So, this is the easiest topic setup I've ever done ever:
Berserker Level 3:
One extra attack per rage. Afterwards, you turn into Grandpa Simpson until a long rest. If you do it again, you turn into Grandpa Simpson with a broken leg until TWO long rests. If you do it again, you might as well just pray for death.
Totem Warrior Level 3:
I CAN SPEAK TO THE FISHES AND SEE WHAT THEY SEE EVERY 10 MINUTES.
Option 1:
Resistance to everything except for psychic for every rage. Why is this even a thing?
Option 2:
Dash as a bonus action every turn for every rage, and have advantage on all AoO. Field control is maximum, captain.
Option 3:
Everything next to you can hit everything next to you that isn't friendly to you.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berserker Level 6:
The only really awesome part of Berserker primal path that is so great I can't believe they didn't put it into Totem Warrior or make it a class feature.
Totem Warrior Level 6:
Option 1:
I can carry everything. I can break everything. I can push anything. I am an accomplished furniture mover.
Option 2:
See for a mile with perfect clarity and no disadvantage in dim light. I can see the BBEG walk out of his house and poop in his own lawn.
Option 3:
I can be a Ranger, because nobody else will be one.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berserker Level 10:
Use a full action to intimidate someone for fear. Maybe. Uses Charisma as extra mod. Can fear kite someone for an entire fight. Ignores fear immunity? Probably not. So, I can chase someone while staring at them really angry, or I could actually kill them.
Totem Warrior Level 10:
You can speak to god (your DM), but your god is a furry. Maybe your DM is, too. Getting to ask three questions can mean all the difference, if you're smart enough to ask the right ones.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berserker Level 14:
Use a reaction to hit someone who hits you (not just attacks you). Whoa. This is such a great sub-class capstone. Oh, wait, no it isn't. Also, if the target is beyond 5 feet, you can't invoke this RAW, even if you have a polearm.
Totem Warrior Level 14:
Option 1:
Nothing within 5 feet of you can attack another target without provoking disadvantage. Take Level 3 bear or wolf, get Sentinel, and tell the BBEG to go screw himself. You are the meatshield. Not the one the wizard deserves, but the one he needs.
Option 2:
You can fly your full move speed. If you don't think this is cool, you have no soul. Fly up, grapple a flying creature, and pretend you're powerbombing it. Take half damage from the fall. Flying creature takes all of it.
Option 3:
Knock prone anything Large or smaller on a successful hit using a bonus action. The economy of this is simply great if you're not going to use that bonus action ANYWAY.
So, all things being equal, Berserker is the trappiest subclass to ever trap, except for Beastmaster. Using the first path power leaves you pining for the next long rest, with disadvantage on every skill check. Using it again makes you hate Jesus, as you hobble along. Using it a third time makes you pray for death. Which is odd, considering that you get so many rages per day, and the Totem Warrior path has rage options BETTER than one extra attack per round, but can use them every rage and suffers no side effects. The worst insult is that all of this is culmulative: mathematically, you can only use one frenzy a day, unless you want to keep accruing levels of exhaustion every day, as you only eliminate ONE per long rest. Or, greater restoration. ONE PER GREATER RESTORATION.
Let's not even bother looking at the rest of them, as only Mindless is good. Intimidation would be good as a bonus action while frenzied, but not by itself. Retaliation is just so very weak for a sub-class capstone, since it requires actually getting hit.
I want to play Berserker path, but I also don't like playing classes that are made to make you hate babies.
I'm not as... colorful on my dislike, but I find myself agreeing that totem is fairly superior. That being said I do have a player going berserker, and thinking it will make him a damage god... He also went looking to buy potions that will remove exhaustion... at level 4... the fact they don't actually exist was compounded by Greater Restoration being the only spell that I know of that reduces exhaustion and that level of spell makes the item rare at best, which makes it very expensive.
