In my Brutal 2 thread I ran a long session today and really threw the kitchen sink at the PCs up to and including a Wyvern at level 3 and a variety of monsters including mobs, swarms, undead, solo monsters, and 3-4 tougher monsters.
The power combo I seem to be struggling with is the Bard+Diviner Wizard. They both have sleep as a spell which in 3.5 at least had a save and in AD&D the bard and wizard would not get to chose those spells.
The bard also has a odd spell list as it includes Faerie Fire which has been buffed over its 1st ed incarnation which was the best version of it. Usually hits multiple targets even with a save, enables advantage. Anything that can't be sleeped gets hit with that.
The diviner wizard insight ability (level 2) lets them roll 2 dice and give the results to PCs or the enemy. Crap rolls get assigned to the enemy, good rolls go to the PCs, diviners in this edition also get 2 spells at level 1 which do not have to be divination spells. They also get cantrips as well which scale and deal more damage than ye old level 1 wizard spells do.
Damage spells all around have also been buffed at lower levels. Magic Missile, Guiding Bolt, Burning Hands etc all seem to deal damage comparable to level 4-6 spellcasters in older editions. A fireball at level 5 just deals a flat 8d6 damage (level 8 in older editions) . Bards can also steal spells from other spell lists and my player she is salivating over what ones to steal. Fireball, Lightning Bolt, fly, and the Paladin melee spells as well as she can yoink them and use them at level 9 or 10 it seems compared to the Paladins level 17.
And even if they run out of spells the Bard can still buff and debuff using inspiration and vicious mockery which is quite good at shutting down tough melee types with garbage will saves which seems to be most of the monsters and NPCs in the DM PDF. Monsters are tougher in terms of hit points and damage but even more useless due to crappier saves for the most part. The bard doesn't really seem to run out of stuff anytime soon.
It is also hard to die in this edition it seems. No coup de grace or death at -10 just go to 0 hit points and odds are you will not die even if no one heals or stabilises you. Several classes also seem to regenerate with short rests. This is on top of copious amounts of healing. The Bard makes a good Rogue replacement it seems and you level up so fast at level 1-3 there does actually seem to be a chance to hit the next level 1st before you deplete your daily resources. 4 sleeps per day at level 1 let the others mop up whats left, level 2, 6 sleeps per day+ class abilities.
I have been throwing the encounter level guidlines out the window. All I need is to find critters with good dexterity and wisdom saves that are immune to all spells, class abilites and death by being beaten senseless.
The game is fun kind of but very tempted to limit it to Basic D&D and no feats at this rate and the PCs are only level 4 and can shrug off Hobgoblin enchanced critcal hits along with bugbears. Healing word as a bonus action as well I forgot to mention which normally leads to a second wind as a bonus action followed by a short rest to get 2nd wind back along with a wizard spell and channel divinity.
I also forgot to mention the war cleric has the heavy weapon master feat which combines with his chanel divinity power and the Divners ability to assign him a high dice roll. For thoiose of you wondering why I was a bit upset in the playtest over stuff like this it more or less forces you to play like 4E where you ahve to grind the PCs resources down more or less in a game of rocket tag to boot. It made it easier to pace encounters in older ediitons as you had a reasonable way to work out roughly how much trouble the PCs would be in.
TLDR powerful spells+class abilities+ copious healing and damage mitigation and this game seems very very broken worse than 3.5 starting at level 1 unlike 3.5. And thats just with the PHB. At least older D&Ds seemed to break somewhere north of level 6. And it took a bit longer to get there as well, 12 hours in level 4 already and half way to level 5.
BTW just take a party of 2 bards (1 of each subclass) 2 clerics (war and light/tempest), 1 fighter type or replace with a wizard.
Zardnaar wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
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yeah if you have a party with lots of short rest resets, then having a wilderness trek with lots of short rests will tend to be on the easy side. The answer is very simple however, just add more monsters. if your party has lots of sleep spells, from time to time double the number of monsters. Or triple them. Whatever it takes to give them a good, interesting fight. I had a similar issue in the thundertree part of mines of phandelver. There was a ruined building, supposed to have 2 twig blights in it. I made it 25 twig blight instead. Much more interesting!
Each dart of a Magic Missle deals 1d4+1 damage--the same amount they have done since 1st edition. You get one more dart for each level of slot you use above 1st--this is strictly weaker than was the case in older editions since in older editions you got more darts for you being higher level. If you want 2 darts you have to use a 2nd level slot wherease you used to get a second dart for being 3rd level and still using a 1st level slot.
Having multiple casters with Sleep is certainly handy for the party. However at 5d8 for the number of hp the spell can affect, you're looking at average at 23 hps per casting--sufficient to put 2 CR 1/4 targets to sleep on average, or one CR 1/2 creature. By the time you're dealing with CR 1 creatures you're beginning to have to roll above average to affect them. To get a tiger, you'd need to roll 3 points less than max--something that happens 0.14% of the time. A CR 2 Gargoyle, while possibly put to sleep by Sleep cast from a 2nd level slot, is pretty likely not to be affected and has damage resistance from non-magical, non-adamantine weapons.
Neither wizard nor bard recovers spells except on a long rest. So that is four spells they can cast at 1st level per day. If your day has 6 encounters (and the recommended is 6 to 8 IIRC) there is no way they are using a spell per encounter, let alone teaming up effects.
Bardic Inpiration dice are also recovered with long rests. The most a Bard will ever have is 5 dice for the day with a Charisma of 20. And those dice, once used, are gone. Similarly, the Portent dice are also recovered on a long rest and you only get 2 per day.
As goes 0 hp and dying, you are as likely to fail 3 times as you are to make it 3 times if nobody helps you. So no, you are not likely to make it, it is a 50-50 chance. Moreover, somethig put you down in the first place. Each time you are attacked while at 0 hp you automatically fail your death saving throw. A non-intelligent creature, say a wolf, will probably attempt to drag your limp body away from combat because you were what it was after. That means continuing to deal damage as it bites you and drags you. Intelligent opponents will probably focus fire on those still standing, giving breathing room to the collapsed. Less honorable intelligent opponents will possibly spend one attack "dispatching" their former enemy (you) giving you one failed saving throw off the bat. Being at zero hp is in no way something to be unconcerned with. And that bit about continuing to attack a creature at zero hp. . .that's your coup de grace.
N4M8- wrote:
N4M8- wrote:
masterfat78 wrote:
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dmgorgon wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
masterfat78 wrote:
Have you tried having the remaining NPCs wake up the sleepers? If all you do is leave them to be auto-Crit (the players still have to hit, be within 5 feet, and have advantage) then you're doing it wrong. Depending on the circumstances you should be using remaining monsters to wake up the sleepers.
Have you tried the LMoP starter adventure? It has a good mix of enemies. Goblins can disengage as a bonus action to pick on the casters and have decent AC when using their shields. Hobgoblins have a low chance to hit (only +3) but can sneak attack and have very good AC. Bandits die easily but their multi-attack is nasty.
Much of your issue appears to be with managing Sleep, it's potent but manageable (it doesn't work on Undead or Elves). Technically a Fey Pact Warlock can cast Sleep 1-2x every short rest, but the spell definitely loses effectiveness at higher levels. As someone else said, mix in random low levels, let the players burn their Resources sleeping them, have an NPC use an action to wake up one or two, them have those wake up the others. Your players will either have to now rush to focus down the mooks to avoid wasting the auto-Crit their sleep gives them (ignoring the bigger threats) or at most they gain a slight reprieve and then have to deal with annoying goblins plinking arrows at them.
masterfat78 wrote:
Zardnaar wrote:
N4M8- wrote:
Use obvious Big Bad(s) with strategically placed mooks who begin in stealth/invisibility/full cover.
1eejit wrote:
Well if your players are playing intelligently and taking full advantage of their characters' abilities you've gotta be a sneaky bastard to give them a challenge 
1eejit wrote:
@Zardnaar: I think you should compare what is comparable.
The low level spells in 3e/AD&D really needed a buff. How often did a 1st level wizard use magic missile in your games when they can cast sleep?
Also, the damage might look higher in this edition but these spells deal a smaller fraction of a monster's HPs. In AD&D/C&C, a 5d6 fireball does a massive amount of damage to those poor little ogres that have 4d8+3 HPs. An 8d6 fireball against an ogre that has 7d8+massive constitution bonus deals a smaller fraction of the ogre's HPs. The constitution bonus to monster HPs is the culprit here.
As for the broken combos, what you're talking about does sound kind of ugly. But it's not really surprising that your players find these killer combos if they've been playing D&D for decades.
TLDR: Hope this doesn't cause offence - it's a new system and I'm doing stuff wrong, for sure. Just, it sounds like maybe you're not running the rules quite correct...?
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I've been hearing Sleep held out all over the place as overpowered, but I'm not sure if people are doing it right (?). Maybe I'm* not doing it right.
It's 5d8 hitpoints worth. That's an average of 22.5 at first level, with an extra 9 hitpoints per level-slot over. If another bad guy spends an action, they can wake a sleeping friend.
At level 1 we're talking 4 kobolds (5hp each), or 3 goblins (7hp) - remember, 6 hitpoints worth of sleep won't do anything, you need to roll 28 to get the fourth goblin. You're more likely to only get 2. Hobgoblins are 11hp a piece. At level 1 there's close to a 50% chance of only getting 1, though yeah, you'll probably get 2. At level 2 you'll get 2 or 3 (under a 50% chance of 3). Level 1 will get one orc, and at level 2 on average will just barely get 2.
Importatly, a 3rd level wizard gets two level 2 spell slots, with a third one only after a short rest. So three, total, all day.
Sleep is pretty decent, but is it really that overpowered?
Against, for example, 4 hobgoblins and 2 ogres (from the post above), a first level sleep would usually knock out two Hobgoblins. With a second level slot it'll get two, maybe three if you're a bit lucky. Which is good, but even three Hobgoblins are only 33 hp out of the 160hp or so in the encounter. If I was DMing, I'd have any awake Hobgoblins spend their first activations waking the sleeping ones up, while the Ogres tanked-and-spanked.
This got too long. Bascially what I'm checking is: are you doing Sleep right? It's only 5d8 (or 7d8 at level 2) hitPOINTS, right? Not CR level or hitdice or whatever. And you don't get to add any INT modifier or anything, just straight dice...
So it doesn't work at all on Owlbears or Ogres, right? Or a Wyvern. Or Skellies. A Bugbear needs a whole level 2 spell, and anything else near it can spend an action to wake it.
Against 16 hobgoblins, or a priest-and-Ogre-and-8-Hobgoblins, or a Dragonborn dood and 8 hobgoblins, on the first round a massive two level 2 Sleeps would take out 5 hobgoblins total. And other hobgoblins would lose their activations waking them straight back up.
Basically, most of those encounters above, a level 2 Sleep, or even two of them, shouldn't really make them a cake-walk. It's a good spell, true, but in a lot of ways a level 2 sleep is giving something like a kinda-sorta half-a-surprise round, at best.
Level 1 Burning Hands, for example, will do about the same number of HP in "damage" as level 1 sleep, if it can get three targets in the blast, and although it might not take away attacks (failing to kill), that damage is permanent, and can't be removed by enemies taking an action...
And the Diviner gets to use two rolls, once each, per day. Once that low roll is used, it's gone.
Oh, and of course Hold Person doesn't work on a Wyvern. And Sleep doesn't work. So I'm not sure how the combo made that one easy. That thing should be pretty much one-rounding level 3 characters. The sting does 23 damage even if they make their save. Two attacks, +11 to each attack roll, and 11 damage for the bite + 23-35 damage for the sting. The Diviner could prevent one attack with his saved low-roll. The Bard gets maybe 4 uses of Cutting Words per day. So even if they shut that Wyvern down for two turns, surely it'll still survive to at least drop a character or two, if not kill them...?
N4M8- wrote:
Alynn wrote: