Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Orzel Oct 03, 2014 3:52:50	So, I have the basic idea behind my language module for 5th edition. The idea was started about a year ago and  the aided by the late wrecan in order to expanded the interaction element of D&D in a very D&D way. In D&D the character with the best personality and bonuses to social interaction who speaks the langages of the one spoken to is chosen to lead or even enter conversation.   Characters have different levels of fluency in languages when using this variant. They do not automatically have the ability to speak, read, and write every language they know. The various levels of language fluency are:   Nonspeaker: The character cannot speak, read, or  wrike in this language at all. Communication is limited to complete repetetion of phrases taught by others (an Intelligence check). Childlike: The character cannot speak fluently and has a very limited vocabulary. The character can only read or write in this language if they can read another language that shares a script with this language. Only the most basic of communication can be used. Illiterate: The character speaks fluently at the level of  commoner of the language holder. The character can only read or write in this language if they can read another language that shares a script with this language..The character has enough level of fluency to trade using this language. Proficient: The character speaks fluently at the level of commoner of the language holder. The character can also read and write in this language. The character has enough level of fluency to trade and can hold advanced conversations using this language Professionial: Same as Proficient but speaks at the level of a noble or artisan. The character can easily speak at court, describe extreme detials, and handle intense negotiations and has advantage on ability checks when speaking this way.. Expert: Same as Professional. The character can also speak and read in any other language that shares a script at Profiecent, has advantage to ability checks to forge written documents, and read lips in this language. Master: Same as Expert. The character can also speak and read in any other language that shares a script as a Prossionial, and read and write ciphers in this language.   PLAYER CHARACTERS A player character has Proficient fluency with all languages gained from race, class, background or feats. A character choose to sacifice knowing one Proficient language in order to increase fluency in another language (Proficent becomes Prossionial, Professional becomes Expert) or being Illiterate in two languages.   INTELLIGENCE A character with high Intelligence score can learn an additional langauge at Childlike fluency or increase the fluency of a language already known up one step . The character can learn a language or increase a language  fluency for each point of Intelligence modifier he or she has.   CHARISMA AND ACCENT PENALTIES A character with a Charisma of 9 or lower has an accent penalty with all language of Proficiency penalty or lower. The character has disadvantage on Wisdon and Charisma checks when communicating advance concepts using this language unless they make a DC 15 Intelligence check first.   What do you think?
#2 bawylie Oct 03, 2014 9:17:02	Saved for later use. (Probably NPC researchers).
#3 iserith Oct 03, 2014 9:27:09	Orzel wrote:
#4 Orzel Oct 03, 2014 9:54:33	Well in my games, I do a lot of interactions. Not every monster is to be killed and I hide a LOT of treasure and traps in conversations. A dryad only tells you where the evil nymph is if you speak in a language she does. Human nobles don't send aid to people who talk like country peons. A red dragon only respects an adventurer who can speak proper Draconic. The instructions for a Gnomish device is written in Gnomish but knowing Dwarven and being smart can help you figure it out. A forged document of a guild leader can only be written by someone has more than basic vocabulary in Elvish.
#5 Brock_Landers Oct 03, 2014 9:56:57	I like they they have cut down on the amount of languages monsters know in 5th Ed, like Giants do not speak Common (very important).
#6 souldoubt Oct 03, 2014 10:17:03	I like it.   As Iserith said, probably a little too granular for me just yet, but giving players an incentive to boost Int is good in my book.   One important point: I think it's going to cause some confusion that having "Illiterate" fluency in a language doesn't necessarily make you illiterate in that language...
#7 Orzel Oct 03, 2014 11:40:10	Well you could easily reduce it to Nonspeaker-Illiterate-Proficient-Expert. 4 steps.
#8 Timborama Oct 03, 2014 12:05:41	It's a very good baseline for folks to use, because I like how they re-introduced dialects (Auran vs. Ignan, Common geographical dialects, etc. etc.), and sub languages. So you don't know Auran, but you DO know Terran, so you can parse together a few things. You don't know Giant but you DO know Dwarven, so some cognates exist to help you out   Very nice, thanks!
#9 bawylie Oct 03, 2014 12:54:59	I'd tinker with tier names.    "What'd he say?"   "I can get by."   "Dem's my peeps."   "Yes, I'm fluent, and I know what you just said."
#10 souldoubt Oct 03, 2014 14:37:45	Orzel wrote:
(Reply to #10) Orzel	souldoubt wrote:
#12 souldoubt Oct 03, 2014 14:55:35	Orzel wrote:
#13 Orzel Oct 03, 2014 15:42:45	souldoubt wrote:
#14 DarkSphinx Oct 03, 2014 23:14:53	You know this script: Tub woh ysae si ti ot erugif tuo tahw ti syas?   Written language is a cipher: totally left-brained and really, completely different than spoken language.  Illiterate people cannot read.  The symbols are a complete mystery to one who is illiterate.  However, an illiterate person (with an artistic talent) could copy a manuscript without knowing what it means.  Calligraphy is its own artform and does not require any understanding of what is written.  Similar to reading letters/words/sentences is the skill of lip-reading, where the shapes the mouth makes are the visual clue to deciphering what is being said.  Conclusion:  READING is a vision-based skill which depends on sight (or touch, in the case of Braille) and the knowledge (INT) of the reader to make sense of abstract symbols.   Speech, on the other hand, is controlled by the ear: understanding comes through learning what sounds are associated with certain objects and actions, nuanced by tone of voice.  Vocalization is learned by repetitive mimicry: even a parrot can "talk" and does so based on the reaction it gets (usually a reward in the form of food).  Intelligence required for speech, even eloquent speech, is minimal.  Communication of abstract ideas, however, does depend on INT.   To break things down a bit: Speaking a language is a survival skill, largely based on environment (i.e., Background or Racial). Reading a language is not necessary for most non-modern occupations (ancillary skill for merchants, generally required for scholarly pursuits). Writing a language is a rare skill, required only by the most specialized occupations (scribes).   Back in the old days of D&D (1974-2000), it was my experience that knowing a language, did not include reading/writing necessarily.  When I started playing 4E, I was somewhat perturbed that reading and writing of the languages was also assumed with speaking them.  In general, I assumed no reading/writing skills unless the character also had one of the INT-based knowledges.  Really proficient use of spoken language is governed by CHA, the capability to manipulate through persuasion/diplomacy/intimidation.  Conveying abstract thought and logic is governed by INT.  Knowing when to speak and when to be silent is governed by WIS.   The most intelligent person in the world may not be able to persuade as well as the charlatan.  Therefore, I tend to use the following guidelines: 1)  Communicating survival needs uses WIS.  (Hunger, thirst, needing shelter, conveying the existence of potential threats, etc.) 2)  Persuading an audience (of just about anything) uses CHA (and speaking the language of the audience). 3)  Communicating abstract or complex ideas uses INT (and speaking the language of the audience). 4)  Reading a language uses INT (and requires an INT-based knowledge and understanding the script and the language of the text). 5)  Copying a written text accurately uses DEX. 6)  Composing written information uses INT (and requires an INT-based knowledge and understanding the script and the language of the text to be written). 7)  Composing a written work of poetry, song, or other entertainment uses CHA (and requires an INT-based knowledge and understanding the script and the language of the text to be written). 8)  Deciphering or creating a cipher (or inventing a new language) uses INT (and requires an INT-based knowledge and understanding the script and the language of the text to be written).   As a note:  it is also entirely possible to know and understand a written language without knowing how to speak it!   With regards to the OP: For speaking/understanding a spoken language, I would use the categories of Native (advantage, if warranted), Fluent, Novice (disadvantage). For reading a language just use a straight INT check, if necessary (and attainment of the skill to read the particular script/language is handled however you want based on your particular campaign). For writing a language, Master Scribe (advantage), Scribe, and Novice Scribe (disadvantage)   Note that the Comprehend Languages spell does not provide any fluency to speak nor ability to write, but does provide understanding of spoken or written language while the spell lasts; though, if a text were written by a Novice, the reader might be at disadvantage to understand any complex message, or, if addressed by a Novice speaking a language, said speaker may still have disadvantage in persuading the bespelled listener.   I don't think you gain anything by adding any complexity beyond the three categories I have presented (Native/Master Scribe, Fluent/Scribe, Novice).  This system leaves Reading Languages the province of the Intelligent (which we take for granted in modern society).   -DS