Still, if you absolutely need to kill something now, getting three rage attacks a round with advantage is a good way to do it
Advantage if you use Reckless Attack every round, which is only okay if the incoming damage is straight up BluSlaPie. Something has an elemental element but still uses DC? I hope you like the pain. And one extra attack per rage per day (that you can lose quite easily by being out of range/not taking damage or just straight up being mezzed/incapped) is so grossly inferior to everything that Level 3 Totem offers that it makes me want to cry.
I don't see the loss of game balance by letting you frenzy with every rage, and making the bonus attack take disadvantage or something.
I agree.
Overall very pleased with 5E, but there are a handful of things that I'd warn players about taking. Beserker being one of them.
(Along with Rangers without Hunter's Mark, Beastmaster hunters and "Are you sure you wouldn't rather be a moon druid?")
It seems to me the Exhaustion mechanic is designed to allow DMs to make starvation and exposure style survival issues to be seriously threatening to players without it being easy to deal with like Hitpoint damage.
I can see why exhaustion was chosen as the slap mechanic but seeminly without an understanding of quite how harsh even a single level of exhaustion is and how difficult it is to remove.
Going Bear totem and ignoring the hippy bits kinda feels more beserker than the beserker...
Chaosmancer wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Talreign wrote:
I think the level of exhaustion is fair. The damage you put out with beserker is insane. Exhaustion is the trade off, and frankly it's not necessarily a big trade off for the first two levels. PLus, once your friendly cleric reaches level 9, he can remove your exhaustion with a spell. Or use the ability towards the end of your working day, no real downside.
Not a trap imo.
While I agree that the Berserker path is inferior to the Totem Warrior path, I wouldn't go so far as to call it a trap. A character that chooses that path isn't automatically going to be defective. They just may not be as effective as they might be if they'd chosen Totem Warrior.
Chaosmancer wrote:
I'm not sure I'd agree the first two levels are inconsequential.
1st level is disadvantage to every ability check you make. Stealth, perception, survival, I guess it is slightly dependant on the abundance of skill checks during the session, but it still smarts since disadvantage makes it much more likely to fail.
2nd level is disadvantage to every check and you move at half speed, which if you fight again (seems unlikely after two frenzies but is possible) makes it much harder to actually reach your opponent, and if you can't reach them you can't hit them, which makes you as a damage dealer a little impotent.
Players: "Hey DM, we want to go on a quest to find some kind of way to mitigate or remove the effects of exhaustion. Maybe some lost knowledge in a forsaken ruin or a magical fey-lichen that only grows on a remote jungle island?"
Good DM: Yes! That sounds cool and I like your proactivity! 
Bad DM: No. You can only remove exhaustion with a greater restoration spell. 
Chaosmancer wrote:
Chaosmancer wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
zagora_01 wrote:
1) Frenzy gives you 1 more attack *per round* for the length of the Rage. Not 1 more attack per rage.
2) Why is a level of exhaustion a big deal for a Barbarian? What abiity checks were so important for him? Hint: Beserkers are not ideal scouts. Just like an Abjurer is not ideal for raising an undead army. Beserkers are good at... well, going beserk and doing a lot of damage with less regard for themselves.
Frenzy lets them increase their damage by *50%*, (100% for levels 3&4) Thats pretty darn good. It also makes it much more likely that Reckless Attack is a good trade off.
3) Even two levels of exhaustion is likely to be of little impact. Sure, if your adventure is outdoors with you chasing down escaping bad guys....then don't use Frenzy. But in most situations 20' of movement will be plenty. And remember, this means you have already used Frenzy twice that day.
4) I think you are greatly overratting some of the totem effects
Bear3: Yeah, thats really cool
Eagle3: So you get to run around a lot.... it means you can get separated from the rest of the party and take on the BBEG by yourself. Could be fun....
Wolf3: Kinda neat, any melee allies get advantage against enemies right next to you. Of course, if they are fighting their own guys, no such help.
Bear6: Ooohh.. you get to carry stuff. The power of the PC pack mule. (Where is Kalani and the Norbert jpg?)
Eagle6: You can see far away. That could be cool, and the "Duskvision" could be helpful. But again, if you want to be a scout, then go Totem and not Beserker
Wolf6: You can track really fast... of course no one can keep up with you. But could be helpful when playing solo adventures.
etc.
