Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Thank_Dog Sep 28, 2014 5:08:26	I've always found Wisdom being used for Perception to be a bad fit. I know how it's described and that Wisdom is essentially engineered to be the Perception stat, however it has simply never sat right with me. Sherlock Holmes wasn't what I would consider wise however I would consider him highly intelligent. To me, Intelligence is the stat that fits Perception the best.   So I'd like to hear pros and cons for this as a potential alternate rule or house rule. Intelligence seems to have gotten the short end of the stick in this edition and I think Perception would give it a nice boost in addition to being a better fit. What do you think?
#2 iserith Sep 28, 2014 5:16:47	Sherlock Holmes is using Intelligence (Investigation) when he's trying to find clues or trying to determine what those clues mean. (That is, when actions taken to that end are determined to have an uncertain outcome and a chance of failure according to the DM.)   So if you're playing an Intelligence-based character, just put everything in terms of clue-finding and clue-interpreting if you can. If the DM calls for a check, a case could be made that you're making an Intelligence (Investigation) check rather than a Wisdom (Perception) check. If you are searching for a secret door, say "I look for clues that indicate the presence of a secret door, such as footprints ending at a wall, misalignment of the stonework, or a sliver of light coming from its seam." If the DM has properly telegraphed the presense of a trap by including a few clues, interact with those clues and say you're trying to determine if they are telltale signs of a trap in the area." Then see what the DM says.   Ultimately, I think a lot of the problems that come with issues of Perception and Investigation come down to the DM failing to adequately describe the environment and asking for too many skill checks.
#3 Mecheon Sep 28, 2014 6:13:10	The stereotypical absent-minded wizard is High Int, low Wisdom   I can't see them being the type who'd be all that perceptive
#4 Karnos Sep 28, 2014 7:08:04	I think perception is fine as wisdom while investigate is int.  The issue is that by default almost everything assumes using passive perception.  I think passive investigation makes more sense for things like noticing hidden doors, or traps, or secrets.
#5 Orzel Sep 28, 2014 7:21:27	Active senses is INT Passive senses is WIS   When I DM, clues and items have different DCs for active and passive.   If a clue is under some rags or rubble, the passive WIS DC is 5 to 10 points higher than the active DC because you won't see it well unless you purpusely move stuff.
#6 Monsieur_Moustache Sep 28, 2014 8:01:51	I use Wisdom as a measure of civilization, covering "civilized" concepts going from imagination to faith.   I use Constitution for everything related to instinct (more skills for Constitution, and no animals wiser than people in my game) I use skills to perceive things related to the domain covered (you want to appraise, you have to know the craft. You want to counter deception, you have to know how to deceive)   Perceptions are also matter of training and habit, so I find it very dumb to limit them to one or two ability scores. You can have the highest ability score, you perceive nothing if you are stressed and in an unfamiliar situation, and being in a group can also alter how you perceive things. Using the related skills (and not broad isolated perception skills) is a good compromise IMO.
#7 SpedGuy Sep 28, 2014 8:27:09	Monsieur_Moustache wrote:
(Reply to #7) Monsieur_Moustache	SpedGuy wrote:
(Reply to #4) Shiroiken	Karnos wrote:
#10 Keendk Sep 28, 2014 14:29:17	Thank_Dog wrote:
#11 Thank_Dog Sep 28, 2014 15:25:22	Constitution as the Perception stat. Hmm. Crap, now I like that idea. All the five senses connected to your health and physical well-being does make sense. And yes, incredibly wise animals is bloody stupid, as are perceptive priests.   And yeah, Medicine and Survival as Wisdom stats is such an obvious mechanical kludge meant to benefit clerics and rangers, it's really quite annoying.
(Reply to #11) arnwolf666	Thank_Dog wrote:
#13 Jenks Sep 29, 2014 0:26:53	Wisdom = General awareness of your surroundings. Sounds like a good fit to me.
#14 Thank_Dog Sep 29, 2014 3:22:00	Jenks wrote:
#15 Pangur Sep 29, 2014 4:53:22	Thank_Dog wrote:
(Reply to #15) Monsieur_Moustache	Pangur wrote:
#17 Thank_Dog Sep 29, 2014 6:40:31	Maybe Perception should be divorced from abilities altogether? A pseudo-stat all its own.
#18 Pangur Sep 29, 2014 7:50:23	Monsieur_Moustache wrote:
#19 Joe_the_Rat Sep 29, 2014 8:10:06	Thank_Dog wrote:
#20 Rastapopoulos Sep 29, 2014 14:11:37	iserith wrote:
#21 iserith Sep 29, 2014 14:20:03	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#22 Thank_Dog Sep 29, 2014 15:32:19	Joe_the_Rat wrote:
#23 arnwolf666 Sep 29, 2014 15:36:34	To do the game the way some people would want would require several dozen attributes instead of the six that we have.
#24 DarkSphinx Sep 29, 2014 18:18:04	I think Wisdom should reflect more knowing WHEN to look for something, and, thus, is more of a "sixth sense" than representative of actual senses.  This fits well with the idea of passive Perception.  Actual physical senses of note ought to be relegated to exceptionally good abilities (or exceptionally bad in some cases!) such that, in 5e, "advantage" or "disadvantage" are invoked.   -DS
#25 DarkSphinx Sep 29, 2014 19:09:29	On the other hand, adding INT bonus to a roll (if the DM thinks it is appropriate to apply it) for just about anything in the game is probably perfectly justifiable.  I really like the StoryTeller system of abilities/attributes which divides them into Physical, Mental, and Social, each with a Power, Finesse, and Resistance part.  In converting from this ninefold system to the traditional sixfold D&D, I keep the physical (STR, DEX, CON/Stamina) as a one-to-one mapping.  I group mental power and mental finesse as INT, and social power and social finesse as CHA.  This leaves mental resistance and social resistance combining to form a comparitively passive WIS.   So, if you feel like INT has gotten short shrift in this edition, by all means, add that INT bonus to Perception (or anything else you want!).   -DS
#26 Pangur Sep 30, 2014 2:10:40	Thank_Dog wrote:
#27 Joe_the_Rat Sep 30, 2014 9:49:54	Pangur wrote:
#28 Einlanzer Oct 03, 2014 9:40:47	Wisdom was always a weird and kind of arbitrary stat.  Will saves and Animal Handling make more sense for Charisma, IMO.  Intuition and Perception are not even really comparable to one another.     It really does almost seem like Awareness should be its own stat and almost everything else should moved into Int or Cha.  The system as a whole would arguably benefit from this anyway as the concept behind awareness/perception could be expanded significantly and int and cha could be more balanced with the physical stats.
#29 Illithidbix Oct 03, 2014 11:37:11	Wisdom seems to always been primarily a mix of two quite different concepts.   Perception/Awearness and Willpower. With "intuition/common sense" sometimes thrown into the mix.   Perception and willpower tends to end up as different stats    Interesting the 5E PHB kinda plays down the "Willpower" side of things, but still seems to apply for most of the stuff that uses Wisdom saving throws. Charisma could actually take up the slack then as it's kinda "Force of personality" but that would kinda undermine the "weak willed liar" trope.   Personally I've also been a fan of using Perception instead of Dexterity (or agility or whatever it's called) for ranged weapons, at least long ranged ones.
#30 Pangur Oct 03, 2014 11:53:12	Einlanzer wrote: