Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 OB1 Aug 12, 2015 16:51:30	Inspired by a post by shintashi in another thread   shintashi wrote:
#2 Xeviat-DM Aug 12, 2015 17:55:45	Yikes. Some of those are really big. I'm assuming you are meaning to make the major flaws worth more than +2 to a primary ability score?
#3 rampant Aug 12, 2015 18:05:44	Rival mentor, absen minded, and creature of comfort aren't crunchy enough to be worth a feat. Also given the overall power level of feats in 5e I'd suggest two minor flaws or one major to get a feat. I'd also advise that the ability score drop not have a bottom limit, or require a starting stat of 7+ so someone who managed to gt a 5 or 6 naturally can't turn it into a cheap feat.
#4 pukunui Aug 12, 2015 20:59:30	In my experience, players always pick a flaw with as minimal an impact as possible in order to maximise the benefits. Might as well just give them a free feat and be done with it.
#5 MechaPilot Aug 12, 2015 21:15:44	I don't think that flaws should let you buy feats.   I think that each individual flaw should have its own ups and downs.  For example, consider a greedy flaw.  A greedy character will not want to put out a single coin unless it's necessary, and will grip like heck when it is necessary.  A greedy character will always attempt to justify why she deserves a larger share of treasure than her compatriots.  A greedy character will demand recounts of found treasure to ensure that she gets ever coin she thinks she deserves.  On the plus side, a greedy character could be proficient at appraising objects.  A greedy character could get her proficiency or advantage when a check is required to notice/find valuables.
#6 shintashi Aug 15, 2015 2:35:18	Major Hollow Bones/Frail: When rolling hit dice, use the next dice step down: Wizard/Sorcerer: d4 (3), Warlock/Rogue/Monk/Druid/Cleric/Bard: d6 (4), Fighter/Paladin/Ranger: d8 (5), Barbarian: d10 (6), Gargantuan Monster: d12 (7). black Cloud/Bad Luck: Each time you finish a long rest, the DM rolls 3d20, and applies them throughout the day in place of your die rolls or a monster's attack rolls or saves against your effects, even if you have advantage. This is the Reverse of the Lucky feat. Insane: roll once on the Insanity table in the DMG Near sighted: You treat all short range missile attacks as if they were long range, and when firing long range, treat targets as if they had mirror image; if you hit a "mirror image", you hit an ally if one is nearby (AC applies).   Minor Variant: Slow Healer: Use the next dice step down when rolling hit dice for recovery. I.E. Roll d8s instead of d10s, d6s instead of d8s, etc. Part Time Mage: When determining your total Cantrips for Sorcerer/Wizard/Bard/Cleric/Warlock, you learned one less than others. This flaw is only available for those with cantrips. Uninspired: When you gain inspiration, you must make a Wisdom save DC 10 or your Apathy/Melancholy consumes it. Far Sighted: While treating long ranges as if it were short range, in melee combat, you are at disadvantage to melee attacks making critical hits almost impossible. Additionally, it takes twice as long to memorize or copy any spells or study any written material, and at the DM's option, you may have to take an additional long or short rest in order to prepare more than half your normal spells. Color Blind: When a spell calls for a color ingredient, you can't tell the difference between them, and must roll randomnly as if they had "mirror image". if you "hit" the wrong material component, your spell fails. Examples include various gem component spells. Additionally, you cannot easily tell the difference between coins and suffer disadvantage when haggling, and may be accused of theft or find yourself accidentally paying far too much for products.     this kind of system could be used to import the Channeler Class, using Exhaustion rules as a flaw for casting   . (edit: 8/15/15 some of the minor flaws have been updated to be harsher)
#7 pukunui Aug 12, 2015 23:30:12	MechaPilot wrote:
#8 shintashi Aug 12, 2015 23:43:27	pukunui wrote:
#9 pukunui Aug 12, 2015 23:49:58	shintashi wrote:
#10 rampant Aug 13, 2015 0:03:12	Actually most of the flaws in the OP would work since they apply to a much broader selection of character types than previously proposed flaws, although maybe restricting which feats you can take with flaws might be a good plan? That said there's nothing that says you have to give people feats for their flaws. There are ganes where you have to select a flaw, not to get extra power, but as a normal charactar generation step.   Insane is a bit random, I'd pick a couple of roughly equivalent levle results and make them roll on a csotm table or let the dm pick or let them pick, or something. Depending on how these work and the DM's level of interest it might not work out well.   Near and far sighted are the kinds of flaws that gave the system a bad name, very easy to min-max, ditch em. Same for part time mage and color blind.
#11 LuisCarlos17f Aug 13, 2015 1:47:45	You could get flaws from 3.5 "Unearthed Arcana" and some articles from Dragon Magazine, but not penalties for social skills because they are useless for munchkins players.
#12 OB1 Aug 13, 2015 8:23:59	pukunui wrote:
#13 mellored Aug 13, 2015 9:25:24	pukunui wrote:
#14 OB1 Aug 13, 2015 9:59:29	mellored wrote:
#15 mellored Aug 13, 2015 10:58:09	OB1 wrote:
#16 rampant Aug 13, 2015 11:29:55	The big thing is to make sure the flaws apply to a broad selection of character types and there's no obvious way to create a character that totally doesn't care about a given flaw. Thats Why I'm against the sighted flaws.
#17 Reinhart Aug 13, 2015 11:46:56	Something like "Rival Mentor" is never actually a flaw because it's just a fun story hook for the player and an excuse for the GM to send a recurring villain.  It doesn't actually make things worse, it just makes things interesting. Now that doesn't mean it's a bad thing at all, but comparing it to actual mechanical penalties is an inevitably an apples to oranges situation. Honestly, the optional flaws for permanent bonuses thing never really works out as intended. (Unless the intention to is give some players an even greater starting advantage.)
#18 Noon Aug 13, 2015 17:26:08	I think flaws should, by the DM's judgement, have had an effect before the benefit works.   I've seen too many games where people min max their flaws, so their flaw never ever effects them but of course all their benefits do.   Instead, a flaw should have to have activated for it's benefit to work. Once the benefit has been used, the flaw needs to have had an effect again before the benefit can work again.
#19 Rya.Reisender Aug 14, 2015 3:59:15	In my games flaws already have an advantage: The worse, the more often a character gains inspiration.
#20 shintashi Aug 15, 2015 2:18:48	essay version 3:   ok, everytime i think about how to respond to people about this subject, i realize it's a huge point of contention with a lot of baggage.   Here is what we have established.   1. major flaws approximate 1 feat in power value 2. minor flaws do NOT. More than 1, but how many is debatable.     some people want flaws with merits built in. My far sight flaw fits this description, because it moves a penalty from long range to the melee range. Overall, this is -1/+1. It will benefit an archer, and pretty much cripple a fencer. Maybe this is one of those quirks, or 'character traits" mentioned earlier, rather than a pure flaw. The problem with making all flaws this way is you end up needing way too many to match up the different options. For example, if you say +1 int, -1 wis, or +1 dex -1 str, what do you do if you want +1 int -1 str, or +1 wis -1 cha? You are screwed because that combination doesn't exist. But if you have a +1 int feat, and a -1 charisma flaw, then it works.   Most flaws have advantages, usually unintended. Here's a simple one for you all to comprehend: Blind people can't see. That means they can't see anything where seeing things would hurt them. Being undead is a flaw. But it comes with a bucket of advantages. Being incorporeal is a flaw, but it comes with advantages.   I have successfully produced pure flaws, like "your hit points are simply lower", or "you have anti luck and dice are rolled against you"   but people have their own playing styles. For some people, bad luck and low hp is a good thing. it isn't fair to tell the min maxer they can't have their cake and eat it too, when mister tragedy drama queen is sitting over there lapping up all the attention every time he rolls a 20 and it gets rerolled into a 3. Professor X got a hover chair and mega telepathy. Daredevil got ninja skills and super hearing. Fiction tends to not only compensate, it tends to overcompensate.   When i had crutches and later a cane from an aikido accident, the subway people in Manhattan were nicer than ever.   Don't get me wrong, a character could probably be built with some flaws in a way to only benefit, but the DM has to decide if a flaw, is really a flaw for that character.   Obviously, if you don't have cantrips, losing them isn't a flaw. If you don't use bows, a penalty to ranged weapons isn't a flaw.
#21 Hebitsuikaza Aug 15, 2015 4:58:16	The problem you are going to get... the problem that naturally arises when Advantage/Flaw systems, is the problem that always arises it and I have been just as guillty of it as anyone, is that when these systems come up-- naturally players choose the flaws that impact them the least among and the advantages that help them the most.   I mean, just starting from the top-- a -2 to an attribute? It is meaningless if you take that -2 to a trash attribute such as Strength or Intelligence if you aren't the 2 classes that use the first or the 1 class that uses the second. To everyone else, they are throw-aways.   Loss of Dark Vision isn't remotely a big deal. If the group has a human, they already have to do the things they need to do in order to adjust for someone in the group not having it.   Basically, whatever you list is-- ultimately you are going to have items that are just free things one can easily take that won't really negatively impact them.
#22 Dwarfslayer Aug 15, 2015 8:54:36	pukunui wrote:
#23 Rya.Reisender Aug 15, 2015 13:29:21	^ But this was solved in 5E by adding inspiration. Now it's quite good to have a flaw you can often roleplay out.
#24 shintashi Aug 15, 2015 15:19:00	i was in a session a little while ago, where the players and DM discovered there was training, and a DMG section on getting Feats using downtime.   TRAINING A character might be offered pecial training in lieu of a financial reward. This kind of training isn't widely available and thus is highly desirable. It presumes the existence of a skilled trainer-perhaps a retired adventurer or champion who is willing to serve as a mentor. The trainer might be a reclusive wizard or haughty sorcerer who owes the queen a favor, the knight-commander of the King's Guard, the leader of a powerful druid circle, a quirky monk who lives in a remote mountaintop pagoda, a barbarian chieftain, a warlock living among nomads as a fortune-teller, or an absentminded bard whose plays and poetry are known throughout the land. A character who agrees to training as a reward must spend downtime with the trainer (see chapter 6 for more information on downtime activities " You can spend time between adventures learning a new language or training with a set o f tools. Your DM might allow additional training options. First, you must find an instructor w illing to teach you. The DM determines how long it takes, and whether one or more ability checks are required. The training lasts for 250 days and costs 1 gp per day. After you spend the requisite amount of time and money, you learn the new language or gain proficiency with the new tool."   ). In exchange, the character is guaranteed to receive a special benefit. Possible training benefits include the following: The character gains inspiration daily at dawn for ld4 + 6 days. • The character gains proficiency in a skill. The character gains a feat.   Ok, so you know what happened? They voted, took a break, and then paid a lump of gp to trainers, and everyone added a feat to their character sheet. Blink. Done. Here's the thing... a flaw, even one of my 'this could probably be an advantage some of the time' flaws, would still be more of a flaw than what my players and DM had for their characters and NPCs.   "might as well give them a free feat and be done with it", is pretty close to what happened.