There are some neat things you can do with Totem, but none come close to the damage output boost from Beserker.
Coredump00 wrote:
zagora_01 wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Illithidbix wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
The two barbarians really play differently. The Berzerker, ironically, plays more towards being a social character. They're the ones who are prone to sitting around campfires and taverns, boasting of their deeds and exploits at the top of their lungs. You fight for sake of glory and the thrill of battle. Totem barbarians, on the other hand, are more wise in the way of the world, literally - they focus on Wisdom, hunting, tracking, the whole Outlander tribe wilderness survivor vibe.
And its not like the Berzerker is bugged like the Beastmaster or Chain Warlock is. Frenzy, admittedly, is kinda lame against large hoards, but does work against single target large enemies as a kind of daily nova, plus its only one aspect of the subclass, the others work fine. They're good fighters, they're decent at being intimidating. When raging, they both can use Reckless Attack + Great Weapon Mastery to strong effect against hoards, and Berzerker can make more attacks when fighting against big bads.
In a way, it does come down to campaign. If you don't face a lot of strong "boss monsters" and more weak hoardlings, then yeah, Berzerker is worse than Totem. On the other hand, if the situation is reversed...
Beserker seems fine to me.
3: 1/day you can cast haste on yourself.
6: (near) Immunity to charm/fear.
10: Give someone disvantage for a turn.
14: A third attack (under most circumstances).
I am actually getting ready to play a Berserker soon. I am not playing a totem. I believe the Totem's to be mechanically superior. I just hate the fluff and the concept immensely, and I do believe some of the mechanics are overly powerful (Bear Totem, at least get rid of the resistances to necrotic and radiant damage). A real turn off to my taste. I would rather play a mechanically weaker Berserker than a Totem. But I still see the Berserker as a mechanically good class for any published adventure that I have seen so far.
As long as you save your frenzy for those important "Nova" situations, then I don't see exhaustion as that big of a problem ... but the fact that exhaustion lasts all day does seem a bit harsh. After all, that does effectively limit how often you can use frenzy to about once per day (yes, you can use it more than that, but eventually the number of days you need to rest will catch up with you).
It makes me wonder if a previous (playtest) version of exhaustion cleared-up on a short rest, maybe the berserker path was written at that time, and afterward maybe it was never updated to reflect the changes to the exhaustion rules? That might not be the case, but I do wonder. (I did partcipate in the playtest, but those files were on a hard-drive that later caught a virus, so I can't check it). Either way, I suspect we'll see an optional rule in the future that allows exhaustion to clear up after a short rest.
iserith wrote:
You people are underestimating the effect of exhaustion. You only remove one level of exhaustion per long rest. You can only take a long rest once per day. This means that you will only be able to frenzy once per adventuring day without accruing exhaustion that carries over INTO THE NEXT DAY. This is a culmulative debuff. Every day you frenzy, you gain exhaustion. Every TIME you frenzy, you gain an additional DAY of exhaustion. And disadvantage on ALL skill checks is huge, if you're a Barbarian that does more than ME BIG SMASH in character. Losing speed means nullifying one of your basic class features by using a sub-class feature. The third level of exhaustion is sunlight sensitivity ALWAYS and EVERYWHERE.
And nobody has answered the simple question:
If a Totem Warrior can get such massive buffs EVERY time he rages, and the Level 3 Totem buffs are MASSIVE, then why does a Berserker Barbarian get saddled with ever increasing levels of exhaustion, that are impossible to remove without excusing yourself from the adventure for the next two days to convalesce?
And Berserker is mechanically bad in every way. Frenzy is an extra attack per rage (per round is the same thing), which means 10 extra attacks per fight at most, since that's the limit of a single rage. This is mitigated by the fact that you can easily lose rage at any point in the fight. Normally, you could, as a Totem warrior, become re-enraged and gain all benefits back. As a Berserker, you can only do this if you take an ADDITIONAL level of exhaustion.
Plenty of adventures will see you needing to rage more than once per adventuring day. Having to "save" the level 3 sub-class feature for the "boss battle" that you should not even know is coming, in order to prevent yourself from gimping yourself, is the stupidest economy I've ever heard. All a Cleric has to do, with Clerics being the biggest bang per spell buck with least short-term economy recovery, is one long rest to recover everything. A Berserker has to do one long rest plus an additional long rest per frenzy. I think the only thing that comes to mind with that level of character recovery would be Wish, unless we're using grievous wounds mechanics.
If you really want to play a Berserker, ask the Wizard or the Bard to Haste you while going Totem sub-class. Now, you're a Berserker Barbarian that has resistance to everything but psychic, and you no longer become a crippled old man after you finish your frenzy.
Beserker seems fine to me.
3: 1/day you can cast haste on yourself.
6: (near) Immunity to charm/fear.
10: Give someone disvantage for a turn.
14: A third attack (under most circumstances).
If it were actually Haste once a day, that'd be fine. In fact, I may mention to my DM that instead of Frenzy, just make the power basically "Self-Haste, no concentration, once per long rest.", and then gain an additional Haste at a level appropriate to match Fighter additional attacks. But Haste gives you way more than just one additional attack per round, and it has less of a drawback, as noted.
Immunity to charm/fear is nice. That's why I said it's the only power I'm jealous of, and surprised it wasn't a main class/Totem power.
Disadvantage to someone, while being unable to use an action yourself to hurt them. I can shove with one attack, then hit them with the next. Disadvantage for them, advantage for me!
A third attack that uses your reaction. If you get hit. Which you shouldn't want to get hit in the first place. Wow. Coolest sub-class capstone EVAR. If it gave advantage to the return hit, then that'd be peachy, but otherwise, it's just an AoO, one I could easily get with Sentinel or PAM. Even if we're not using feats, it's not super awesome, and the Totem 14s are all better.
Talreign wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Talreign wrote:
You are greatly exaggerating the benefits Bear gives you, m'thinks. What about all the times enemy damage is already bludgeoning, slashing or piercing?
Talreign wrote:
Yeah. Just like the time the barbarian and his friends were fighting a bunch of stirges flying around them. Or those winged kobalds dropping rocks. Or the time those 4 goblins were spread out in positions on either side of the road, pelting the PCs with arrows from cover of heavy brush.
You are strawmanning. Or at the least, moving goalposts. I never attempted to compare totem to berzerker.
All I did was refute your white-room claim that the level 3 totem benefits were "MASSIVE" "EVERY" time.
I have demonstrated why you are wrong in that assessment. So now what? Change topics with more yelling?
Now a level of exhaustion is "HORRIBLE, DEBILITATING"? Ugh. Your bombasity is quickly becoming tiresome.
Mephi1234 wrote:
You do a lot of damage (maybe) in one encounter (maybe, if rage doesn't drop) once per day (or twice a day, if you like escalating crippling effects in later days, biatch). Then, you have disadvantage on all skill checks for everything, including intimidation and strength checks, the bread and butter of the proper Barbarian.
Or, you can have damage resistance to every damage type in the game except for psychic, always.
Or, you can use dash as a bonus action and give disadvantage on AoO, always. (For when you desperately need to fling yourself at whatever is attacking the Wizard in melee, or if you just want to play a hit and run Barbarian who uses Reckless Attack every turn and can't be attacked by anything that's not ranged.)
Or, you can give advantage to melee allies every time they attack anything that you're attacking, always.
And you can do these every time you rage.
If you want an extra attack that badly, beg for Haste and get +2AC, advantage on Dex saves that you can't even see, and twice your movement, with no long term effects.
And this is only the third level power. At 14:
You do one extra attack per turn if someone hits you and is within 5 feet of you. This isn't that bad, BUT...
Or, you can give disadvantage to everything within 5 feet of you to everything else that isn't you.
Or, you can fly. You can fscking fly. I am a flying, angry, singing Barbarian. Proceed with the pants soiling.
Or, you can knock down anything Large or smaller with your first attack, automatically.
Something like 3 Wolf / 14 Bear makes you Captain Facehugger. Anything you get in range of gets a face full of you, and can't do anything else except for take hits from everyone else. 3 Bear / 14 Wolf makes you able to down any human-sized fighter and keep them down, without wasting an attack action, and stay there and keep doing it until it's dead.
Berserker swings a melee weapon once as a bonus action per turn, once a day, for 10 turns. And then disadvantage. Wheeeeee.
edwin_su wrote:
zagora_01 wrote:
Talreign wrote:
Knocking prone is usually for advantage, but barbarians already have advantage.
The frenzy does come at a cost, but that is part of what makes it scary/insteresting. You have to decide to go all out or to try and keep control of your rage. Like a high level spell slot, do you burn it now? Or do you wait to see if you need that extra umph later.
It is not a trap, but it does force the player/character to make a somewhat difficult choice. And those are sometimes part of the fun, risk vs reward.
Talreign wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
I would not say a level or two of exhaustion renders the character completely useless. One could argue that a wizard without his spells is useless then.
I mean unless you are Mr. solo-zerker your party members should understand that you gave 110% in the last couple fights, and you are on the bushed side. It makes the rest of the adventuring day more challenging, but not impossible.
No. It is not always. You may want to look up the definition of "always".
Since you seem to like white rooms so much, here's a l'il something for your "ALWAYS MASSIVE" level 3 bear totem resistance.
DM: A young red dragon lands up ahead in a clearing. The only thing burning hotter than the flames licking from its mouth is the malice in its eyes.
Barbarian: Ha! I move up closer and rage, before it can breath on me, so I'll have resistance against it's breath weapon. I then throw my handaxe at it before closing in next round.
DM: Cool. It's turn. It breaths fire on you. [Barbarian indeed takes only half damage. yay bear totem!] Then the dragon takes flight into the air.
Barbarian: [unable to attack it back now, his rage goes away] Crud! 
DM: Dragon then swoops down and shreds the barbarian.
iserith wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Talreign wrote:
If you feel this is a problem with the subclass, I think there are some simple solutions if you're DM will allow for it that doens't take a lot of tweaking.
Potential Change 1
Change Frenzy so that upon the conclusion of your frenzy, you gain a level of "Fatigue"
Fatigue defined as - "Fatigue causes effects similar to exhaustion, but more temporary. Combine your total amount of Exhaustion and Fatigue to determine what effects you are currently under"
You can then decide how you want to deal with the power economy. You could restore all levels of fatigue on a long rest if you want to maintain it as a Day by Day type of hindrance. OR you could have any short or long rest restore 1 level of fatigue. You could limit this to a number of times per day equal to 1/2 their total Rages per day.
Potential Change 2
Add an additional 3rd level ability to the Berserker. Not sure what a good name would be but it'd do this:
"The Berserker can will their body to continue beyond most other people. 1/day on a short or long rest they can choose to remove 1 level of exhaustion."
You can potentially up this to 2/day at either 10th or 14th level.
Talreign wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Talreign wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
My Paladin would *love* to get a minute of 'extra attack' for an exhaustion level.
You treat Ability Checks like they are the bread and butter of a Barbarian..... how many intimidate checks do you make in a day? If this was the Rogue or Bard etc you might have a point.
And for a *melee fighter*, such as the Barb, the vast majority of damage will be from BSP damage.... which means the Bear Totem does nothing for you. Don't get me wrong, Bear3 is an awesome power.... if you want to tank. If you want to kill things, the Frenzy (expecially with Reckless attack, and maybe GWM) will put out a lot more damage when you need it.
Coredump00 wrote:
Frenzy is fine in a vacuum. It is a hefty cost, but extra attacks are very powerful. The problem is that roughly 100% of barbarians take GWM, which also gives extra attacks that costs a bonus action. It is the nature of unintended consequences.
Talreign wrote:
Wiz 5 takes Leomund's Tiny Hut, does it as a ritual.
Yeah the level 2 Barb ability dovetails nicely with the Berserk 14 abiilty ... (not that Dovetail and Barbarian normally go together).
iserith wrote:
Even if Berserker was balanced which it isn't, it would still be a terrible mechanic. Exhaustion just makes you feel gimped.
Basic Rules are awesome but a lot of the stuff in the PHB... it seems WotC is totally capable of good design but it takes them a lot of playtesting to get there which the barbarian, the ranger, the druid, the feats didn't seem to have gotten.
First thought was to have stacking, negative temporary HP for every use of rage instead of the exhaustion. You are still as capable as before but you are more frail. The negative max HP is removed with a long rest.
arnwolf666 wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
iserith wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
iserith wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
In my current campaign the party has been getting at least one and sometimes two days of downtime between each fight.
Yes, you heard me right, between every fight.
They've been much more preoccupied with traversing a desert, turning slave cartels against each other and making shady deals with yuan-ti gang leaders.
Talreign wrote:
Talreign wrote:
I agree that it is weak compared to the other options.
How much would it change if the first frenzy per day didn't cause exhaustion?
We so not like throwing in abilities with drawbacks to discourage use anymore. It's a big advantage and something I would save for big encounters.
iserith wrote:
I think abs1nth is inferring some weight to combat rules as a kind of prescription for how to play.
I feel your game is about whatever you make it about. Check out the Summer At The Lake - Actual Play transcripts. Session 1, there's very little combat. I'm playing the barbarian and still enjoy quite a bit of spotlight time. The same goes for 2-3 sessions ago, lots of exploration.
Combat rules are well written and work great, but they don't make your game about combat any more than you want it to be. Combat is an answer, or a way to achieve something in the game world. It is not, in and of itself, the game.
Helpful reminder about exhaustion:
Exhaustion gives disadvantage on initiative rolls, because initiative is a Dexterity ability check.
Just adding that to the discussion because it hasn't been mentioned yet.
Oraibi wrote:
iserith wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Kayal wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
iserith wrote:
Macv12 wrote:
bawylie wrote:
pukunui wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
bawylie wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Mazzy wrote:
"The 35 pages the DM is given on running the game cover combat, combat, more combat, some more combat, chasing people down that run from combat so you can combat them some more, interrupting rests with combat, finding combat as the characters move around and siege weapons.
The rewards players are given are, optionally, magic items that help their combat ability and very specific amounts of XP for murdering things, with wording making it seem less desirable than handing out magic items, you could also give them a vague amount of XP for not murdering things."
The page count for combat is high, so talking to NPCs is a waste of time. Better just kill them for XP. Who even cares about the players' quest to reclaim their ancestors' treasure?!? Let's fight! Can we skip the story part and just roll dice and stubtract until certain values are reduced to zero?
Intentional slippery slope here to show 1.) the page count argument is reductive and 2.) D&D is about what to make it about - and the rules serve that. they serve you. Just because there are more rules for combat doesn't mean anyone's game has to be about combat.
You can pretend it does though.
bawylie wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
A desire, by the players presumably, to try and find non-combat solutions is self supporting and resolving. If that's what they choose to do, that's what is happening. Unless you are the kind of DM who railroads them constantly into combats...
abs1nth wrote:
Let them remove a number of levels of exhaustion, equal to their proficiency bonus, after a long rest...
That could be a good addition to the house rule, scales well, and you still have that power trade at early levels where the extra dmg is most potent.
Yeah, starting out it's only a single extra level of exhaustion per day they can erase. Not too potent, IMO. But later on, it grows as they get more rages in a day. But they still have to manage through the rest of the day with those exhaustion levels before they can recover.
I think I like it.
Starting a new campaign tonight in fact. The wife is playing a dragonborn barbarian. I'll be using this to test it out. See how it goes.
Or, upon further consideration...
What if instead, it's:
"During a short or long rest, you can reduce your level of exhaustion by 1. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus minus 1. You can use this ability only once during a short rest."
This way they can try to keep the exhaustion levels down a little as the day progresses.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
That's up to 5 or 6 levels that can be achieved early on, potentially.
You don't consider that too much? Keeping in mind the limited number of rages a barbarian even gets in a day.
Its been my experience that many games don't go beyond level 4.
When you factor that in, the extra attack at level 3 (bonus action or not) it's pretty nice 
.
Considering how quickly you get to 3, I can't imagine how a 5e campaign ends as early as 4. Except for maybe when outside forces put a kabosh on it, I suppose.
iserith wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
iserith wrote:
Istbor wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
iserith wrote:
I haven't seen anyone mention the consideration that frenzy doesn't kick in until the next round. Given that your typical combat only lasts 3 rounds or so, that seems a rather important consideration in looking at the power of that class feature.
(Apologies if it's already been discussed--I stopped reading details of the discussion a while ago.)
Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
iserith wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
I feel like the most simple house rule for exhaustion is that if you have access to food, water and shelter, you lose half your stacks of exhaustion with a long rest, rounded up.
FFSAA wrote:
iserith wrote:
Yes, making frenzy a bonus action is a hard limitation. Especially in the first round of your rage, you can´t use it, since entering rage itself takes a bonus action too.
On the other hand, frenzy is so strong with a two handed weapon, especially if you don´t use the OPTIONAL feats or multiclassing. A barbarian with a big two handed weapon has no need other needs for his bonus action.
If you are against the brute type of BBEG, this ability is worth a LOT. It is bad in many cases, and you really have to think twice about using it, but it can really mean the difference between winning and losing. One level of exhaustion is not that bad actually. You have disadantage on ability checks... that is not that huge.
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
Psikerlord wrote:
iserith wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
iserith wrote:
I would hate to see what using the Gritty realism rest variant would do to the whole exhaustion condition.
abs1nth wrote:
I just find it sad that nobody has explained why Frenzy should give escalating levels of uselessness that cannot be gotten rid of without spending entire adventuring days without using a core sub-class feature. And disadvantage on all skill checks is not "not a big deal." It's a huge deal, if you plan on doing any sort of roleplaying with your character that doesn't include being too tired to do anything properly.
And if your fix goes to the extent of attempting to get rid of the exhaustion in one fell swoop to get rid of all of it, then why not adopt a simpler "fix": you can Frenzy up to half your number of rages per day for free, and then anything after can incur some sort of penalty. Exhaustion is a terrible penalty, and should not be incurred as part of a use of a core class/sub-class mechanic.
Talreign wrote:
iserith wrote:
Evidently your post had a typo that needed fixing. Because otherwise, if you were actually talking about roleplaying, I'm not sure what disadvantage has to do with anything.
abs1nth wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
Talreign wrote:
Chaosmancer wrote:
iserith wrote:
abs1nth wrote:
iserith wrote:
iserith wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Talreign wrote:
I honestly think that if this was an ability that was usable once per long rest there would be no problem or discussion about this ability. But since there is a limitation on continued use of it and people hate drawbacks then there is a problem with this ability. People hate negatives and penalties with a passion.
It's an interesting and escalating limitation because if you have to long rest it off, it takes a few days to get rid of multiple levels.
Which also suggests to me the devs knew the extra attack was potent and intended for that ability to be used fairly sparingly.
Half damage from everything is pretty friggin strong.
A lot of enemies already did B/S/P damage, but then again dragons and wizards are a thing...
Also it is kind of a big deal that Initiative is a Dexterity check....so 1 level of exhaustion hits you pretty hard in every fight.
Advantage on your dex save AND resistance to their damage is basically like that scene in Avengers where Bruce Banner turns around and hulks out right before the big alien monster hits them.
Frenzy barbarian after 2 rages is more like Loki right after he tried to monologue to Hulkulese.
Level 3 Frenzy ability basically says -all those other cool class features you get for the next 11 levels are worth JACK **** if you use me!-
I never found losing initiative to be very detrimental. The first round it matters, but I generally want the spellcasters to go first anyway. It is helpful to the rogue when the tank can get in position so he can sneak attack, so there are hindrances to it.
Talreign wrote:
UngeheuerLich wrote:
Talreign wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
[Edit: Stoopid formatting glitches. Can't pull my response out of the quote block. Bolded is my response:]
magiwildcard wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
magiwildcard wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
magiwildcard wrote:
Mommy_was_an_Orc wrote:
The biggest problem for me remains that you are penalized on the very first usage of Frenzy. I have no problem with abilities that apply penalties or get harder when used multiple times (take Overchannel, or the Barbarian's own Relentless Rage, for example). But the general philosophy seems to be to allow one free usage with such an ability before you get penalized. From the very first time I saw Frenzy I found it incredibly underwhelming, and I think that is probably why. One free use without penalty is probably what I'm going to houserule and see if it feels up to par that way.
I also agree with those who have said that the Berserker just feels underwhelming compared to the Totem Warrior in general. It feels a bit better than the Ranger to me, but still just isn't appealing. (And I've run math that shows that the Hunter Ranger is a pretty good multi-opponent damage machine--but it still feels weak for some reason.)
Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
I personally find it a little strange that at the height at his Berserker frenzy, the barbarian is at no point risking any kind of damage to himself or his party. It's high risk vs. reward gameplay, but done in the least dramatic way possible (a harsh punishment at the end for doing exactly what the character is designed to do). To me, Barbarians are about DRAMA! When a barbarian rages, everyone should be a little nervous.
In 5th edition, Raging is just a bonus and the only real incentive to continue putting yourself in risky situations is (attacking or taking damage) is that Rage will end early if neither of these conditions are met and you'll lose your precious bonuses.
I'm going to borrow a bit of Savage Worlds for my Frenzy house rule, and until some errata comes out to balance things out, change it as follows:
Frenzy:
Starting when you choose this path at 3rd level, you can go into a frenzy when you rage. If you do so, for the duration of your Frenzied Rage you can make a single melee weapon attack as a bonus action on each of your turns after this one. Unlike a standard Rage, a Frenzied Rage can only be ended prematurely as a bonus action if you succeed on a WIS check against DC [???]. If you allow the Rage to end prematurely before its full 1-minute duration for any other reason or through a bonus action without passing the WIS check, you suffer one level of exhaustion.
I'm still debating on the DC difficulty since I will allow this check to be aided by others. But what this does is force the barbarian to think carefully about when he is going to really unleash, creating scenarios where the Berserker almost relishes being completely outnumbered with plenty of targets around to run through the Frenzy's full duration. It also rewards Berserkers who don't min-max by giving them a bit more reason to consider WIS (although I'm considering changing this check to CHA). Lastly, if the Berserker is still frenzying at the end of a fight, it adds a bit of drama as the Berkerser who fails his WIS check must decide:
- Do I hurt myself or an ally to keep the rage going and give myself another chance to WIS-save? Or do I dig deep into my body's physical reserves to regain control, and suffer exhaustion?
The second time he rages after the exhaustion is even riskier, since the Berserker suffers a disadvantage to the very ability check that he relies on to stop and calm himself. Now it becomes a group effort, as the party decides whether one of them wants to Help the Berkser pass this check, or just take Defense actions to protect themselves from his wrath.
Generally, this choice will come at the end of the battle, when the danger has abated, which to me pretty consistent with traditional Berserker tropes. "Sure, he's a great ally to have in battle. But what happens when he's out of enemies to kill?"
I figure if anyone doesn't like this change, they can just play normally, taking exhaustion at the end of the rage as per usual.
Tautolitarian wrote:
I think I would redo Frenzy where the exhaustion works the same, just allow a bonus action to be used for 1 melee attack. That's a pretty potent ability to be used and saved for the big encounters. Or heck use for the encounter at the end of the day during guard duty.
arnwolf666 wrote:
Rowan_Whispercloak wrote:
CVB wrote:
Tautolitarian wrote:
Kayal wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Kayal wrote:
Talreign wrote:
Patron1972 wrote:
Patron1972 wrote:
Patron1972 wrote: