| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
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| #1IorwerthAug 19, 2014 4:58:08 | I am not sure I like the Orc as it is presented in 5th edition. My problem is the following bonus action it gains:
Aggressive. As a bonus action, the orc can move up to its speed
This just makes orcs super fast when chasing down hostiles. Why are they so fast? I would have thought some toughness type thing would be more in keeping with the traditional view of orcs, or orc aggression would give them some sort of increased damage in certain situations, but not this 'greyhound chasing rabbits type ability' they have been given.
Am I alone in this view? It just seems odd to make them super fast when moving towards/chasing enemies they can see. Has anyone come up with an alternate type power for orcs that won't change their challenge level?
EDIT: maybe this should be in the DM thread? |
| #2Mephi1234Aug 19, 2014 5:58:45 | Well, thoughness can be represented by a fairly high Con score. The fast movement makes sense to me, too. Orcs are the barbarian hoards. They are all about the charging and the slaughtering of opposing armies in a great wave. I think the speed is pretty awesome. |
| #3kev777Aug 19, 2014 6:20:42 | It's an example of gamist design. There are several realism/believability issues like that with 5th edition.
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| #4IorwerthAug 19, 2014 6:21:27 |
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| #5IorwerthAug 19, 2014 6:35:43 |
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| #6iserithAug 19, 2014 7:55:23 | I think if one is to see aggressiveness in that trait, it's that the move is always toward a hostile opponent. Charging into battle rather than away from it, rather than just "extra speed." (Not to be confused with a mechanical charge action, which doesn't exist in 5e.) I would use this ability to get past the front ranks of PCs and at the squishier types in the back, overrunning the PCs' lines. The playtest orcs had Relentless which gave them a shot at sticking around for a bit after being dropped to 0 hit points. This is more or less what zombies have now (Zombie Fortitude) so perhaps they thought it was seen as redundancy and wanted the orcs to have their own thing. |
| #7Mephi1234Aug 19, 2014 8:11:20 |
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| #8MechatarrasqueAug 19, 2014 8:02:14 | It is evolution. As orcs got killed off by the thousands in edition after edition, only the fast ones lived long enough to breed, so eventually fast orcs were all that were left. Just kidding!
I think the goal was for the orc to be able to engage the squishy caster faster. Like bounded accuracy, it is there to make groups of orcs threats longer. If your front line is occupied by half the orcs, and the other half can get to the casters in half the time, that will change the caster's options--probably not a good time to spend a minute conjuring an elemental.....
A number of other abilities come to mind (such as expanding the orcs' crit range or giving them a bonus to will saves while in melee because they are sooo focused on fighting mind effects can't reach in easily), but I don't see any of them really expanding the threat life of groups of orcs. |
| #9zoroaster99Aug 19, 2014 8:03:37 | I agree it is an ability that seemed unsatisfying for the main orc mechanic. I'd prefer something like what they gave half-orcs player characters, Savage Attack, do an extra weapon die of damage on a crit. Or resilient, get final attack as reaction when struck down (or maybe just if they make a Con save). |
| #10HebitsuikazaAug 19, 2014 8:46:28 | A few things I might consider replacing it with...
1) If they get knocked to 0, they have a chance to keep going. 2) They knock a few points off of damage dealt to them each round -- so you aren't even going to beat them with doing 1-2 point damage unless you can do several of them a turn. 3) After they take a hit, the damage deal increases.
Those all seem more Orcy than fast speed. I guess you could mix them across the various Orcs in your encounter though. So Orc Guardians have a different ability from Orc Mauraders from Orc Archers and so forth. |
| #11FFSAAAug 19, 2014 8:58:46 |
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| #12melloredAug 19, 2014 9:01:31 | I don't see an issue with orcs being able to chase people down. |
| #13RottleAug 19, 2014 9:27:02 |
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| #14pauln6Aug 19, 2014 10:47:32 | My solution has been simple - to rule that a creatures movement is capped unless the text expressly states that a triple move is possible. The rogue's bonus action is to emulate the thief running from the guardsmen at full pelt, using his bonus action to knock over melon carts to make the ground behind him difficult terrain, so he can get just far enough ahead of his pursuers to use his bonus action to hide. It is carelessly worded and missing the thematic target if it just turns the rogue, including those stumpy little halflings, into Usain Bolt.
Same holds for the orc. It's designed to let the orc charge and attack not run at massively fast speeds IMO.
If you simply rule that speed per round is capped at double move, the abilities work more thematically. |
| #15IorwerthAug 19, 2014 11:00:34 |
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| #16HebitsuikazaAug 19, 2014 11:24:15 |
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| #17IorwerthAug 19, 2014 11:39:00 | The movement speed in real life has never had any bearing in D&D. Viewing movement in comarision to this standard does little for playability. Instead, all that is relevant, is the relative speed between characters and monsters. The fact that a rogue can move a 1/3 faster than all other characters (or most characters, as haven't done an indepth study of other powers at higher levels) is not great.
I would be looking to house rule this if i can think of a way of doing it that doesn't mean that Cunning Action is no longer useful. My guess is that allowing a rogue to use cunning action to dash, so he can also use an action at the same time, is probably going to keep it useful, even if you rule that no one can dash twice in a round, regardless of whether it is a move or a bonus action. Still, interested to see what others think.
As to orcs, I quite like the idea of their criticals being more effective, but worried baout whether this would alter their challenege rating. |
| #18AtheosisAug 19, 2014 11:44:46 | So change it.
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| #19ChaosmancerAug 19, 2014 12:02:43 | I don't see an issue with it, the more "iconic" abilities of extra attacks or damage might make them too dangerous for lower level characters to even think about fighting. They do an average of 9 damage already (dropping 1st levels without d10 HD easily) give them an extra weapon damage would bump that average to 15, which can kill any 1st level character outright and make orcs (classic low-level enemies) suicidal to face until level 2 or 3.
Also, being hard to outrun is a classic orcs thing if you go back to LoTR, only Aargorn, magic human blood, Legolas, magic elf , and Gimli, untiring dwarf, could even keep pace with the orcs, let alone outrun them. |
| #20AtheosisAug 19, 2014 12:14:09 | Personally I would just remove it. Not replace it with something else. |
| (Reply to #16)pauln6 |
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| #22Tony_VargasAug 19, 2014 13:09:47 | The playtest orcs were able to take a dying swing on their next initiative after being killed. You could revert to that.
I think the idea of capping moves at two/round wouldn't be unreasonable. If you do, Aggressive just lets orcs 'charge' their full movement and still attack, which sounds pretty agressive. Another way to cap it would be to allow it only in combat, as a sort of 'sprinting' with a limit to the number of rounds they can do it - so they can't just march everywhere at 150% normal speed, as long as they know they're heading towards the enemy... ... then again, that could be pretty scary... |
| #23ElfcrusherAug 19, 2014 13:12:12 |
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| #24UngeheuerLichAug 20, 2014 3:39:59 | As someone who also did the math: moving 90ft per 6 sec is nothing great. And outside combat I would not use combat actions to measure distancnes one can run. But Orcs with con 16 are not bad at running distances either.
On the other hand, half-orcs doing one extra damage die on a crit is something that makes them more savage than the average orc. I am not sure if I like that so much. But in the end, its a wash. I like the new orc ability a lot better than the old one which made killing orcs annoyingly dangerous.
Just an Idea: just let every orc have the charger feat instead of the bonus action move. Attack once as a bonus action at the end of a dash with +5 damage. IIRC. More dangerous and not breaking any movement rules.
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| #25DeadstopAug 20, 2014 6:56:06 |
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| #26KalaniAug 20, 2014 10:38:38 | As the intent of this ability seems to be a "charge" toward a hostile opponent, I would simply replace this ability with the following:
Granting orcs the charger feat is much more thematic, and makes them scary in combat (although it does also make them somewhat more powerful than the MM variant, so perhaps adjusting their CR or XP budget may be in order).
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| (Reply to #26)Veleria |
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| #28KalaniAug 20, 2014 13:42:45 | I might even go as far as to allow them to make the bonus action on a Dash or Disengage (after moving at least 10 feet). Would make them tricky and difficult chargers to avoid. |
| (Reply to #27)UngeheuerLich |
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| (Reply to #13)Sailing_Pirate_Ryan |
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| #31tallric_kruushAug 20, 2014 19:15:16 | In my opinion, "hostile creature" implies an opponent engaged in combat with the orc. (Not necessarily directly, obviously, but within the same combat encounter.) In the heat of battle, the orc can blitz its enemies with overwhelming speed and ferocity.
Fleeing villagers? I'd not rule them "hostile creatures" if they aren't standing and fighting. This prevents this feature from becoming an issue, in terms of ridiculous pursuit speed. The speed is an "in combat" advantage. Once a foe is fleeing the field of battle, it is no longer "hostile", at least in regard to this particular ability ;). |
| (Reply to #29)Veleria |
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| #33NoonAug 21, 2014 1:55:34 |
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| (Reply to #32)UngeheuerLich |
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| #35IorwerthAug 21, 2014 3:56:11 |
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| (Reply to #31)Lokiron |
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| #37IorwerthAug 21, 2014 4:21:13 | What would seem more in keeping with the whole aggressivness of orcs charging in would be to simply give them advantage on their attack roll if they move more than 10 feet in and attack. Many creatures get advantage from pack tactics, so why not give orcs advantage when they charge in? |
| #38AlynnAug 21, 2014 6:30:03 | Curious... You could look at "toward a hostile enemy" and determine that someone running away is no longer hostile, and therefore the orc doesn't get the speed boost to chase them down. |
| #39KazadvornAug 21, 2014 7:12:51 | As the DM, if I decide to use this... I'll probably wind up limiting it to th first round of a combat. To represent the aggressive nature of the Orcs allowing them to charge in recklessly to quickly engage a foe. I don't have all the material available, but from looking at the monster stats that I have.. Would I be right in thinking that all the 'special ablities' only bestow 'buffs' without any downside? If I was going to allow the Orc an 'Aggresive' ability... I might be tempted to give it a downside too... The Orc can double move, but it grants advantage to any melee attack (opportunity or otherwise) until the start of it's next turn. Sure, you can double move past the fighter to get at the mage, but the Fighter is going to get an easy swing as you move past. |
| #40GriffordAug 21, 2014 8:27:49 |
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| #41Grand_Theft_OttoAug 21, 2014 9:50:31 |
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| #42KalaniAug 21, 2014 10:14:55 | During last season's encounters we encountered orcs which had the reckless attack ability, much like the barbarians class feature in the final product. Despite the fact that we had advantage against them, 8 orcs with advantage and greataxes was lethal, dropping two of our characters to zero, one of which dropped to zero for a second time during the same battle - the cleric of all people.
These orcs may have had a barbarian template added to them, because they still had the resilent feature from the playtest - allowing them to make a final attack after dropping to zero.
I can safely say that removing advantage on the orcs attacks is a good thing. They were too lethal with permanent advantage (at low levels), resulting in our party desperately trying to impose disadvantage in order to even the score. |
| #43DrDragonlanceAug 21, 2014 10:33:35 | Play Dragonlance. No Orcs. |
| #44IorwerthAug 21, 2014 10:48:16 |
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| #45KalaniAug 21, 2014 12:48:33 |
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