Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Karnos Jul 05, 2014 10:05:22	Since point-buy and standard array limit your highest scores to 15, there is not very much benefit from the +2 bonuses some races get.  The best ability score modifier any character can get normally is +3, by taking a 15 and adding +1 or +2 to it from racial bonus.   There isn't really a big advantage to having a 17 over a 16, since you gain ability points two at a time, so the racial +2 bonuses are not going to make a big difference.   I suppose, with array builds, non-human races have the slight bonus of starting with 2 16 scores, while a human can only have one.  But in point buy, even this minor advantage is lost, and humans can actually start with 3 16 scores (if they choose to leave the other 3 scores at 9).   The alternate races still have other benefits, I am not trying to argue that Humans are the OP master race.  I just wanted to share this observation I noticed.   Obviously in any non-organized play compaign, rolling for stats or using a point-buy option that allows for 16s or 18s would "fix" this problem.
#2 abanathie Jul 05, 2014 10:45:55	It depends on your patience on whether or not an odd score is worth it.   As a non-human, you could get two sixteens by placing your 15 with your +1 boost and placing your 14 with your +2 boost.  A human would get a 16 and 15 in that regard.  So, I wouldn't say that the array inherently favors humans.  With the point buy, you can still place a majority of odd scores to maximize your output with a human.  On the other hand, you can allocate a single odd "roll" with the rest being even for the demi-human races.  You just have to approach it differently depending on your race.
#3 zamubafoo Jul 06, 2014 17:56:19	I did the math for reddit, but here is my result. http://imgur.com/LfvKurk Since a +2 to a ability score only increases your modifier by +1, humans are the only ones who can easily achieve total sum modifier of  +10 within 27-point point buy.
(Reply to #3) AH_schulerta	Same problem Humans had in the playtest, boring yet powerful. I would take +1 to everything over Darkvision, Armor/Weapon Prof, Stonecunning, just about everything except Lucky.
#5 edwin_su Jul 06, 2014 18:46:36	yes you can make a bit more use of the point buy system as the human when you are making a character at a certain level. If you run the character over a oner time ( wider level range) the initial advantages levels out.
#6 Thunaer Jul 06, 2014 19:26:31	If humans do not have some avantage then why play them compared to the other races?
#7 Emerikol. Jul 06, 2014 19:30:52	I also think that an attribute increase allows +1 to two different ability scores instead of +2 to one.  So any odd situation can be played to your advantage.  The 17 can be increased along with another odd score.   So overall I don't think this is a big deal.   By the time you reach your 3rd through 6th scores, getting a +1 isn't worth that much.   If you are a caster it's even worse.
#8 Ahglock Jul 06, 2014 19:34:45	+1 to every stat is actually fairly weak as you wont be using every stat very often.  Without the proficiencies a +1 here and there isn't that great.  So your mage has an 12 strength, so what how does that help them?  You are still going to fail your strength checks and saves.  Is your fighter really that much better because his intelligence, wisom, charisma and dexterity are 1 higher?  Well dex wont matter as you are in heavy armor and the rest of the stats it helps on some novelty level but not much mechanically. The occasional build with off theme backgrounds will get a tiny perk out of this but its smaller of a perk than the non-humans get in their package of useful abilities.    +2,+1 is better in itself and then non-humans get a pile of abilities that are also far better than a few +1 to stats.  Humans were weak when non-humans got to stats at +1, now they are even weaker.
#9 AquaticSpaceChicken Jul 06, 2014 20:14:46	I think it depends on if the non-human's stat boosts go with the class.   Standard Array: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8   Array+Human: 16, 15, 14, 13, 11, 9 (+1 to all stats)   Unless one plans to sink stat increases into the character's lowest stats as they level, that's half of the human's racial ability not doing anything.   Array+Non-Human: 15, 16, 14, 12, 10, 8 (+2 to the 14, +1 to the 13)   It all depends on if the bonuses go to primary stats. There is no rule that says one must make the 15 into a 17.   For point buy, it all depends on where you want your stats.   27 point buy human: 16, 16, 14, 11, 10, 10   27 point buy non-human: 16, 16, 14, 11, 10, 8   But if I use a Mountain Dwarf I can get stats equal to that human in  point buy, plus have Darkvision! (I'll want to be playing a fighter, though)   To me it appears that non-humans will always be the better choice as long as you choose a class ideal to their stat bonuses. If one is playing against type, they will suffer a bit. Humans strike me as underpowered.
#10 FFSAA Jul 06, 2014 20:34:16	Ahglock wrote:
#11 Lawolf Jul 06, 2014 20:36:10	How important is a +1 to your 4th, 5th, and 6th most important attribute. Usually, not all that important in my experience. Definitely not when compared to darkvision, re-rolling 1s, advantage to saves vs poison/charms/sleep/etc, free cantrips, free armor proficiencies, and all those other neat racial bonuses.
#12 Nivek_Loneshadow Jul 06, 2014 21:28:01	I agree with Lawolf statement.   Personally think humans are both boring and underpowered.  I'm glad to see they are offering the varient for humans but even that varient seems a liitle on the week side.  We'll have to see just how powerful feats are but it looks like we've already seen them.   Human Feat = Ability score improvement.  (Thats +2) skill = one of the humans plus ones? +1 to an ability +1 to a second ability   This seems to equal about 5 of the 6 +1s.  Granted the sixth one is juts for show because even with point buy it ends up "odd" and meaningless.   Do those of you who find humans imbalanced think this varient brings them closer?  same? even weaker?
#13 Zardnaar Jul 06, 2014 21:32:41	I had a play with point buy for the human.   Base stats 10 11 11 11 13 15   After racial mods 11 12 12 12 14 16    After mods. No dump stat as such, +1 or higher on almost every save and a 16 in your primary.   You could also do this after racial mods   14 14 14 14 14 11
#14 Lawolf Jul 06, 2014 21:51:43	Zard, that seems nice in theory, but for the fighter or barbarian Int and Cha really don't do much. You could get 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 10 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha with a Dwarf fighter which is much better than 16, 14, 12, 12, 12, 11. And on top of having better stats, the dwarf gets a buttload of other racial bonuses. The same case can be made for the other classes as well using other races. Things look even worse for the poor human with rolled stats. A non-human can start with a 20!!! For example.
#15 Zardnaar Jul 06, 2014 22:05:55	Lawolf wrote:
#16 Lawolf Jul 06, 2014 23:08:39	Zardnaar wrote:
#17 Zardnaar Jul 06, 2014 23:21:35	Lawolf wrote:
#18 Tony_Vargas Jul 06, 2014 23:39:01	Lawolf wrote: