in that it is a Sci-Fantasy mash-up, and folks do get a few front-end boosts, but I think I prefer the Ability Score increases to remain event-based rather than regular features. Thanks for the encouragement regarding the Feats on the 4s; I think it will be fun and characters will feel more differentiated. I'll report back with my findings. :D
#12 Llenlleawg Sep 15, 2014 12:32:30	Timeshadows wrote:
#13 Timeshadows Sep 15, 2014 14:10:19	Llenlleawg wrote:
#14 Ahglock Sep 15, 2014 14:25:39	DemoMonkey wrote:
#15 Rhenny Sep 15, 2014 17:59:16	Clearly, taking feats is much more interesting than taking ability boosts. I think it could work either way. The one problem you might run into is that fighters get so many opportunities to ability boost/take a feat that they might get too unwieldy once a PC has 4 or 5 or more feats instead of some feats and some attribute boosts.
#16 Thank_Dog Sep 15, 2014 18:27:00	The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. I think there needs to be more +1 ability feats though as having a 20 in a primary, especially attack, stat is important.
#17 Nesian42Ryukaiel Sep 16, 2014 2:01:31	I've listed the feats that give partial A.S. boosts for reference; Athlete: Str Dex Actor: Cha Durable: Con Heavily Armored: Str Heavy Armor Master: Str Keen Mind: Int Linguist: Int Moderately Armored: Str Dex Observant: Int Wis Resilient: Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha Tavern Brawler: Str Con Weapon Master: Str Dex ...and found out that you really need a good roll, if any, when generating your PC that uses CON, WIS, of CHA majorly, or kiss good-bye to your maximum(20) A.S. And to put the icing on the cake, Resilient will usually be meaningless especially for classes who major in the two latter ones and STR, as such classes usually are already proficient with the save which the feat should be providing with. Plus a heapload of redundant feats for the poor STR fighter.
(Reply to #13) Llenlleawg	Timeshadows wrote:
#19 Timeshadows Sep 16, 2014 7:12:18	Nesian42Ryukaiel wrote:
#20 Karnos Sep 16, 2014 7:24:00	I hope you are prepared for a party of 5 wizards. Weapon attacking classes are very dependant on main stat. For example, a fighter with 20 strength does an incredible double the damage of a fighter with 12 strength with a longsword. Casters, not so much. While some features may allow them to add ability score bonus, and spell saves are based on casting ability score, a failed save often still does some damage and the overall effect of +5 damage on a 8d6 damage spell is very small compared to that same +5 damage when applied to a 1d8 damage attack.
#21 Timeshadows Sep 16, 2014 7:24:35	Ahglock wrote:
#22 Timeshadows Sep 16, 2014 7:40:22	Karnos wrote:
#23 Lawolf Sep 16, 2014 8:28:31	Note also that most of the feats that provide an ability boost are not the "optimal" feat choice for most PCs. This means PC power levels will increase far more gradually. The more I think about this variant, the more I like it. Spellcasters could use a little boost though. Maybe have this as a possible feat choice that can be taken only once: Paragon Choose 2 of your ability scores. Each of those increase by +1
(Reply to #20) estar	Karnos wrote:
#25 Karnos Sep 16, 2014 8:38:10	estar wrote:
(Reply to #22) estar	Timeshadows wrote:
#27 Trance-Zg Sep 16, 2014 9:31:37	This would be good idea. Maybe add posibility to buy 16 in a stat at a cost of 12 pts, and increase point buy pool to 32-34.
#28 Timeshadows Sep 16, 2014 11:15:17	Trance-Zg wrote:
#29 spelley Sep 16, 2014 11:26:41	If people are worried about spells becoming "too good" because they are less Ability Score dependent, then just make it so that spellcastsing classes do not learn spells "innately" and must rely on scrolls again. This would also tie in with the old-school vibe and allows effective policing of abilities that would be harmful in that kind of environment. Also brings back quests for spells which is nice.
#30 Lawolf Sep 16, 2014 11:36:24	Timeshadows wrote:
#31 Timeshadows Sep 16, 2014 13:47:56	spelley wrote:
#32 Timeshadows Sep 16, 2014 13:51:11	Lawolf wrote:
#33 Lawolf Sep 16, 2014 13:58:28	Timeshadows wrote:
#34 Timeshadows Sep 16, 2014 14:06:56	Lawolf wrote:
#35 Zardnaar Sep 16, 2014 14:15:09	Timeshadows wrote:
#36 Lawolf Sep 16, 2014 14:20:54	Timeshadows wrote:
#37 awaken_D_M_golem Sep 16, 2014 14:37:42	I mean, so long as everybody (DM + PCs) know about it ahead of time, it's not a problem. Choice wise, you could put the Abilty Score bump into 1 of 6 stats (=6), or 2 of 6 stats (=30), for a total of 36 to choose from. Feats ... I'd have to get my kitty avatar out to count above 20. Option #3 is multiclassing in an oddball fashion max of 3 levels per, to minimize the chances of Stats or Feats. That's perhaps 1000+ combos to choose right now. Oh and no icky 9th level spells. Or those icky 8th level spells. I don't like those nasty 7th level spells either ; etc ... And people ?! Don't get me started on those non-variant people. I hate those guys, no matter what their alignment is.
#38 Timeshadows Sep 16, 2014 20:06:05	awaken_D_M_golem wrote:
#39 Moot_Dundle Sep 16, 2014 21:45:58	Timeshadows wrote:
#40 Timeshadows Sep 17, 2014 10:34:27	Edited for clarity Moot_Dundle wrote:
#41 Timeshadows Sep 17, 2014 19:53:27	CR 4 Encounter- Guardian of the Fountain by Timeshadows "Four sets of stairs lead down into this 20' x 20' x 15' room, with the floor five feet lower than the previous area. The construction is of a different stone than any other area seen so far, and the most noticeable feature is the fountain in its centre. The fountain is unusually geometric and is fashioned from what appears to be a metallic or crystalline material that interacts with the light in a strange fashion; scattering, diffusing, and sending muted rainbows about the chamber. The air is cool and humid, with a faint strange but not unpleasant scent. The dark material is dappled with droplets of what appears to be pure water, and is slick to the touch."
#42 Moot_Dundle Sep 17, 2014 19:55:06	Timeshadows wrote:

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Timeshadows

Sep 14, 2014 10:30:46

Hi,

I've been remembering my old 1e AD&D days, where gaining Ability Score increases were only rare occurrances of magic item or through Wish spells. I think the effect on the game was that one stopped worrying about what one didn't have and concentrated on how to maximise the strengths of the PC, as well as more lateral thinking about how to be better prepared for contingencies, as well as group dynamics (not to mention using 10' poles to check for traps).

Imagine, if you will, 5e without Ability Score boosts, and instead, every four levels being only Feats. Whatever one's stats are will be the way barring generousity of the GM in magic item selection, or luck of the dice on the MI lists granting Manuals of Gainful whatsit, or the like.

Everything else works the same as RAW 5e, just without the escallation of, 'I think it is more important to get your Stats to 20 as fast as possible.'

Sound interesting to any of the old timers? The OSR crowd? New D&D players?

--I think I'm going that route with my gaming group.

Devils-Advocate

Sep 14, 2014 10:37:47

I think it sounds like a lot of fun, and I've considered using that house rule myself many times, though I haven't tried it yet. I probably count as a "new" D&D player. I started with 3.5, couldn't get into it, tried again with 4th, got hooked, and am currently playing 5th and loving it.

GladiusLegis

Sep 14, 2014 10:49:45

I'd be interested in playing such a game.

Although the one major side-effect is that the feats that come with a +1 stat boost become much more valuable.

Dwalon

Sep 14, 2014 10:50:48

Being a former 1e player, I will chime in. In 1e, the stats were less important unless the tank got exceptional strength (over 18). At a 17 STR, the combatant was +1 to hit and +1 damage. In that edition of D&D, however, the opponent hit points were not scaled upwards as they are in 3e, 4e, and now 5e. My parties at level 10 (with only moderate to low magic items) would mow through an army of 100 orcs in 30 minutes time. So, yeah, stats did not matter because that +1 actually meant something.

Now, with hitpoints scaled upwards so high, any army of 100 opponents will literally take hours to chew through, and be virtually impossible given the lower relative power of any adventuring level 10 party.

My point is: Stats in every edition have become more and more important in survival because of how the game has changed / been scaled. Limiting stats to 20 ensures HOURS long fights against multiple enemies. With +5 damage on basic attacks, an army of orcs will still take forever to chew through. We can debate if that is good or bad for the game, but that is not what your proposal is about.

Lawolf

Sep 14, 2014 11:22:57

I would prefer this to be the case as well. Ability boosts are the best option for most PCs, but they are boring. I hate boring.

DemoMonkey

Sep 14, 2014 11:38:56

When you build a character at 20th level for theory-crafting purposes, you always max your main stat to 20.

When you actually have to play a character, and say to yourself "Hmmm. Wat do I want to take for the next 4 levels, which might be a couple of months of play time. A flavourless +2 stat, or a cool sounding feat that does something unique that I will enjoy playing", the choice is almost always the feat.

The main original reason for the sat boost option was "Some people don't want to play with feats."

I think the OP will find if they actually run a campaign from first level onwards, the players will take feats far more than they take stat boosts.

BW0222

Sep 14, 2014 11:39:03

I don't see the need, but it isn't that upsetting.

Some feats already give +1 ability increases, which balances the fact they are much weaker than other feats. This would either require an overhaul of those feats, or else accepting some ability score increases are necessary. It would also likely affect point--buy or rolling -- making this really unbalanced, encouraging min-maxing of attributes, and more strongly favoring humans or +2 attribute classes. I also don't think it is needed, in the sense that many players would voluntarily take the feat anyway and the 20 cap would prevent anyone from getting that powerful based on attribute.

IMO, there isn't a huge difference between a +3 dex, and a +5 dex bonus at 8th-level or 12th-level. It is only a +2 difference. It isn't even equal to having proficiency in a dex-based skill at that level. Someone with the 16 dex, would likely be good enough at most skills, attacks, saves, etc. at those levels given that DCs, ACs, and spell DCs do not increase so heavily at higher levels.

Trance-Zg

Sep 14, 2014 11:50:24

in the case of feats with +1 ability attached:maybe pack two of those feats together as a single feat choice.

pauln6

Sep 14, 2014 11:57:34

We're converting our old 1e PCs to 5e. We could just take the stats we rolled, although if I'm honest, I think we often rolled and rolled and rolled until we got good stats when we were kids but I was worried that feats which could boost stats further would just give us silly good stats. Instead we've done points buy with 4 extra points aiming to end up with stats as close as we can to our original characters. Most of the PCs have ended up with slightly lower stats overall but you get more bonuses from your lower stats in 5e so it should be fine.

You might want to consider allowing the players to points buy their stats to 16 or 17 at level 1 though to create a bit more variety. Only those with very specific builds in mind would want to do it anyway. Most of your saving throws end up terrible.

#10

Zardnaar

Sep 14, 2014 12:23:33

I couold quite happily play without stat boosts at all including the feats that boost stats. Leave them to things like magic fountains, wish spells and items like Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

#11

Timeshadows

Sep 15, 2014 7:21:55

I really appreciate all the input.

I can see the point about the scaling, but, I think I'm willing to 'risk' it.

As far as the Array and Point-Buy, I think I'd stick with 4d6-L, arrange as desired, which I used to use in my old AD&D games.

The OSR crowd I know on Google+ often eschew anything but 3d6 in order, but so far, they haven't balked at 5e's base system.

My campaign is very Old School in that it is a Sci-Fantasy mash-up, and folks do get a few front-end boosts, but I think I prefer the Ability Score increases to remain event-based rather than regular features. Thanks for the encouragement regarding the Feats on the 4s; I think it will be fun and characters will feel more differentiated.

I'll report back with my findings. :D

#12

Llenlleawg

Sep 15, 2014 12:32:30

Timeshadows wrote:

#13

Timeshadows

Sep 15, 2014 14:10:19

Llenlleawg wrote:

#14

Ahglock

Sep 15, 2014 14:25:39

DemoMonkey wrote:

#15

Rhenny

Sep 15, 2014 17:59:16

Clearly, taking feats is much more interesting than taking ability boosts. I think it could work either way.

The one problem you might run into is that fighters get so many opportunities to ability boost/take a feat that they might get too unwieldy once a PC has 4 or 5 or more feats instead of some feats and some attribute boosts.

#16

Thank_Dog

Sep 15, 2014 18:27:00

The more I think about it, the more I like this idea. I think there needs to be more +1 ability feats though as having a 20 in a primary, especially attack, stat is important.

#17

Nesian42Ryukaiel

Sep 16, 2014 2:01:31

I've listed the feats that give partial A.S. boosts for reference;

Athlete: Str Dex
Actor: Cha
Durable: Con
Heavily Armored: Str
Heavy Armor Master: Str
Keen Mind: Int
Linguist: Int
Moderately Armored: Str Dex
Observant: Int Wis
Resilient: Str Dex Con Int Wis Cha
Tavern Brawler: Str Con
Weapon Master: Str Dex

...and found out that you really need a good roll, if any, when generating your PC that uses CON, WIS, of CHA majorly, or kiss good-bye to your maximum(20) A.S. And to put the icing on the cake, Resilient will usually be meaningless especially for classes who major in the two latter ones and STR, as such classes usually are already proficient with the save which the feat should be providing with. Plus a heapload of redundant feats for the poor STR fighter.

(Reply to #13)

Llenlleawg

Timeshadows wrote:

#19

Timeshadows

Sep 16, 2014 7:12:18

Nesian42Ryukaiel wrote:

#20

Karnos

Sep 16, 2014 7:24:00

I hope you are prepared for a party of 5 wizards.

Weapon attacking classes are very dependant on main stat. For example, a fighter with 20 strength does an incredible double the damage of a fighter with 12 strength with a longsword.

Casters, not so much. While some features may allow them to add ability score bonus, and spell saves are based on casting ability score, a failed save often still does some damage and the overall effect of +5 damage on a 8d6 damage spell is very small compared to that same +5 damage when applied to a 1d8 damage attack.

#21

Timeshadows

Sep 16, 2014 7:24:35

Ahglock wrote:

#22

Timeshadows

Sep 16, 2014 7:40:22

Karnos wrote:

#23

Lawolf

Sep 16, 2014 8:28:31

Note also that most of the feats that provide an ability boost are not the "optimal" feat choice for most PCs. This means PC power levels will increase far more gradually.

The more I think about this variant, the more I like it. Spellcasters could use a little boost though. Maybe have this as a possible feat choice that can be taken only once:

Paragon

Choose 2 of your ability scores. Each of those increase by +1

(Reply to #20)

estar

Karnos wrote:

#25

Karnos

Sep 16, 2014 8:38:10

estar wrote:

(Reply to #22)

estar

Timeshadows wrote:

#27

Trance-Zg

Sep 16, 2014 9:31:37

This would be good idea.

Maybe add posibility to buy 16 in a stat at a cost of 12 pts, and increase point buy pool to 32-34.

#28

Timeshadows

Sep 16, 2014 11:15:17

Trance-Zg wrote:

#29

spelley

Sep 16, 2014 11:26:41

If people are worried about spells becoming "too good" because they are less Ability Score dependent, then just make it so that spellcastsing classes do not learn spells "innately" and must rely on scrolls again. This would also tie in with the old-school vibe *and* allows effective policing of abilities that would be harmful in that kind of environment. Also brings back quests for spells which is nice.

#30

Lawolf

Sep 16, 2014 11:36:24

Timeshadows wrote:

#31

Timeshadows

Sep 16, 2014 13:47:56

spelley wrote:

#32

Timeshadows

Sep 16, 2014 13:51:11

Lawolf wrote:

#33

Lawolf

Sep 16, 2014 13:58:28

Timeshadows wrote:

#34

Timeshadows

Sep 16, 2014 14:06:56

Lawolf wrote:

#35

Zardnaar

Sep 16, 2014 14:15:09

Timeshadows wrote:

#36

Lawolf

Sep 16, 2014 14:20:54

Timeshadows wrote:

#37

awaken_D_M_golem

Sep 16, 2014 14:37:42

I mean, so long as everybody (DM + PCs) know about it ahead of time, it's not a problem.

Choice wise, you could put the Abilty Score bump into 1 of 6 stats (=6), or 2 of 6 stats (=30), for a total of 36 to choose from. Feats ... I'd have to get my kitty avatar out to count above 20. Option #3 is multiclassing in an oddball fashion max of 3 levels per, to minimize the chances of Stats or Feats. That's perhaps 1000+ combos to choose right now. Oh and no icky 9th level spells. Or those icky 8th level spells. I don't like those nasty 7th level spells either ; etc ...

And people ?!

Don't get me started on those non-variant people. I hate those guys, no matter what their alignment is.

#38

Timeshadows

Sep 16, 2014 20:06:05

awaken_D_M_golem wrote:

#39

Moot_Dundle

Sep 16, 2014 21:45:58

Timeshadows wrote:

#40

Timeshadows

Sep 17, 2014 10:34:27

Edited for clarity

Moot_Dundle wrote:

#41

Timeshadows

Sep 17, 2014 19:53:27

CR 4 Encounter-

Guardian of the Fountain

by Timeshadows

"Four sets of stairs lead down into this 20' x 20' x 15' room, with the floor five feet lower than the previous area. The construction is of a different stone than any other area seen so far, and the most noticeable feature is the fountain in its centre. The fountain is unusually geometric and is fashioned from what appears to be a metallic or crystalline material that interacts with the light in a strange fashion; scattering, diffusing, and sending muted rainbows about the chamber. The air is cool and humid, with a faint strange but not unpleasant scent. The dark material is dappled with droplets of what appears to be pure water, and is slick to the touch."

#42

Moot_Dundle

Sep 17, 2014 19:55:06

Timeshadows wrote: