First off, I love the adventure. They wrote a great how-to-DM adventure with a fun and rewarding story. I'm running two separate groups through the adventure in a week.
Unfortunately, I've noticed that there are a few problems with the adventure itself. I've listed them here. If anyone has any information or ideas about these, please let us know.
WARNING: contains adventure spoilers
[p.08] Kennel
text says that two wolves are chained up, but there are actually 3 wolves in the room.
I suppose one wolf could have been hidden from view when the Box Text was read, but it seems unfair to describe seeing two wolves, then all of sudden there are 3 fighting them.
[p.20] Cellar
There are two doors leading out of this room, but the Box Text only mentioned ONE of them. The unmentioned door belongs to Area 2 and they can possibly ambush the PCs in Area 1. Sounds like this is an important detail to leave out.
[p.29] Old Owl Well.
The quest guy said: “find out who’s there and what they’re up to”. It does not say "slay whoever you find." So WHY then does this encounter give PCs four times the XP for defeating the Evil Mage NPC in combat instead of parleying successfully? On page 12 it says "If the adventurers come up with a non-violent way to neutralize the threat that a monster poses, award them experience points as if they had defeated it". Certainly succeeding at diplomacy against an evil mage and his dozen zombies represents a neutralized threat.
[p.30] Blighted Cottages
Text says to award 50 XP for defeating the Twig Blights here, but it should be 150 XP. There are 6 Twig Blights at 25 XP each.
[p.31] A Druid’s Watch
There are no combat notes for the NPC Druid. What if the players convince him to help try to drive off the Dragon? He might have useful spells.
[p.31] Ash Zombie sidebar
The text never actually explains what the Zombie “Ash Puff” ability is suppose to do, in terms of the story. I suppose we could guess that damaging an Ash Zombie causes a cloud of black ash to appear from the wound, choking anyone in the cloud unless they succeed on a DC 10 Con save. But it doesn't say anything like that at all. Since the story is that this whole village was overrun by Ash Zombies, the Adventure text should at least give them a little spotlight and actually explain the thing that makes them special.
[p.32] Blighted Farmhouse.
There are 8x Twig Blights and it says 2 blights go for the north door and 2 blights go for the south door for every round for 3 rounds. But it should only take them TWO rounds, not 3 rounds, since there are only 8 monsters.
[p.33] Venomfang, the Green Dragon.
Why are there no roleplaying notes for the Dragon?!!? One of the PreGen characters has a specific personal goal to drive away the dragon. There's a quest or two to deal with the dragon. They're going to want to talk to the Dragon at some point. Seems like an unfortunate oversight not to include personality traits, ideals, bonds, and flaws for the Dragon.
Actually, it would be cool if the PCs came up to the Dragon’s Lair right as the Dragon Cultists were trying to make an alliance with it. They could have over heard some NPC dialogue which would lead to some interesting roleplaying situations later on.
[p.35] Wyvern Tor
The Orcs here are scouts for the Many Arrows tribe….but the orc use javelins and not bows? Fail.
[p.35] Orc Camp
The text says the PCs can attempt one check per hour to see if they find the camp…but says nothing about what happens in the meantime. So basically the players are just supposed to keep rolling every hour until they find it? Feels like a hastily written part of the adventure.
Here are some ideas for encounters at Wyvern Tor:
* The PCs find signs of the orcs. A stray bloody arrow. Old campsites. Hacked trees. This means they're getting closer to the main camp.
* The PCs come across a butchered animal. It was clearly killed for sport and not food. Builds tension about how savage these orcs are.
* The PCs encounter a single orc carrying two large bucket of water. The orc (named Krokk) looks pretty wounded and has a bad limp. He only has 5 hit points left. Krokk lost some sort of tribal contest and is now being hazed, bullied, and picked on. The Ogre Gog is especially tough on him. Gog sent Krokk to fetch him some water from a nearby stream. Krokk is muttering curses in Orcish as the PCs encounter him. Unless the PCs were specifically being stealthy and their checks beat his Passive Perception score, then neither side is surprised. Krokk's weapon is on his belt but he doesn't immediately go for it because he REALLY doesn’t want to spill any water. The Ogre will surely beat him up good for that. This opens up a possible alliance between Krokk and the party! If the party promises to kill the Ogre and the current leader Brughor, and help support Krokk for the new band leader, then Krokk promises to move the tribe to a new location. Diplomacy instead of Brute Force. This would be a great way to run the mini quest.
[p.41] Gundren Rockseeker
This one is by far the worst problem in the adventure. There is no advice for how to roleplay Gundren Rockseeker!!! He gave the party their first quest. The party's first encounter shows the scene where he was captured. One of the major plot hooks is searching for him and his map. And yet, there are no notes for how to roleplay him!??! That's a real shame.
[p.49] Temple of Dumathoin
The Drow is described as wearing black leather armor…but the Drow’s stats don’t mention or include any armor…And Mage Armor (which is listed in the Drow stat block) specifically doesn't function if the target is wearing armor. Sooo....yeah.
[p.59] Drow
The Drow has the Faerie Fire spell but it's not included in the starter set rules. (I know this is already a known issue)
[p.63] Wolves
The wolves have a Passive Perception of 13, but also Keen senses. Shouldn’t this improve their Passive Perception score by 5? Having Advantage on your Perception roll gives you a +5 bonus to your Passive Perception. (source: Hiding, Basic Rules pg 60)
Discuss.
Can't say much about the rest, but I can clarify the Many Arrows tribe of orcs owe their name to King Obould Many-Arrows, who established their orcish kingdom, rather than it being a tribal name alluding to orcish archery.
Brimleydower wrote:
No one else has any comments on these things? Has no one else run into these problems when playing or reading through the adventure?
Some of the obvious errata you mention doesn't really bother me too much, since it's easily detected and corrected. The lack of roleplaying notes for some of the more important villains and NPC's is more troubling, though I can fill in the blanks here as well. I haven't attempted to run the adventure yet, but from the sessions I have seen online, most DM's are managing just fine, improvising certain details and adjusting certains things as good DM's are wont to do.
The thing that bothers me the most is the absence of RP info for the dragon. I mean, Dragons are in the very logo next to Dungeons: it's logical then that, as exploring a dungeon is a complex experience, so should be interacting with a dragon. I mean, The Desolation of Smaug sucked big time (at least for me), but Smaug himself was powerful and intimidating BECAUSE he was more than a monster.
[p.08] Kennel
I noticed that one too on my pre readthrough. probibly a typo
[p.29] Old Owl Well.
Leaving a guy with zombie to wander around seems like a threat still and I would give the pc's less xp too
[p.30] Blighted Cottages
I thought that was bonus xp for the situation but maybe a typo.
[p.31] Ash Zombie sidebar
I was curious on that too. figured it was just visual
[p.41] Gundren Rockseeker
A small block of personality trates would be nice here I agree.
[p.63] Wolves
Ahh I missed that one good catch.
Yeah, I too am mostly concerned with the lack of notes for the Dragon. Maybe he just isn't talkative? Lol.
I really haven't run into any major issues while running the starter though, even with some errors in the pack. I ended up just running the dragon like you would expect, he is trying to claim this region and tower as his domain, so he is aggressive and arrogant. I even had him try to enlist the players as his agents, as he tries to bring this place under his control. One of the players really wanted to buy in to his offers of power, but was voted down.
All in all so far my first group's experience has been hard and bloody. My second group never ceases to do things entirely differently. I loving it.
Did I mention this is the first published adventure I have ever run as a DM? So far so good.
I've gotten through part 2 so far (meaning the pcs went right to bandits than wandered around talking to friggin everyone and picking up plot hooks.) the wolves I just said 3 when describing the room. Most other things I'm not to worried about. The dwarf could use some rp notes but I'll have an easy enough time w/him. The dragon has some motivations buried in the text at least. So that should be fine to.
I noticed many of the same things, and I share your take on most of the issues. Here are a few specific thoughts:
I agree with Keen_Man on the Old Owl Well. I wouldn't consider the peaceful resolution to be equivalent to the combat one in this case because they're resolving different things. If you just notice the situation then head back to town, you've satisfied the questgiver's curiosity. If you kill the guy, you've probably performed an additional good deed. I usually like to reward alternative resolutions similarly, but I don't think it makes sense here. As an aside, if you do go with negotiations, can't you earn extra xp by completing one of the two tasks for the mage? I don't have my book in front of me. I suppose you could do that then kill him for the most xp, but that's starting to go all murderhobo. 
For A Druid's Watch, I think they specifically left out the druid's stats because they want to keep him as a pacifist. Note that his description says something about him learning to avoid all the baddies in the ruined town. Also note that if the PCs attack, he transforms himslef into a squirrel and scampers off until they leave. I think the dude just doesn't do conflict. I agree with you that this is limiting. I'd rather have more options for the PCs.
I really like your ideas for both Venomfang and the Orc Camp. Those are nice (and simple) ways to bring some color to those encounters. I'd ask permission to steal the ideas for my own game, but unless you're with the NSA, I don't think you'll know if I do. You're not with the NSA, are you? 
If I recall correctly, the wolves only gain advantage on Perception checks if they're using scent or hearing, so it wouldn't help them spot a trip wire for instance. I guess I wouldn't add it to the passive Perception listed in the stat block directly, but I would make a note of it there. Phrasing it as "passive Perception 13 (18 if using scent or hearing)" probably works. I would definitely include it for determining success of stealth in any case.
Cheers!
Thanks for summing them up Ramzour. I will try poking one of the Devs about this.
Plaguescarred wrote:
Aldente wrote:
What stuck out to me was that none of the monsters have their saving throws pointed out? So do all monsters just save based on their stat bonus' or are they supposed to have proficient saves like the PC's?
VanRicter wrote:
About the Blights going to doors I read it several times and concluded that it probably means 2 go to one door while for three rounds 2/round go to the other door.
VanRicter wrote:
Thanks for pointing these out, Ramzour. I'll keep an eye out for them (and any others too) when I get my Starter Set and give the adventure a read-through.
By the way, there's a similar thread to yours over at EN World: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?357099-Lost-Mine-of-Phandelver-comments-and-complaints-after-read-through-(spoilers)&prefixid=dndnext
pukunui wrote:
Be3Al2 wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Add the following to the Goblin Ambush encounter.
Treasure. The goblins each carry 10 copper. One goblin has a parchment that contains a message written in Goblin:
“Mighty King Grol, please distribute copies of this letter to your scouts. A group of young adventurers is coming south
from Neverwinter with a supply wagon. Kill them and steal the wagon supplies for Cragmaw Castle.”
The letter continues with a brief description and drawing of each of the PCs. The letter is signed with no name, but the symbol of a black spider.
=========
This immediately kicks off the adventure with a mystery. Can any of the characters read Goblin? If not, then they might have to find someone in Phandalin that speaks Goblin (Daran Edermath would be perfect for this).
(OR)
Oh good, someone in the party speaks Goblin? Quick, what does it say? Who is the Black Spider? Who is King Grol? What and Where is Cragmaw Castle? Why do they need so many supplies? What have we stumbled into?!
Sounds good. But again, how would the BBEG have learned about the adventurers and why do they matter to him? Has he got spies in Neverwinter who were watching Gundren Rockseeker? Are they carrying something in the wagon that the BBEG doesn't want to have reach Phandalin? Or is it just an opportunistic thing ~ "The dwarf hired some people to cart a wagon full of supplies to Phandalin for him. Feel free to divulge them of the contents of the wagon, even if you have to kill them to get it."
I suppose another option would be to simply have the goblins acting as actual bandits. Maybe they've felled a tree and are standing guard, waiting for travelers to come along so they can "tax" them. Perhaps Gundren and Sildar refused to pay. There's a similar scenario early on in Dragon Age: Origins, where you come across some bandits on the highway who are looting some supplies. They try to get you to pay a toll for the maintenance of the highway or something (I forget exactly), and you can of course either pay or challenge them. You can kill them or, if you're particularly clever, intimidate them into giving you money.
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
pukunui wrote:
OK. Sounds like the goblins shouldn't have too much trouble overwhelming the two NPCs then. I can't see Sildar being taken hostage by a bunch of goblins that easily.
I think I may still include a few signs of a struggle should the PCs take the time to investigate the scene. Maybe some bloodstains and signs of something being dragged off the road in the direction of the goblin path. Maybe a dead goblin hastily shoved behind a bush. Maybe some of the goblins still at the scene have some of Sildar's and Gundren's belongings.
pukunui wrote:
That's disappointing about Gundren. He's the PCs' patron, after all. I can't believe they didn't flesh him out. Some of the decisions WotC makes with their published adventures really boggle my mind sometimes.
Ramzour wrote:
Perhaps we should ask WotC to consider a Starter Set web enhancement with some stats for Gundren and some roleplaying tips for both him and the dragon.
A web enhancement is a great idea. I'm still reading through the adventure so I'll withold my opinions for now. General sentiment seems to be that it's a good adventure...but I'm in agreement that for an adventure aimed at new players, NPC personalities and roleplaying tips are absolutely essential.
pukunui wrote:
Good idea!
Psikerlord wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
hunterian7 wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Dragon Idea 1:
Turn Venomfang into a very young or wyrmling dragon, reduce (or not) its treasure hoard (i.e. the young dragon stumbled upon it or collected it over a period of time).
Dragon Idea 2 (this only works if the PCs meet Venomfang before the cultists):
Venomfang has just woken up from a slumber and is very hungry. It threatens to eat the PCs, but says that it is willing to spare their lives if the PCs can successfully deceive the dragon cultists into an ambush, where the green dragon will eat the cultists. Why not just eat the PCs? Venomfang finds it very funny and ironic to think that these cultists who venerate dragons will be eaten by one. Should the PCs fail to do so, their next encounter with Venomfang will not be a friendly one.
@Ramzour: I really like the ritual idea. Thanks, I think I might use that.
This is going to be very helpful, thanks.
Many thanks to Ramzour for pointing these rough spots out and to everyone for their awesome idea contributions!! 
I have just finished putting all of this into a document and will be printing it out as a permanent 'notes addition' to my Starter Set. 
Revenant07 wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
In his livestream game, Greg Bilsland had everyone introduce their characters during the initial journey before they got to the ambush site. I wonder if it would be better to "play" the flashback at that point ~ so they've already accepted the mission, but you're immediately flashing back to the start to give them a sense of context. I like your idea - I'm just thinking that many players won't want to sit through an introductory flashback if they know there are goblins waiting to be fought.
pukunui wrote:
Revenant07 wrote:
Akeisha wrote:
Regin_Vargtass wrote:
Thanks, glad to help!
Going too much back and forth could be detrimental to the focus and tempo, though, so there is that to consider. Otherwise, I like the goblin bait idea - perfect plan for everyone but one; typical of goblins!
- Vargtass
Ramzour wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
Thanks for the tips. I'll probably print out this post when I run the adventure next week.
My Starter Set arrived in the mail today! Woohoo!
I'm going to read through the adventure and then I'll come back and post any (new) thoughts of my own here.
pukunui wrote:
My initial thoughts:
1) Black Spider: Now that I've actually read the intro for myself, I see that the BBEG has been following the Rockseekers' activities. I think it stands to reason that he might have sent someone to Neverwinter to watch them and would thus know that a group of well-armed people is heading towards Phandalin with a wagonload of supplies. I don't know that it makes sense for any of the ambushing goblins to have a note, but it would make sense for there to be a note from King Grol to Klarg somewhere in his lair indicating that the Black Spider wants these would-be adventurers eliminated before they can pose a threat (and that the Cragmaws are free to help themselves to the contents of the wagon as a reward).
2) Goblin Ambush: Given that the Cragmaws are set up as bandits preying on travelers on the Triboar Trail, I think it does make sense that they'd either ambush the PCs or set up a roadblock. What doesn't make sense is them leaving perfectly good horsemeat in the middle of the road for a whole day (nor does it make much sense that they'd only just be cutting it up as the PCs come along).
I think if I change anything about this encounter, it'll be the initial setup: instead of two whole horses lying dead in the middle of the road, there will be a fallen tree or some such thing blocking the way. Anyone who looks closely will see signs of a struggle in the road in front of the tree, including blood stains and signs of large things being dragged off the road in the direction of the hidden trail. Anyone who takes the time to look around in the bushes will also find the carcasses of two horses* buzzing with flies (the goblins decided it was too much bother trying to drag two whole horses back to the cave, so they just pulled them off the road into the bushes, cut them up for meat, and then left the rest to rot).
EDIT: Another option ~ for those worried about the fragility of 1st level PCs ~ might be to have the PCs be part of a larger caravan. When the goblins spring their initial ambush, they could target several of the NPCs instead. Having red shirts suffer the initial surprise attack serves to a) show the players what goblins can do and b) prevent any PCs from going down in the surprise round. I might actually do something like this myself ~ it makes sense that merchants and travelers would band together, given the context that the Cragmaws have been raiding the trail for a few months now.
At the very least, you could have an NPC driving the wagon, with the PCs along for the ride (or walking alongside it). The driver gets taken out by a goblin arrow, while more arrows thunk into the side of the wagon or sail harmlessly overhead. Just because the goblins can potentially take out one or more PCs in the opening surprise round doesn't mean they have to. "Surprise! You're under attack!" as opposed to "Surprise! You're bleeding to death!"
*Wouldn't Gundren have preferred a pony rather than a horse?
Just found another error getting through Cragmaw Castle.
Hobgoblin's statblock list their longbow as a melee or range attack. It should just be a ranged attack.
pukunui wrote:
I don't know if this bit is a "problem" per se, but the Goblin Trail snare and pit are examples of really pointless scenes. Best I can tell, it's a way to teach a new DM to learn marching order. Otherwise, these scenes offer basically nothing but some gotchas and miniscule damage with no real tension or drama.
Unless someone can clue me in to what the point of these things are, I'm going to rework them and make them into better situations. (I may do that anyway, heh.)
If the players are required to follow the railroad, then those traps don't do much.
iserith wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
iserith wrote:
Fellstrike wrote:
That's a problem that was spotted back when they previewed the hobgoblin statblock. I'm sure they will have fixed it for the MM, since they're still working on it.
Regarding the dragon: The folk hero PC knows the dragon is there (well, they've heard rumors that a dragon has moved into their old town at least). Other than that, though, there's no indication that there is a dragon in Thundertree until the PCs arrive and either talk to the druid or stumble upon the dragon. I know the text says that the dragon is lying low in the tower, but I'm thinking I might have him fly overheard while the PCs are traveling towards the ruins. He'll be high up and I'll just describe his shadow passing over them and giving them butterflies in their stomach. Just a little clue to remind them that there really is a dragon up ahead.
iserith wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Noon wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Oh I'm glad that bothered you too! I must admit, I initially thought that the Redbrands were a larger outfit and that the rogue had been a member of a different chapter. I didn't realize they were unique to Phandalin.
Also, it seems to me like there should be some kind of turf war going on between the Redbrands and the Cragmaws. Even though the drow now has them both working for him, I can't believe the two groups would tolerate each other much. I'm thinking Bloods vs Crips type stuff. Why would the Redbrands let a bunch of goblins muscle in on their territory (and vice versa ~ it's not entirely clear who was there first).
Regarding the back stories themselves, my one issue is with the connection to the quest-giving NPCs. Why would people in Neverwinter know the names (and goals) of relative nobodies in a small frontier town? If someone as far away as Neverwinter knows that Halia wants to get rid of the Redbrands, surely they'd know that too and would do something about it (unless they somehow know she's a Zhentarim and believe that harming her would bring trouble). Why would the cleric PC know to seek out Daran Edermath?
One other thing before I forget again: Why must WotC persist in using boring castles with no real defensive capabilities? Where are the cliffs? The moats? The embankments? The winding paths? The gatehouses with murder holes?
Cragmaw Castle is so bland!
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Yeah, I get that. It's just annoying that it's yet another thick-walled building surrounded by open space. Cragmaw doesn't look like it would have been particularly defensible even in its heyday.
I'm not saying the castle should be more heavily defended or harder to get into; just that it could use some more external features. It could have been built on a hilltop, or at the edge of a cliff. It could have had a reed-choked moat.
As it stands, it's more like a glorified manor house than a castle (or maybe a keep without the rest of the castle).
In fact, they could have included a drainage grill or some secret emergency exit accessible via the moat that would've made it easier for the PCs to sneak into the castle undetected. I might have to add something like that myself.
pukunui wrote:
Perhaps. But my complaint is that it is yet another bland, indefensible castle. WotC seems to love them.
EDIT: The hunting lodge and elven castle in Scourge of the Sword Coast are the only two exceptions that spring to mind.
Ramzour wrote:
I've been struggling with the connection between the rogue and the Redbrands as well. As you folks have pointed out, there are a few issues that seem to be difficult to reconcile. Here are a few of my general interpretations.
The Black Spider (Nezznar) is using the Redbrands to keep the Phandalians preoccupied so that they stay away from the mine, and the Redbrands have been controlling Phandalin for two months. I interpret those two facts as allowing for the Redbrands to have existed in the town for a longer period of time but for Nezznar to have influenced them to become more active recently.
My take is that when the rogue was a member, the gang was all about burglary and pick pocketing. Nezznar needed the gang to be a more visible threat to the townsfolk, so he used his doppleganger compatriot to infiltrate the gang, ostracise members who were likely to object to becoming more violent (e.g., the PC rogue), and set Glasstaff on the new path. The doppelganger is the one who betrayed the rogue.
A fair number of the original Redbrands have been removed from the gang through the doppleganger's machinations and been replaced by more thuggish folks, so only a few of those who remain (including Glasstaff of course) will recognize the rogue. This allows for some tension as the rogue's player won't know which Redbrands might be able to divulge the secret. The townspeople know the rogue but are unaware of the connection with the Redbrands because the rogue never functioned as an enforcer.
The hideout under the manor is a relatively new thing for the Redbrands, part of Glasstaff getting obsessed with the new nature of his gang. He's seeing himself as something of a bandit king. The rogue was never in the hideout so doesn't have any special knowledge of the layout or such.
The rogue is very familiar with the town and many of the inhabitants, but Phandalin has grown quite a bit (relatively), so some NPCs may have come after the rogue fled. Given that the rogue left before the Redbrands fully transitioned into their thuggish incarnation, at least two months have passed and perhaps several more than that.
Oh -- I'm also adding in some racial diversity on the Redbrands just for flavor.
Here's another attempt at explaining the ash zombies: in Area 7, dragon's tower, it is briefly mentioned that the tower formerly belonged to a wizard who died fighting the ash zombies. Change that wizard to a necromancer who lost control of his magic and was killed by his own creations. If the PCs ever ask Reidoth why zombies are here he can rely that information.
Revenant07 wrote:
Aldente wrote:
Further thoughts:
~ The magical statuette hidden in the coal in the brazier in the dark hall in Cragmaw Castle is going to be easily missed. I'm thinking if the PCs have a light source when they enter the room, I'll give them a chance to see a glimmer of something metallic shining out from amidst the coal.
~ Goblin Shrine: "A stone altar stands ... covered with bloodstained black cloth." If the cloth is black, how would you be able to tell it's bloodstained? 
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Prom wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Good catch, Yan!
Forge of Spells: I have to admit I find the Forge of Spells somewhat underwhelming. I was picturing something more along the lines of the Anvil of the Void from Dragon Age: Origins.
pukunui wrote:
I was talking more about the look of the thing. It's just a little brazier in a small manmade room. It should be grander than that.
I kind of like the irony that the Forge of Spells (which I am renaming by the way, terrible title), the cause of all this trouble, turns out to be so small and unassuming. Even small things can hold great power!
Thanks very much to Pukunui, Aldente and Ramzour for discussing the Halfling Rogue's Redbrand connections. This was this biggest hole for me (see the Halfing Rogue's Secret thread) and I like what you came up with. I will likely go a similar way with it
My impression of the Ash Zombies is that they, along with the Twig Blights, were created by the cursed ash of the Hotenow eruption itself. It wasn't just an natura event (according to the FR wiki it was triggered by a primordial). It's like a fantasy equivelent of a radioactive nuclear-winter mutant zombie holocaust!
Regarding the Spectator, although it can only speak Deep Speech and Undercommon aloud, don't mis it's telepathy ability (easily done as it is at the top od the next column); this allows it to communicate with any creature that can understand any language.
I'm not bothered by the minor erata, but I'm enjoying the deeper discussions in this thread. Keep it up!
(oh, and my stance on perception/investigation: your perception is your eyes and ears and other senses, investigation is your brain. So with perception you might notice the outline of a secret door, but if it is opened by a secret switch or trigger you might need to investigate to figure out what that is - eg the old fake candlestick lever. If the secret door is so well hiden as to be effecitvely invisible, the only way you will find it is by investigation of clues - a mechanical contraption built into the wall that doesn't seem to do anything, odd scuff marks on the floor etc. Perception is what and where, investigation is how and why)
5Shilling wrote:
MonsterEnvy wrote:
Re-reading the adventure (first actual play session has been delayed by weeks due to being grown-ups with jobs and other boring stuff 
). Another thing is niggling me a little.
Does anyone think that the Cragmaw Hideout is too small? The scale says 1 square = 5 feet, but that means in most of the areas there is barely room for everyone to fit in. Area 6 has 6 goblins, potentially 5 PCs and an NPC, and the room is split in 2. There will be queues forming! Areas 2 and 3 are even worse.
On the other hand, maybe it is meant to be tight and cramped.
I might just assume that 1 square = 10 feet. What do you think?
5Shilling wrote:
5Shilling wrote:
5Shilling wrote:
I had a chance to run the adventure yesterday. So regarding the error on page 8, the kennel for the wolves. I presented a description of only two wolves stacked and chained up. Once the PC's started throwing food and meat into the cave for the wolves, I revealed a third wolf that was behind a rock. This worked fine.
Ramzour wrote:
Looks like no dice on the web enhancement idea. I tweeted Mike about it earlier and Greg replied that it sounded like something for a "dedicated fan" to do.
pukunui wrote:
An interesting thread. Helps with DM prep.
One small thing that I noticed: the map on page 5 shows the goblin lair in the middle of "plains" hex. The dead horses on the Triboar trail are on a pinch point in the trail though: surrounded by thickets with steep embankments on either side. Sounds rather hilly and forested. Not to mention that the goblins are in a cave complex. Seems rather like hills, not plains.
Like I said, small detail.
Also,on page 6, it says that the players can leave the oxen tied off on the side of the road. They then trek 5 miles away, beat on goblins and trek 5 miles back. Factor in resting. We are talking, what? a day's elapsed time with the poor oxen tied off? 100 g.p. worth of supplies hanging in the wilderness. Definitely an argument for the players to go to Phandalin first before heading to the Cragmaw caves.
Another issue. Thundertree is no joke. A dragon. Totally cool and all. But I don't see Phandalin being the base camp for the Thundertree portion of the assualt. More likely the players will base out of Neverwinter for that endeavor. Especially if they are challenged. Is there any information online about Neverwinter as a city?
Also, the scale of Thundertree feels too small. Especially with a dragon esconced in a tower on a hill. Seems to me that a party that is smashing and crashing its way through buildings that are, for the most part, 50 feet away, is bound to draw the attention of the dragon in the tower. I'd almost want to make each square fifty feet on an edge.
basilbur wrote:
basilbur wrote:
basilbur wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Lumenbeing wrote:
Its "weird insight" ability is something of a psychic interface with another creature, so I was having it communicate with the characters as it stole secrets. The players would tell me a secret, recounting the tale of what happened in their life, and I would describe a dark shape in the corner of their eye in the scene with them that wasn't there when the event happened in their life. It would talk to them while watching the character recall the secret.
PinkRose wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
OK, am I the only one who can't seem to find it? The module states that Iarno (Glasstaff) "wields a staff of defense (see Appendix A)". There is no Appendix A, and if you look at the DM's Basic Rules that come along with the module (which are really nothing more than a Monster Manual and a short Magic Item list) there is no Staff of Defense listed. Am I missing it?
zeim wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
TheGimper wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
My issue is tha that the pre-gened rouge is a former Redbrand, so shouldn't that mean he knows everything about the Glasstaff and the layout of the Redbrand hideout under Tresendar Manor?
Nilonym wrote:
iserith wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Aldente wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
I'm not thrilled with the way the doppelgangers are used, but I'm not sure what to do with them. They really serve no purpose in the story at all, other than the authors apparently thought it would be cool. The problem is, they don't do anything. The first one, in Cragmaw castle basically just attempts to escape, and in so doing, is never revealed for what he is. After he escapes from the boss fight in Cragmaw castle, we are never told what happens to him. At first, I thought he reappears in Wave Echo Cave, but the doppelganger there has a different name. It seems to me that having the one in Cragmaw castle disguise himself as one of the PCs, or as Gundren would have been the thing to spotlight how cool they are. But the encounter setup doesn't really lend itself to that.
And in both cases, their presence isn't explained. Why are they working for the Black Spider? Why does he feel the need to use them? Why do they disquise themselves as drow?
I'd love to hear how others used them. Did you change anything about them?
TheGimper wrote:
I removed the doppelgangers. I have replaced the drow with necromancers from the "Far East". I've changed the climax a fair bit building up Glasstaff and setting it up with Marrus' friendship to him (the players don't know that Marrus' friend is Glasstaff yet). So my big villain for LMoP will actually be Glasstaff (using Nezzaner's stats) with future adventures potentially being to chase down the necromancers and stop their plot in invading the land with their legions of undead (if the players consider that to be a serious threat). So in place of the doppelgangers are low level necromancers.
Doppelgangers in my world have their own kingdom (mentioned in a very few obscure texts as the Hidden Kingdom) that exists in secret amongst all the civilised races. I could have used their presence in the adventure to introduce that element of the world but felt it didn't further the plot and would have either been a distraction or even a red herring.
TheGimper wrote:
On a side note, I treated the Black Spider as a 3rd party. An independent contractor, if you will. I said he was hired by Frulam Mondath (NPC villain from HotDQ) in order to better connect the two adventures. In fact, during the Black Spider encounter in WEC, the party didn't actually kill him. They parleyed instead. The Black Spider revealed that he was working for the Cult of Dragon, but just for coin. They gave him a choice: leave now and stop helping the cult....or die now. The Black Spider opted to leave.
As a token of his honesty, the Black Spider even told them the location of Glasstaff because the PCs had been unable to find him. During the Redbrand Hideout Dungeon, Glasstaff heard the PCs coming and fled. He ended up at Old Owl Well and was working with that other mage, who I made a Cult of Dragon necromancer (again tying the adventures together).
The result of all of this was a multi-faction NPC array.
- Cragmaw Tribe with King Groll and Klarg and the other Bugbears.
- Glasstaff. Leading the Redbrands, but also working with the Cult of Dragon on the side.
- Black Spider, working with Cult of Dragon afte being hired by Frulam Mondath
- Two doppelgangers, working directly with the Black Spider as his agents in the field.
- Frulam Mondath, another NPC villain on the horizon, leading them south to Greenest
- The Many-Arrows Orc Tribe, representing another threat to the region
- Venomfang, a green dragon trying to be recruited by the Cult of Dragon
- Reidoth the Druid, a helpful NPC Druid. He knows Venomfang and Agatha the Banshee
- Agatha the Banshee, Ghost of Neverwinter Wood. She is mostly neutral and has a lot of information.
- Rockseeker Brothers, leading the mining efforts in WEC
- Sildar Hallwinter, paladin, Lord's Alliance, working with Rockseeker brothers but with loyalties back in Neverwinter and Waterdeep.
- Mormesk the Wraith, an old wizard turned wraith. Working against The Spectator
- The Spectator, a monster hired to guard the Forge of Spells
- The Flameskull, a guardian monster created by Mormesk before his death to protect the forge, but has since gone rogue
- Plus all the NPCs in Phandalin
Whew! What a list! As you can see, there are lots of plots going on. Sometimes they intertwine, sometimes the conflict. That's the beauty of LMoP.
In my LMoP campaign, the PCs fought the ambushing goblins and then went and rescued Sildar from the cave. They took him back to Phandalin, where they took stock of the situation in town and chose to deal with the Redbrands. Even though they've picked up on all the sidequests on offer, they then decided to go straight for Cragmaw Castle to rescue Gundren, as that seemed to be the most urgent quest in the players' minds. They didn't know its precise location, so they got lost in the woods for a few hours but did eventually manage to find it.
In reviewing the section on Cragmaw Castle for tonight's session, I notice that it says that if they succeed in rescuing Gundren, he asks them to "escort him back to Phandalin and then venture to Wave Echo Cave to learn the fate of his brothers ..." My concern here is that the players will end up skipping all those sidequests because they just don't seem all that important compared to the "main quest" and will thus be too low level to face the threats in the mine.
I personally feel this way when playing CRPGs like Dragon Age: Origins. Why would my character want to chase after some lost pigs in a dwarf city when my homeland is being overrun by foul creatures and I'm supposed to be helping the dwarves elect a new leader so they'll agree to help stop the foul creatures? From a metagame standpoint, I get that the incentive to go on sidequests is earning XP, but from a story standpoint, when you've got this seemingly urgent main quest, most sidequests come off as being unimportant things that will only delay you from achieving your more time-sensitive goals.
Now I get that in LMoP's case, some of the sidequests can actually result in the PCs learning the exact location to Cragmaw Castle; however, there are multiple ways to learn its whereabouts, including from the little goblin in the Redbrand hideout, so choosing to do one of the sidequests in order to learn the location of the castle isn't strictly necessary, as my group has demonstrated.
Maybe I'm overthinking it ... I mean, it's nice that the adventure contains all these sidequests, as it helps flesh the location out more, but I just can't help but feel like they end up being extraneous when compared to the main storyline.
Here's my problem/question: Just why does Mormesk the Wraith want to get rid of the Spectator? What is his problem with it being there?
I'm thinking of saying the Spectator was (in his perception) rude to him on the morning of his last day of life, and he's been brooding on it beyond the grave until it's become a fixation. But I'd be interested in hearing other people's solutions as well.
Tonight we got to the part where the pregen wizard could achieve her goal of cleansing the old chapel in Cragmaw Castle. The module doesn't say how to go about doing that, so I ruled it was just like casting a spell as a ritual - that is, it would take 10 minutes of prayer at the altar. My wife, who is playing the wizard, had her character use prestidigitation to clean some of the objects in the room before kneeling before the altar. The others withdrew beyond the curtains to give her some privacy, taking the goblin acolyte who'd surrendered with them.
I declared that after the ten minutes was up, a sort of wave of good vibes washed through the chapel, after which everything seemed cleaner and brighter. Since some of the PCs were a bit bruised, I gave anyone who needed it a free cure wounds effect as well. [In retrospect, giving everyone Inspiration might have worked just as well.]
I also thought I should give her some extra XP for completing her character's personal mission. Does 100 XP sound reasonable for that? Too much? Not enough?
100 XP seems reasonable to me.
To get around Gundren sending the players directly to the mine I had him take a couple of days to recuperate before sending them on. This won't work if you run the world as PC rules = NPC rules. I do for the most part except in this instance where I ruled Gundren's time in captivity required a longer rest then normal.
I've also had the added benefit that most things were on the way to the mine (I ported the region over to my homebrew world) and most of the tasks (except for Cragmaw Fort) were on the way to the mine.
JohnLynch wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
kaitoujuliet wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
JohnLynch wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Ramzour wrote:
Last night, my players decided to go to Thundertree. I foreshadowed the dragon's presence by describing it flying overhead as they approached the ruins, causing butterflies in the PCs' stomachs. I know we've discussed the issues around low-level PCs facing off against this dragon before, and I think I've come up with a solution thanks to the MM! My wife is playing the book nerd wizard, and so she's always asking what she knows about various things. She rolled really high on her knowledge check about green dragons, so I read out a good chunk of the green dragon entry in the MM, which includes this little gem:
"It never slays all its foes, preferring to use intimidation to establish control over survivors .... Green dragons occasionally release prisoners if they can be ransomed. Otherwise, a creature must prove its value to the dragon daily or die."
Later, it says that a green dragon favors as treasure sentient creatures it can bend to its will.
So if any DMs are having trouble with foolhardy PCs taking on the dragon and losing, there's no need for a TPK. Venomfang can just take them prisoner, and then you can allow them an opportunity (or two) to escape before the dragon kills them. You could even have Venomfang attempt to ransom the pregen noble fighter.
Thanks, Puk! Would love to get more updates on how this campaign is going!
It's going pretty well! I'll post an update later today.
Ramzour wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Page 49, Room 19 (Temple of Dumathoin)
Second text box mentions: "Two bugbears stand by the table, flanking a dark elf..."
However the monsters in the room are: Drow + 4 spiders
Where did the bugbears come from?
Hi everyone!
Im sorry that this contains spoilers but you can stop reading now!!! 
Then you will not read them!
I am currently dming the LMOP and so far it has gone pretty well. The four of us playing have never played D&D before so it has been an experiment from start to finish and such a good one that we will be moving on to HotDQ once we have finished. The group have just got back to Phandalin after rescuing Gundren. Snarl almost ripped out Gundren's throat but the quick thinking of the groups Wizard meant he got to fight another day.
Now however, I have a problem as mentioned here of how do I play Gundren! I have made such a big fuss how family is everything to them, that there is no way they will leave Gundren in Phandalin and they know he will not leave hand over his map (now half burnt, again due to the Wizard). I am trying to come up with a stat block for him, weapons etc but am struggling and wondered what others did? Give him Sildar's stats or create a character, maybe a dwarven fighter?
Once into the cave, im going to take a few ideas from here i think. First, i thought I would have him stay in area one after what he finds there, but I really like the idea of the group trying to protect him throughout the cave. It also allows me to bring in the drow that has been following them throughout trying to convince Gundren to follow them. How else you bring the drow into play? Id played on someone following them throughout, seeing shadows, strange feelings during night watches of someone following them and a failed assasination attempt. Im thinking the first as Nundro to try and lead Gundren off, the second as a false blackspider or even as a fake Iarno out to exact revenge after escaping his prison escort to Neverwinter.
Any tips on either point would be fantastic!
Zoglug wrote:
It's easy to miss, but the adventure even states that Gundren is a commoner, with the word in bold (meaning you're supposed to use the commoner statblock for him).
It also says at the start of Phandalin chapter that all NPCs should be treated as commoners if you need to:
"The characters have no reason to fight ordinary townsfolk.
Hence, no game statistics are provided for them. If
statistics become necessary, use the commoner stat block
to represent an adult NPC of any race."
Edit: Which is weird because dwarves don't get darkvision, gnomes aren't small, etc, etc
Over a year after it came out, is anyone still playing the starter set, other than my group? Who knows.
My contribution is some NPC info for Gundren from my campaign that I think dovetails with the adventure as provided:
Gundren Rockseeker. A dwarf commoner, 120 years old, rugged and active. Thinks highly of his abilities as a miner and surveyor, isn’t wrong about them. His family is without a stable clan or home ever since Phandelver was destroyed 500 years ago.
- Trait: Proud, jovial, an entrepreneur.
- Ideal: "Don’t leave money on the table, and make the best of any situation."
- Bond: Cares deeply about family, both his family name and his living brothers.
- Flaw: Cannot pass up an opportunity to gain riches or grow his business operation. Sticky-fingered.
His traits make him a good foil to the serious, noble minded Sildar. His ideal helps him see opportunity for a business partnership with the party, just like he did with Sildar. Depending on how other Phandalin NPCs play out in your story, Gundren may have side-hustles worked out with Barthen, Halia, even Harbin Wester. Gundren wheels and deals. His bond gives him motivation for finding his brothers and making sure they're okay, and can provide some drama when he finds Tharden is dead. This also helps cement his relationship with his cousin, the dwarf pre-gen, and lets you have Gundren be protective or preferential to his kin over the rest of the party. His flaw explains why he didn't get out of the lost mine when things got out of control, and why even with dark forces involved he can't walk away. His desire to keep the mine secret and involve so few people made it easy for Nezznar to take it from him, and results in the death of at least one of his brothers. On a lighter note, Gundren's flaw may give him an interest in side quests (and the possiblity of treasure), giving you an NPC who can urge the party in different directions. I have used Gundren to flat out steal and pocket treasures from locations the party wasn't investigating.
I hope this is of use to somebody!
I'm currently running this for a group that was previously using a modified version of AD&D, using the five pre-gen characters plus a monk. We started on New Years Day, meet about twice a month for a few hours. They're currently in Thundertree and will be heading to Wave Echo Cave next.
The rogue's backstory: I figured the rogue's goal of hiding her past from her aunt has to be achievable, so I decided that she was working in the hills around the town, locating and pilfering from prospectors. She joined the Redbrands figuring the added manpower would let her ambush the prospectors, but didn't tell them about her relationship with Qelline. Glasstaff found out and figured she wouldn't go along with his plans to take over the town, so he ordered her killed. Nezznar encouraged him, fearing the rogue had stumbled on the Rockseekers' mine while skulking around the hills.
Party intros: Gundren hired everyone, put his cousin in charge and rode off with Sildar. Happily, the cleric's player put on her manager's hat and started interviewing the other characters about their ability to defend the wagon.
After the ambush, for some reason a couple of the party members were convinced that Sildar and Gundren had been kidnapped for ransom, so they continued to Phandalin in the expectation of finding a ransom demand.
Banshee: The noble did an excellent job of role-playing the flattery and rolled really well for Persuasion, so I let them have two questions. And then it took them forever to realize that the second question didn't have to be about Bowgentle's book, and they could get the location of Cragmaw Castle from the banshee.
Doppelganger: The party was split up with half of them dealing with the boss and the other half holding the rear. (They came in through the hole in the wall,so they found the boss right away.) The doppelganger hid in the bathroom waiting to attack someone from behind but didn't have a good target, and then the boss was clearly losing, so the doppelganger figured it would just wait, steal the map and sneak away. The others went to help with the rearguard, leaving Gundren and the wizard in the boss room. Gundren retrieved his map from its hiding place. The doppelganger assumed Gundren's form and emerged, planning to sow confusion. The wizard cleverly used prestidigitation to mark the new arrival. The doppelganger attacked him, Gundren ran out of the castle with the map, the doppelganger chased him, the wizard chased the doppelganger...
Meanwhile, the rest of the party was fighting with the goblins/hobgoblins for several rounds and had no idea what was happening elsewhere. The wizard tried to fight it out with the doppelganger and got dropped, Gundren circled back toward the castle. The party emerged to see two dwarves running through the woods, one glowing. Unfortunately for the doppelganger, it didn't speak dwarvish, which made it easy to figure out the real Gundren, so the folk hero finished the doppelganger with a couple of arrows. Luckly, the wizard stabilized (using advantage from inspiration on his last roll) and after everyone else rolled perception checks, he was eventually spotted and retrieved.
donosaur wrote:
donosaur wrote:
Scruffy68 wrote:
ChelseaNH wrote:
OotA's opening hook is that the PCs are prisoners of the drow, yes. How this happened is up to the players to determine.
Nice usage of the doppelganger! Every instance I've thought to use them to cause confusion in combat, I've gotten hung up by the fact that their clothes and gear don't change.
Donosaur casts raise thread!
donosaur wrote:
I still have not gotten a chance to play it. I hope to some day. Our group skipped it - homebrew campaign that started with the beta test. And I did start into the Adventurers League but by then it was well past this adventure. I understand you can still play it for AL though.
Mistwell wrote:
Aldente wrote:
Aldente wrote: