| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1JonAlfarlingaMay 05, 2015 10:40:48 | Ok, so it is another beast master thread. I'll admit to jumping on the "beast masters suck" band wagon.
Having said that, while dreaming up ways to improve the beast master, I came up with the idea that the companion could be thought of as simply another weapon for the ranger. Scimitar, longbow, or wolf, which one do want this round? The more I thought about it the more convinced I became that that is exactly what the designers intended. It explains why the companion always occupies a ranger attack action, and why the beast has such low hit points. Also, by the lack of summon monster spells, I get the feeling the devs wanted to limit players to controling one character 95% of the time. Removing the independence of the companion fits right in with that.
But most of the beasts available as companions don't bring exceptional attacks, especially at high levels, once the ranger gets magic weapons and ability increases. True, the CR 1/4 beasts have attacks that are comparable to weapon damage attacks (panther = 1d6 and 1d4), but their strength bonuses tend to be lower than the PC's Str/Dex and they don't improve with level.
How would you change the beast master to better fit this design philosophy? I'm thinking the beast should get ability bonuses when the ranger does, and ensure that magical collars and such to boost the companion are a part of the game world. Further, and this I expect will be controversial, I would remove the illusion that the beast is a separate entity in combat; the beast only attacks when the ranger gives up an attack and may use as many of the ranger's attacks as desired. The beast uses the ranger's reaction if it makes an opportunity attack. This change would free the beast up to get more powerful attacks. The Hunter archetype makes the ranger a utility and defense character, perhaps the Beast Master should be a DPR monster with some out of combat utility. |
| #2iserithMay 05, 2015 11:38:51 | I recently created an 8th-level beastmaster ranger for my one-shot viking scenario, Fimbulvetr. Ragna Wolfsbane was a badass and it showed in play. Decent damage (1d8+6 per attack with longsword, 1d8+3 with longbow, plus Hunter's Mark), AC 19, spells, and good skills. Her companion was a swarm of ravens which came in very handy for Help actions (bonus action) and it was thematically appropriate (Odin, ravens, etc.). The player even found a good use for Primeval Awareness during the scenario. I have a lower level beast master ranger myself, Red Creek Rufus, who is super fun to play. He throws a net while his ornery boar, Belvedere, knocks them down. A restrained, prone enemy is pretty well screwed.
So I really have no complaints about beastmaster rangers. I think they're versatile enough to be useful in the hands of a player who uses them well and are particularly useful in games that emphasize exploration. I would add that as far as the beast companion goes, maybe they're just supposed to die sometimes. After all, if the DM is having monsters attack the companion, that's damage that's not getting applied to the ranger and his or her friends. If the ranger's companion dies, this creates an opportunity to go and find another one, perhaps a different one to keep things interesting and varied. |
| #3KentusMay 05, 2015 12:26:26 | How I would change the beastmaster? Simply, by changing the train of thoughts a bit.
The most powerful ranger I've seen yet was Althin, a drow ranger beastmaster. He had a pet spider (challenge 0). This pet spider didn't do much in combat, unless it was planted on the face of an enemy, who failed a wisdom saving throw and cried horribly, because he had a tarantula on his face. But for fighting, he had his hand crossbow and rapier.
Althin didn't need to scout for himself, since he had the Beast Sense spell. A spider in the woods, in the underdark or even in dungeons or towns isn't that easy to see and even if you do, you won't necessarily kill it immediately. Althin always knew the numbers of his enemies and where they are positioned, so he and his party were able to plan their ambushes. If he wanted to see, where the enemies are going, he put his spider with Beast Sense in their luggage. Then the EE-Player Companion came and he got Beast Bound, so he could even remote control his spider to a certain degree. Whenever a dungeon was to be explored, the spider used spiderclimb and its tiny size to scout ahead, often with Beast Senses, so that Althin was able to see the next room himself. This strategy would be adapted by a druid in another group. When the pet spider dies (which is harder than you think with ranger level x4), he just picked up another one and made it his companion. Spiders are everywhere.
And spiders aren't too bad as nightwatching. So a portion of the day the spider slept.
Althin did know, that beastmasters are masters at exploration and their bound is something you should see as an out of combat bonus. Even though he didn't hit the high levels, he just knew how to stay alert and his choice of options made it much easier for the rest of the party, since there were less ressources to be used. Sometimes power is just the ability to know beforehand what you're getting in and to have the abilities to take advantage out of it. In this case, good stealth and athletics. |
| #4melloredMay 05, 2015 13:38:30 | I would still just add a revivify beast spell. |
| #5CCSMay 05, 2015 16:07:28 | I wouldn't change the beast at all. I'd just allow the beast to act/attack/etc independantly of whatever the ranger is doing. For convenience the beast would do its thing on the same initiative count as the ranger. |
| (Reply to #2)Serpine |
|
| #7iserithMay 05, 2015 18:20:10 |
|
| #8JohnLynchMay 05, 2015 18:59:05 | I've got a blog post for this next week. The summary version is that I don't think you need to houserule anything for the animal companion. What you do need to do is clarify a couple of rules that are a bit incomplete.
A beastmaster represents a 17.5% increase in HP (it represents 0% increase against area attacks and a 35% increase against physical attacks once you take into account the lower AC). The beastmaster also represents an increase in damage once you get to level 8. My math is here: Level 3: 4.23 DPR OR 8.87 DPR (animal companion doesn't attack)
So what good is a beast before then? It can help act as a guard for squishies at the back and help control enemy movement by blocking it.
So what are the rules clarifications? Beastmaster says animal companions add your proficiency bonus in saves they're proficient in. No CR 1/4 or less creature has proficiency in a saving throw. This is an oversight (IMO) so I would adjudicate that animal companions get proficiency in 2 saves. It can either be the same saves as the ranger or their two highest ability scores (making sure one of the saves is a good save while the other is a bad save). Mike Mearles has also said animal companions should be able to spend HD. However he neglected to say how. So I would rule that a ranger can use his own hit die to heal the animal companion (tending to it's wounds). |
| #9RCanineMay 05, 2015 20:50:55 | A while back I did the math on ranger beast companion damage:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fhfmtOXkChw5Gs0F-UsZg6KdEuHYyPApw3JzKOrsRvs/edit?usp=sharing
The comparison is pretty favorable for the beast, and the scaling is pretty elegant, actually. The wolf is good but the flying snake as better, but any beast is viable. Plus the way they scale means that they're deceptively tough.
My only house rule would be for their hit dice, since at 20th level they still only have 2 hit dice to heal between fights. |
| (Reply to #9)JohnLynch |
|
| #11RCanineMay 05, 2015 21:23:17 |
|
| #12Lord_VentnorMay 05, 2015 21:52:06 | One thing I'd allow is for the Animal Companion to add the Ranger's Proficiency bonus to the DCs of any ability that they had. So, the wolf's knocking prone ability, the poisonous snake's venom, etc. |
| #13melloredMay 06, 2015 4:34:24 | the offense is fine, if a bit clunky, the issue is getting disarmed. no other class takes 8 hours to pick up a weapon. and you don't even get to carry a backup. now sure, you got extra hit points out of it, but that's still q big issue. |
| #14melloredMay 06, 2015 4:34:24 | the offense is fine, if a bit clunky, the issue is getting disarmed. no other class takes 8 hours to pick up a weapon. and you don't even get to carry a backup. now sure, you got extra hit points out of it, but that's still q big issue. |
| #15RCanineMay 06, 2015 8:19:27 | FWIW, Pillars of Eternity has a great model for the beast companion:
I think that would balance it pretty well. |
| #16melloredMay 06, 2015 8:32:40 |
|
| #17RCanineMay 06, 2015 9:10:21 |
|
| #18melloredMay 06, 2015 9:20:28 |
|
| #19RCanineMay 07, 2015 3:04:47 |
|
| #20melloredMay 07, 2015 5:24:42 |
|
| #21kalilMay 07, 2015 6:04:23 |
|
| #22melloredMay 07, 2015 6:35:20 |
|
| #23kalilMay 07, 2015 7:12:20 |
|
| (Reply to #21)Serpine |
|
| #25LordTwigMay 07, 2015 11:46:31 |
|
| #26SolarazhadeMay 08, 2015 16:15:16 | I'm face palming at some of these damage comparisons. You are comparing your animal companions damage to mundane weapons. Meanwhile the stalker ranger is now doing an extra 1d8 damage on wounded targets with it's +3 flamebrand etc... And you and your beast are going up against creatures that have resistance to damage from non magical sources aka all of your beasts attacks because it isn't magical.
You need to include the opportunity of going stalker ranger over beast master ranger and of equipping magical weapons.
3rd level - 20th level +4.5 damage to all ranger attacks from colossus slayer, which is always passively in effect assuming you're not hitting something that has never been touched in combat (aka ready an action and let your buddy hit it first).
6th level - 11th level +1 damage to all ranger attacks from your first magical weapon. 6th level - 20th level cut all of the beasts damage in half as they start to encounter creatures resistant to non magical damage.
12th level - 16th level +2 damage to the ranger as the ranger enhances to a +2 magical weapon
17th level - 20th level +3 damage to the ranger as they upgrade to a +3 weapon.
All that is assuming you don't get a flame or frost brand etc... Which could potentially be another 3.5 damage / swing.
How does your damage comparison match up now?
For those saying that they are against the "Action" requirement to command their beast I would say be careful. From 1st to 5th level giving them a constant source of extra damage is pretty powerful and making it an Action is actually a good balancing tool. At higher levels you could steal a mechanic from Animate Dead. It's a bonus action to give a command but the beast continues to carry out that command until it is completed, additionally if it perceives an attack against it then it will defend itself by counter attacking until the threat is gone (shows submission or dies). In this way you could command your beast to Kill Target X and it would spend every turn attacking that target if it could. You would only be losing 1 bonus action per target. In some fights this would be a considerable damage increase and in others the beast would only be dealing half damage but it would still be beneficial. Unlike Animate Dead your beast doesn't automatically understand anything you communicate but for sure the kill command is understood.
I would take the 7th level mechanic and replace the 11th level ability with it. Your beast won't ever get 2 attacks but the attacks he does have are a lot more resource efficient now. The animate dead spell, after all, has been available to casters now for 2 levels and is a single spell that is superior to an entire class archetype, if any one is questioning the balance.
The level 15 ability could remain unchanged.
Also, to the person who commented about them only being able to heal 2 HD, rangers can potentially cast healing on their beast companions too, so there is an already ingrained class mechanic for healing your companion. If you think of the beasts HP as temp hp for the ranger than giving them even more on every short rest is pretty powerful. Probably better to make them dependant on the rangers other resources to maintain it.
To summarize, these changes would make it so ultimately the damage from your beast is superior to the damage from the Colossus Slayer stalker feature but it requires a couple of your features invested before it happens. Additionally you get the utility and added HP from your companion. Meanwhile the stalker is getting defensive upgrades. In fights against creatures with resistance to mundane physical damage the colossus slayer may even have the damage advantage, in other fights the beast master has the damage advantage. |
| #27LordTwigMay 08, 2015 16:47:45 | In before the: "The game doesn't assume magic weapons!" comment.
Well I know my group will be getting magic weapons. We like them. It's fun to have a flaming sword. By 20th level every character will have some type of awesome weapon (and almost certainly sometime before 20 as well). Because it's fun.
The only solution I can think of for this is to create a custom magic item for the Ranger's companion. It works, but it would be nice if there were something actually in the rules that we could use. |
| #28RCanineMay 08, 2015 20:58:42 |
|
| #42Xeviat-DMMay 16, 2015 21:43:39 | Mephi, thanks for that analysis. |