So there are a few things that will be needed for psionic characters. They need to be as good as regular classes, should fit inside the various settings; mainly that their power system works with the other classes. Looking through some old books, there are two classes that seem to be the most Iconic to me.
So lets look at the first, the Psion. This guy is your mind wizard/sorcerer. If by either strict years of dedication and learning, or an innate power; by pushing your will upon the world, you create physical effects. But here comes the problem now, a powers list. Should we just give them most of the Wizard List, plus a few unqiue ones to make them feel like a Psion, but how much should we make them truely different? Should they have a regular spells per level table like druids, wizards, bards and sorcerers? Thoughts and ideas? Do you want a completely new spell list? or is it okay to use spells that fit thematically? How bout damage dealing? Should they be able to blast as well as the wizard?
The second is the Phsyic Warrior/Knight. Armored, but usually in heavy. He often has a partial list from the Psion, taking the abilites that will buff him in combat. My first jump is the paladin. A Physical warrior with supernatural talents that make his martial skills even more deadly. So what kind of skills should a psyhcic "paladin" have?
Are there any other psyhcic classes that you think should be brought up into 5th edition?
Should some of them be subclasses of the two i have already described?
Ok iam finishing up on the psionic class. What I did is borrow heavily from the sorceress (this is for my dark sun campaign), so the sorceress does not exists as a player class. In dark sun there are psionic schools in every major city state. I personally did not have a problem with the power list. I own every dragon article and most systems that deal with psionics. I wanted the psionicists powers to be completely different from spells, so yes some of the powers overlap but hopefully not many. I think they should be able to blast as well as the wizard. Ill post it for you guys to PEACH ass soon as I finish it, writing the powers is what’s taking so long.
The fraal (classic little gray men from Star*Drive) and blue (goblin subrace) ought to be PC races. Fraals were a canon AD&D creature.
There is a great potential for psionic ardents, because they my be source of inspiration to create stories about hate-love relation with clerics and the rest of divine spellcasters.
The wilder is an interesting archetype. I imagine them like the D&D version of X-Men, like the psionic sorcerer, but she needs a remake, with a fun gameplay. The wild surge+psychic enervation is a boring class feature for players who don´t want to "bet" psionic power points. Why not a wilder subclass with monster points to "buy" mutations like ones from d20 Future?
The fist of Zuoken, the psionic monk subclass has to come back.
I hate the name "battlemind" for psychic warrior.
I'd like two major things first off I'd prefer psionic characters to be short on different powers, but big on modding the few powers they have, for example the pathfinder guys are working on classes for a book next year and released them in a play test for free, one of these was a kineticist which I think is pretty good way to go about it, or at least as good as you can do in the 3e framework without powerpoints. So using that as a starting point for what kind of abilities a kineticist should have seems like a good idea.
Psionic classes should include a kineticist (blasty class), a telepathic class, and a bio-feedback class (this is the guy with the shapeshifting iron skin beast claws and healing), with subclasses and variants within those. There should be no overarching hyper versatile psionic class.
The other thing is an intelligently implemented soulknife, this doesn't need to be a class really, it works fine as a sub class possibly of a non-psionic class even, but it needs to have a primary power that takes advantage of the nature of the mind blade, the mindblade itself is nothing more than a weapon so trying to pass it off as a primary class feature in and of itself leads to trouble.
EDIT: Also there needs to be a time-space warping class for teleporty and dimensional type powers.
LuisCarlos17f wrote:
rampant wrote:
So would yall want to see that as well witht he Psychic warrior work in the same manner? a small amount of optional powers, that they agument. I would assume they would follow the same pattern as Paladin and Rangers, getting one extra attack then most of their other damage options coming from their powers.
Would yall want to see Psions that can also do elemantal damage, pyrokenetic, and any other elemantal powers.
Well, hopefully I'm not alone in this, but I really hope that Battleminds/Psychic Warriors absolutely do NOT follow the Paladin/Ranger mold. An extra attack and a few gimmicks really do not make up for the loss of scope in power gained with the equivalent of the four highest spell levels. I'd sooner have them as a subclass of Psions than see that.
I'm probably very much alone in this, but I would like Psionics to use the Vancian system as opposed to a new power system. I've had issues trying to get people to accept Psionics due to the common perception that can be best summed up as, "Another spellcasting system to learn? I just got the hang of vancian system and all its spells and rules. I'm not going through that again just so I can play crystal psychic science fiction stuff that doesn't belong in a fantasy game anyway."
I'd rather that you don't try to break the classes up by armor/weapon prof.
I'd rather you break them up by power types.
A kineticest is one class and you choose between 1-3 kinetic powers to have (4 is just asking for problems IMO), photo kinesis, telekenisis, pyro, cryo, electro, etc.
The telepath is another class and each telepath has to choose how much focus it spends on tactical telepathy vs. influencing/dominating vs. mind reading.
The bio-feedback specialist is another class and it has a lot of options including acidic sweat, fire breathing (specifically limited to expelling the fire via manipulation of the body, this is not pyrokinesis), healing (self and others), partial and possibly full shapechanges (enhancement only, like aspect druids from 3e or pathfinder style tshape shifting spells, none of this using the monster maunual as a player resource non-sense), controlling the adrenaline in your body, all sorts of funs stuff really.
FInally there should be a nomad clas, this is the one with the space-time warping abilities, teleports, temporal acceleration, latching onto other dimensions to alter which way gravity pulls on you, folding space, etc.
A clairevoiyant class might be fun but it might also fall under the nomad's baliwack.
Basically there should not be a "psychic warrior" several of these classes (or possibly some of their sub-classes), should have plenty of martial aspects and applicatiosn of their powers such that a dedicated psychic fighter class is un-needed. Although a few subclasses designed around splashing some psionic abilities into other classes might be fun.
EDIT: Please no vancian psionics, Vancian was a bad idea to start with. Bad enough it gets grandfathered in on the arcane and divine classes.
At-will telepathy and empathy.
Maybe it's just me being nit-picky, but a psychic that doesn't focus almost explicitly on the "kinetic" aspects just doesn't feel like a psychic to me if she can't telepathically speak into other people's heads and read the emotions and surface thoughts of others without having to spend resources. If it were up to me, empathy and mind reading would just be skill checks/contests.
Telekinesis
Again, maybe I'm just being nit-picky, but telekinetics should be able to use a mental stat instead of their Strength score for various Str checks. They should also generally be able to telekinetically manipulate things at a distance without spending a resource. If it were up to me, a Telekinetic could replace their Strength score with a mental stat, and their telekinetic lifting ability would determined as normal lifting ability, only based on the mental stat instea of Strength.
rampant wrote:
I like the idea of an open list of powers, and letting the player choose the powers they want. They can choose powers that are all similar (to design a PC that falls into one of the archetypes suggested in this thread; or, they can choose to be a non-focused, jack-of-all-trades type of psionic.
I want a very diversified list of powers, grouped into catagories that would line up with these archetypes. The list can be reduced by making similar powers (of different power levels) into one power that has greater effects when more power points are spent; but, that is the only limiting factor I would want to see on the number of powers.
I want psionicists to be primarily utility-based, with fewer combat/damage specific options/powers than more martial classes.
My favorite version was from the AD&D 2nd Edition Complete Psionics Handbook.
I'd like a similar approach that 4e had (a shorter list of powers than wizards but, all, or almost all, highly augmentable with points). I liked mellored's examples above. Gaining new ways to augement existing powers is great, as is just gaining new powers as you level up. PC choice.
I'd want optional rules introduced, however. Rules for using the PHB spell list, and just altering fluff, and altering what classes can now have on their spell lists when psionic PC's are added to the fold. I'd also want to see an optional rule for doing it like 1e/2e where any existing PC can have some psionic powers added on top of them. (either added outright, or replacing class powers/features.) psychic duels should make a comeback as an optional rule too; but be simplified from their 1e/2e incarnation.
Flavor is key. So is making a book that has a lot to add to the game, for the people who want to add it. It's also important to me that it's not a setting-specific book...While Dark Sun needs psionics to work the way most DS fans want it to, any setting can have psionics.
Psionic items, races, monsters, etc. need to be included as well. A really good psionic handbook will also include bits on adding psionics to monsters in the MM, adding psionic environments, challenges... It won't just be a PHB expansion/Player's Option-type book. I want a catch all Psionic Handbook for 5e that's as in depth, long (page count >200), well illustrated, and well written as the current 3 core rule books. It should be a quality supplement, for PCs and DMs in equal measure.
I would like to see psionic classes that can replace all the other class 'types'. There should be psionic blasters (AoE guys), controllers (lots of dominate, pre-cognition, etc.), healers, melee/ranged single target fighters, etc. In theory, you should be able to build an all psi-party and they'd be just as effective as a well balanced party made from the existing PHB.
Lastly, I don't mind psionics being 'complicated'. Anyone who will want, or allow, this in their games probably wants them to be different from regular, familiar, magic.
What I don't want is a half-assed, rushed system, weak psionics (compared to existing classes) or an extremely convoluted manditory system (2e) to handle it. I also don't want it to be tacked into a PHB 2 with other new PC options, or tacked into a campaign setting book.
Does the addition of psionics have to cause a whole slew of new classes? Couldn't you have psionics be something that could be added to or melded with existing classes? I wonder if there isn't a way to add psyonics without adding six or eight new classes. What do you think?
@ dafrca, Well psionic subclasses could easily be made for non-psi classes, sort of like the arcane trickster for the rogue. IN fact the soulknife is almost certainly best off as a sub-class. Whenever wizards tries to expand it into a full class they tend to have some serious issues.
However developing subclasses that allow access to any of the major psionic disciplines for every class seems like more work and effort than making a couple of dedicated psionic classes. TO say noting of psionic sub-specialties like mind-blades.
If the sub-class system was standardized between classes you could just whip up the required psionic disciplines that way but with each class treating sub-classes differently it requires a lot of work to do it that way.
@ seti, the concept of a psychic duel suffers from a tragic flaw, the same flaw the shadowrun games are reported to have concenring their computer divers or deckers, it's a cool idea that only works for a small number of the PCs and can be very annoying for the rest of the party to sit through. Furthermore it's really only appropriate to the telepathic class and there only should be one telepathic class. Each of the major psionic types is a powerful and versatile force meaning that trying to jam them all into the same class will just end up with another crystal carrying wizard knock off.
@ lawrenceahoy, letitng psionic classes cherry pick which power types to pick up is a bad idea. With an emphasis on modifying powers over knowing dozens of powers the support of secondary class features increases a lot meaninig that it becomes more important for each psionic class to be specialized toward's its powerset. Also while utility would definetly be a focus of some disciplines, it's very hard to imagine a kineticist that doens't have the ability to deal terrible terrible damage to stuff.
@ MAceochaid, there shouldn't be a psion class, it's too general, it ends up looking like a bloody wannabe wizard. The kineticist and the telepath should be different classes.
rampant wrote:
So if they fail a single save against you, or possibly using anmove/ability that makes them fail a save agaisnt something, they then auto fail against future attacks? that seems like a problem. Also this should probably be labled telepathic combat.
rampant wrote:
And what exactly is a round of warning worth? Especially for monsters. Save or die are too damned swingy. What you could do is allow for multiple levels of telepathic contact and as the level of contact increaes the enemy is ground down but 3 is really the minimum for 'death' effects, especially if there ar eno HP caps involved, there also needs to be a way to reduce contact with a hostile telepath. I could see the telepathic class making use of contact as a meium for their powers though, for example they can have int mod contacts at once and can assign one as a bonus action that lasts until dismissed, the psion or the target loose consciousness, etc., and the telepath doesn't need line of sight to use thier powers on cntacted creatures, and have extended range when using powers with contacts, and since they should have some beneficial abilities they can use contacts as a buffs for party members.
seti wrote:
So in order to avoid the mistakes of past editions, do everything exactly like previous editions?
The idea behind having 5-6 psionic classes is not to create a psionic sorceror, and a psionic rogue, and so on, it's to allow each of the major disciplines it's own unique class instead of jamming all 6 into a single class calling it a psion and it being basically a psionic wizard, then jamming 3-4 disciplines into one class and calling it a psychic warrior. And then watching as the disparate disciplines force them to play like a wizard and buff-cleric respectively. Break it up by discipline rather than trying to make disparate abilities like telepathy and telekineses work in the same class.
rampant wrote:
The problem being that the one mechanic you offered for gaining contact is wholly innaprproraite for setitng up something like that. Allowing the use of a 'death' effect with no chance to resist, just because they failed a save earlier is just not a good idea.
i have posted my psion that is now finished on the dark sun boards
rampant wrote:
1) At will at its core. (4e had a good start with this, IMO.) Base psionics more off of mundane classes than magic ones. Powers should feel like additional limbs (or extensions of the current ones) instead of reflavored spells. You don’t manifest telekinesis, you ARE telekinetic. If it looks like a perfect base for a class about mutations, you’re doing it right.
And for the resource based effects, I think they should be regained through training. (XP gain or in town training / studying.) This is more different than psionic, which actually makes it psionic-ish IMO, but I would really like it if the Psion was the one in the party who was like, “guys, I blew all my points, let’s go fight on and advance the plot.” They would be the OPPOSITE of 5-min work day enforcer, the longer the day the more they get to do.
2) Make them counter-able by obvious(-ish?), mundane means; but different than magic. This is a tough one, but I think (and this is pure out of my back end) one of the biggest problems people have with Psionics is you really don’t know how to play with them unless you’ve looked into how they work. Wizards need to move and talk, so non-magic characters can make a plan to counter that. What plan can a non-psionic character make against someone who just stands there and crap happens? Apply large rock to the back of the head until the things stop happening? They should be interesting to fight, not make you default to "roll to attack” and curse the dang DM for allowing THAT book into the game.
One way (which I don’t think is good enough) is to make powers have a short range through air, long range through liquids and organic matter, and almost no range through solids and fire. It’s strange, but think about it. When you hear a psionic character is about, the first thing that will come to mind is the environment and how you can use and/or change it. Smashing open a keg will open up a ton of options for a psion, setting it on fire will shut them down. Setting THEM on fire will really shut them down. More strategy / tactics, yay! (I still don’t think it would be enough, but it’s an idea. Plus, it would just be weird with Pyrokineticists, but I like the fire part because combat can also use more fires.)
LuisCarlos17f wrote:
My wish is that they draw inspiration from the Deryni novels by Katherine Kurtz, which in my opinion did Psionics best, and was one of the key inspirations for the original Psionics as detailed in an early Dragon magazine issue.
The AD&D psionic powers were sciencies and devotions. Maybe the psion could use a encounter power points and a daily power points.
A "mutant" wilder could be like the psionic version of the prestige class "demobinder" from "Drows of the underdark".
A simple damage point could be enought to break a enemy bow rope, and a pirokinectic or "firestarter" could to make explode the gunpowder of the gunslinger.
I had liked a soulnkife subclass with maneuvers and poses from "Tome of Battle: book of nine swords".
@ Lawrenceahoy, Psionics aren't like magic they need to feel more organic and integrated into the character, an extension of the PC rather than some external force they're tricking or begging into helpng them. You can't do that if every psychic is picking up a dozen or so hyper specific abilities the same way wizards or clerics do. Psionic characters are almost always far more specialized than magical ones, even a versatile psychic generally has a limited number of psionic abilities that they then develop and hone, with the eruption of wholly new psionic abilities being rare and often traumatic events.
Here's my psionic wishlist... no psionics period.
VoltaicLime wrote:
As for psionic classes, Psychic Warrior should be a Fighter subclass, the Soulknife should be a Rogue subclass, and the Psion should be a full class of its own with Wilder and Eruidite (using an existing term for the generic psionicist). The Psion could have a second choice of specialization (nuch like the Warlock's pact types—book, chain, blade) for their primary Discipline (Telepathy, Metacreativity, Psychkineses, etc.) that gives them some type of thematic at-will power. The Psion could also follow the Warlock in being a quasi-Vancian caster with "spell" slots and at-wills (use the optional spell point system in the DMG if you want them to use a point-based casting method). Give options for psycrystals, and such. Include Duergar, Gith, Maenad, Thri-Kreen as playable races, and go to town on the monsters. 
Azzy1974 wrote:
Mistwell wrote:
Yeah, just like every fighter is different from every other.
Look at the kineticist from this free pdf from paizo, http://paizo.com/products/btpy9a0i?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Occult-Adventures-Playtest this is what I'm talking about, the class has a clear idea of what it wants to do and focuses on taking that to the limit, if you want psionic character who teleport and set people on fire with their minds you can multi-class, but no wizard ever gets the kind of skill and control these guys do with their abilities because the wizard class hands out dozens or hundreds of discrete abilities that, while there are tricks to derive benefits from using spells together, aren't really connected. The proposed pathfinder kineticist on the other hand masters their powers extensively and their abilities build from a small selection of abilities. Now for a truly psionic version I'd ditch the burn stuff and the auto scaling and use power points instead, but even now it's abetter psionic class than the 3e/3.5 psion.
rampant wrote:
You can have a robust class within the disciplines that's my point, the disciplines are already broad and versatile enough that each one rates a class easy. 5e benefits from having good classes, and psioniic classes that don't end up being crystal toting copies of existing classes, like how the 3e psion was a crystal carrying sorceror. Or the psychic warrior was essentially a selfish cleric. The best way to make psions stand out from vance casters is to enforce a level of specialization that wizards generally doesn't have the guts to enforce on its precious vancian classes, and reward that specialization with greater mastery over that one area.
rampant wrote:
I don't really care about having psionic classes, they might be cool for a psionics-heavy setting like Dark Sun but whatever. What I want is wild talents. I want the option to have characters develop psionic powers irrespective of their class. Bring back the original D&D model for psionics!
The_White_Sorcerer wrote:
The_White_Sorcerer wrote:
The soulknife is too diferent to be a warrior subclass. Have you seen the class features from 3.5 edition? To say psychic warrior should be a subclass is like to say paladin ought to be a subclass, and the ranger.
* Those feats from Dragon Magazine for soulknife about creating shields and no-swords weapons.
* I love the idea of blue (goblin subrace with psionice gifts) because they are the "nerds" of D&D monster humanoid, the evil cousin of master Joda.
* Feats about illithid heritace (from complete psionic).
* The return of brainstealer dragon..(because lots of PCs want to kick-*** Chulthu) from Dragon Magazine.
* A soulknife subclass with psionic power points pool.
* Parangon racial classes for PC races.
* A option for psionic wilder`s psychic enervation, she wouldn´t lose psionic powers but the "punishment" would be different, maybe something like the paradox from the rpg "Mage: the Sorcere's Crusade".
* Gem dragons, and half-dragons with psionic powers.
* Yuan-tis with psionic powers... (and the return of 2nd Ed cobra dragon to be the leader of yuan-ti cults).
rampant wrote:
For the people who want wild talents, would a feat work?
Well for example the kineticist would probably be a bit like the cleric, in that their sub-class kicks in at level 1. This would be where you picked your first kinetic ability, light, electricity, fire, telekinesis, one of those, and that would have a big impact, so the pyro kinetic is a sub-class of kineticist, as are the electro-, photo-, and tele-kinetics. That's four sub-classes right there.
Or maybe to make the core progression simpler all kinetics start out with telekinesis and have to choose an advanced kinesis later, still leaving you with three sub-classes.
A more difficult discipline is psychometabolism, plenty of cool powers but harder to draw the lines admittedly. In this case I'm thinking shapeshifting (enhancement shapeshifting, like the pathfinder spells, not this bit where you mimic th emonster manual entry) would be the focus of one sub-class, while another emphasized chemical modifications (acidic sweat, fire-breath, control over your adrenaline). This discipline is probably a bit more martially oriented, so it would replace the psychic warrior. Call it the Metabolist.
Nomad (psychoportation) would have to emphasize space manipulation vs. time manipulation.
Telepaths have plenty of things to specialize in mind reading, team-telepathy, mind-control, and the classic stand-by mind-blasting fools until their cerebellum leaks out their ears.
Seers/clairevoyants are the really hard ones, one idea I've had with them is to have some capable fo glimpsing the future, while others have hyper advanced sensory powers in the present that make them almost impossile to evade, fool, or hide from.
The soulknife is a sub-specialty at best, because really the only thing it can really claim as it's own is the mind-blade itself, which was never particularly good. It's 2ndary powers were either poorly thought out, didn't synergize, or just weren't worth it.
As far as feats for wild talents, I'm not sure. Feats can be pretty potent, but I'm not sure if the 4-5 feats most characters get is really gonna be enough to develop an appreciable psionic power, even assuming you specialize in someting like pyro, or mind-reading, without being loads better than all the other feats out there. HOnestly if you want a classless psionics system then I'd advise you to create a new pillar of character creation similar to 4e darksun's introduction of themes, and just have that be the vehicle for psionic powers, then you could install options for non-psionic characters using the same design space, maybe rules for PC vampires and therianthropes (skinchangers), or stuff like that.
LuisCarlos17f wrote:
Another issues with the soulknife as a class is that the mind-blade itself is really the core concept and most attempts to make a class around that have been a bit schizo.
I am warming to the idea of Psionics as something being wrapped up in subclasses (Fighter = Psychic Warrior, etc) and feats (wild talent, and so on), yet there is Agis of Asticles.
rampant wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
A hexblade has a coherent theme and something resembling a well-thought out set of class abilities.
rampant wrote:
Partly because 4e didn't even try make a soulknife. See the problem with a psionic soulknife is that since their inception their big selling point was the free magic weapon, even if that wasn't a questionable primary class feature, it doesn't translate well to 4e or 5e. $e because of the much tighter control on magic items and bonuses in general, 5e because magic items are not an assumed aspect of the game.
The only Hexblade I consider is the original 3rd Ed one, groovy class, I have converted it to 5th Ed quite easily. As for a mind/soul/spirit blade yadda, yadda-deal, that could be a psionic subclass of monk, or rogue.
Sometimes I have imagined hybrid classes with different power sources, for examble hexblade = arcane + ki maneuvers and soulknive = psionic + ki maneuvers. (When I say ki maneuvers I mean powers from "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords"). The warblade, swordsage and crusader (from "Tome of Battle") aren´t fighter subclasses at all. The ki maneuvers weren´t at-will powers, nor encounters powers, but in the middle.
Some archetypes would better variant classes than subclasses. What is a variant class? A class with a different list of class features, for example the gladiator from AD&D dark sun would be a fighter variant class. The erudite from the complete psionic is a psion variant class. The jester from Dragon Compedium could be a bard variant class (even a cool dungeon boss' sidesick to mock PCs). The concept of variant class is better to sell more powersources. Five pages of a new cool class is bettter than twenty boring pages about subclasses. When an achertype is too cool, it has to be a class, not a subclass.
* I had fogorten it, but one of my previous crazy suggestion was the "cofrater" (= brother or member of a brotherhood) class. It would be the D&D psionic version of jedi knights from Star Wars.
* A psionic subclass for oriental sohei class. Why not?
* A module about backlash points...when a wilder fails the punishment would be an astral construct who would attack the wilder, or a psionic trap in the battlefield, created with backlash power points.
* A soulknife can´t be only a warrior subclass because it has too many class features.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20040402a&page=2
* Psiloi (=nude) could be the name of a psionic fighter subclass without armour.
* Sometimes I have imagine a physic warrior with a weapon controlled by telekinesis, for example a spiked chain like a snake-like construct.
* Psionic artificier and psiforged shouln´t be fogorten.
* Why when I think about a D&D version of Naruto the ninja from the manga/abune I imagine the lurker class from the complete psionic?
Actually the naked warrior sub-class works better with barbarian a form of zero-point tk that replaces armor and renders them capable of what appear to be feats of physical power but in realiy are the psychic manifestation of their rage. Sub-classes are great for psionic sub-specialities and niche skills.
Well in the generalist model it would be mor elike being a psion gets you the class skeleton (HD, saves, weapon/armor profs, etc.) , the power point progression (One thing to consider what if power points are an encounter resource, but you can overchannel things for daily effects (because overchannel deals your level, or maybe twice your level, in non-lethal damage back to you and can't be healed without a long rest). Then the disciplines and sub-disciplines give you access to specific sorts of powers, based less on power and more on complexity and finesse. So a basic pyro would unlocka few blasty options, but then when it came time to choose a new discipline or specialization he could opt to learn to invert his power to create cold effects by sucking the heat out of places and expnd is arsenal that way, or to learn basic telekinesis, or basic telepathy.
Now the other details depend on whether you're using the Paizo Kineticist model or the discrete spell model: With the spell model it's a matter of learning spells in some sort of vague order so that you don't end up with Telepaths who are randomly capable of telekinetic surgery, but otherwise unable to do even basic spoonbending. With the Paizo kineticist model you need a progression for the various maniupulations you can addto your powers and the discipline or sub-discipline gives you a basic relevant new power or mod and mostly just offers up new options for you to select from. Either way you don't wanna gimp the expanded powers for being new, you need to limit their refinement not their brute power. So even if a high level psion unlocks telekinesis late after focusing on telepathy for most of his life he should still be able to use power points and burn to hype up the damage, but he shouldn't be capable of tricks requiring precision and control no pebble trick, no long distance heart grbbing, no snatching arrows in mid flight, and certainly no telekinetic brain surgery, until he's invested some time and character resources in learning those tricks.
The psychic warrior an iffy class at best, especially in 5e. Using the generalist psionic class mod I would advise that the psychic warrior simply have a slowed progression of discipline/specialty acquisition so if the psion is 1-5-9-13-17, the psychic warrior would be 1-6-11-16. Unde rthe discipline as class model I'd prefer there would be no psychic warrior although the metabolist and Nomad would be taking up a lot of the slack in that regaurd.
I really like the idea of psionic subclasses (Psychic Warrior/Battlemind a Fighter subclass, etc), and see much potential for Ki.
rampant wrote:
edwin_su wrote:
The surgery thing is a useful example in my mind because surgery involves lots of fine manipulation and multi-tasking, and lots of people know that on some level. Ok so inverted pyrokinesis may not be the most universally loved idea the point is that you can choose to expand your options or learn advanced tricks based on your old dsiciplines. SO maybe basic pyro is blasty stuff, and advanced is wher eyou get boiling blood, internal combustion, whips made of fire, or even fire based flight. You get the idea right? As for finesse things being utility based... Do you even know what the pebble trick is? For an electro kinetic it's also called the ball bearing trick. Basically you use a tremendous among of tele or electrokinetic effort to move a very small bit of matter very fast, like a rail gun. Multi-targeting and holding things in place would also be finesse tricks, changin the shape of your effects, or dueling three opponents at once using levitated swords. Trust me control and precision can rende ra telekinetic far more deadly than if he just throws boulders around.
If you use a power point or burn system then damage output is controlle dbylevel and/or resource investment anyway, you don't need to worry about nuking the damage of the new powers. Spells will be spell slot limited and as long as you enforce a progression there again it's not a problem. A basic application can be powerful, but it won't be anywhere near as efficient or versatile as a refined user. So yeah letting a psion cast their newly acquired telekinetic dope slap at thier max level isn't a problem, it's just ognna be a bit of single target damage, what I find stupid is when they can whip out a half-dozen TK crushing holds because they were allowed to pick up the multiple crushing holds power with no prior tk development.
rampant wrote:
rampant wrote:
rampant wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
ankiyavon wrote:
Well basically using the paizo kineticist model or the warlock from 3.5 as the inspiration, the psionic disciplines would have talents, like Telekinesis which would have a dope slap setting as part of the at-will abilities Then every level or every other level, or maybe every level they don't learn a new discipline/specialty, some sort of pattern the psion can learn a new mod for any of their known talents. Some mods will be pretty versatile like kinetic multi-targeting but there's enough overlap that I don't really see that as a separate skill for tele vs. pyro kinetics, telepathic multi-targeitng on the other hand might be.
I really like that idea. Super Innvocations with some resource managment to upcast/ super dope slap them bitches.
lawrencehoy wrote:
There needs to be a basic any psi class sub-cantrip, called "Psionics Is Broken", and the only effect is to impose Disadvantage on the target's next Intelligence check (whenever that might be).
And variants such as:
"Psionics Is Crazy" targets Wis
"Psionics Is Scary" targets Cha
Here' it's a free download currently, and the kineticist is the first class, and probably the best. Assuming it doens't get changed too much I'll be buying the book just for that bad boy. The other classes are certainly better than the core spell casters in my mind but kineticist is the real standout IMO.
http://paizo.com/products/btpy9a0i?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Occult-Adventures-Playtest
Neat; thanks for the link!
Necroing because I finally got around to reading the kineticist.
I think it's a neat class, and now I want to play PF so I can play one. However, I would not want to see it used as the model for a psionicist.
Much too blasty. To me, psionics is a subtle discipline, with very few blasting abilities in general; they focus on utility over damage, especially subtle utility like telekinetic adjustments and minor illusions or telepathic effects. Someone who is just standing there hurling around blasts of elemental damage at-will, and who controls the elements? That's not even remotely the way I think of psionics. It's a cool character and a concept that should exist, but they're an arcane class to me, not a psionic class. (PF's 'psychic magic' is close enough for me, it's not arcane/divine but neither is it psionic.)
If kineticist was the psionicist class we got, it would not have done anything towards filling the gap I feel exists currently with the lack of a psionicist class. It wouldn't help me having psionics any more than the warlock class helps with having psionics.
I wont say that psionics should have no blast options, cause I totally think there should be that option, even if they arent as powerful as the sorcerer at it.
cowleymen wrote:
If discipline = class the kineticist will need lots of blasty because he's the freaking kineticist. That's one of the things kineticists are good at, blasty.
Using the, meh, generalist approach it's still a good model you just have to have basic powers that are non-blasty, and shape/infusions that work with non-blasty. The idea is that you have a handful of psionic abilities that you can learn to modify for more effectiveness and a free-flowing style instead of hyper discrete spells. The kineticist is a fine example of that even if his power selection is a bit limited.
I think the generalist is a more likely outcome is all. I wouldnt mind seeing some more distinct powers getting their own classes, just dont think its likely.
I admit the generalist model is more likely, however I maintain that discipline based classes is a better idea.
I think it is most likely to be designed like the Fighter; with a generalist sub-class getting extra choices in place of enhancements to existing choices. The more focused sub-classes would get the enhancements to the choices that align with their preferred discipline; hopefully with some customizable options.
That sounds very awkward for a psionic generalist class. One of the reasons I suggested that in the event of generalist they shouldn't be a class+sub-class kind of deal, but instead the 'base class' be little more than a skeleton composed of HP and skills with a power point progression while the multiple 'sub-classes' you pick up providing the actual abilities and customization.
My choice would be a generalist class with a subclass for each discipline.
Basically the same way cleric works with domains. You might have different weapon and armor proficiencies, you would definitely have different at-will powers (cantrip choice). Although a good way might be like the arcane trickster; say, the kineticist automatically learns the mage-hand equivalent cantrip and when using it has some kind of massive bonus. Any psionicist can learn how to move things with his mind, but none of them do it as well as the kineticist.
I could see that as a baseline; give every discipline one combat cantrip and one utility cantrip that they automatically know and receive a bonus when using.
Or instead of making every psionic characer into a rediculously versatile character, why not just remove power selection from the base class entirely, all power selection comes from 'sub-class' and at certain levels you can choose to gain access to a new sub-class with oit's own power options, and you can have the basic 4-5 disciplines be the basic options and then have advanced versions that are more specialized stuff, so a telepath could expand into telekinesis or choose to gain access to refine their mind-blasty stuff, or their mind-reading, or their thralling technique. BUt you have a limited number of opportunities to expand your powers known list and you can't skip steps going from basic abilities to hyper refined application of a power.
rampant wrote:
That's kind of the thing isn't it. That level of versatility is rather unusual for psionic characters in fiction. I mean yes versatile psionic characters exist, it's just that it's generally a process to get there. Most psionic characters in fiction have 1-2 powers and just apply them with varying levels of power, skill, and cunning. It's very rare for psionic characters to start out with the kind of laundry list of abilities a 1st level wizard has, and even powerful psi-characters generally only develop so many new abilities. I can understand the reasoning behond a generalist psionic class capable of representing a broad array of psionic archetypes, the issue is the class shouldn't allow any one character to gain access to any and all psionic powers.
I'm okay with versatility being an option it just needs to be implemented in an appropriate manner with a commensurate opportunity cost.
The thing is, I don't care about fiction in this context. Not even a little. So what I want isn't based on it. What I want is to be able to play the same kind of psionic characters I used to play in 2E.
I understand that different people have different opinions, and that's fine, I'm just explaining where I'm coming from.
Psionics should NOT be like the Mental Mutations list from Gamma World v1 (1980). The list was a jumble of useful, powerful, corner-case, story-telling, related, unrelated, and useless powers that you rolled randomly to see what you got. (I once had a character that could control the weather and plant a single-target tickle on somebody.)
Instead, start with a basic utility ability (Telepathy as GOO Warlock?) and, much like a Monk, spend psi points to do more with it - at the top end, emulate Saruman in Orthanc trying to persuade King Theoden and Gandalf to join him. The Elemental Monk might provide a comparison for both the mechanic and the power / capability progression.
I briefly (L1 - L3) played a 4e Psion and enjoyed it; I was heading towards Thrallherd with the concept but got diverted by "Yoda and the X-Wing" telekinesis power along the way.
Psionics will need a way to take over an NPC and a way to detect which NPC is worth taking over (or trying to take over) - then be able to do more than "MBA his ex-allies" or make gratituously stupid tactical decisions (provoke AoO from all my melee-artist allies) with him.
I've mentioned this before, but it's been so long ago that it likely was eaten the last time the forums changed. This is my general vision for the types of psychic characters:
The three main types of psychics that stick out in my mind are the telepath/empath, the kinetecist, and the spiritualist/seer. The kinetecist is your typical blaster, the empath/telepath is your classical mind reader, and the spiritualist/seer is your psychic who communes with spirits and/or sees the future.
I prefer the term esper, a corruption of Extra Sensory Perception (ESP). The issue I have with these guys is that I'm not sure if they and nomads constitute separate discipline sbecause a lot of espers have the ability to sense the dimensions nomads move through and manipulate, while plenty of nomads have shown no especial insight into time or extra dimensions that wasn't derived form trial and error experiments with their powers. However neither one seems to really be able to take their powers to the upper limits without developing some aspect of the other's abilities. This relationship is probably the best argument for a single versatile psionic class to be honest.
@ ankiyevon, admittedly yes fiction does play a role in my desire to see psionic disciplines be a bit harder to pick up than spell schools, however I also think that it's just better class design to force a level of opportunity cost. The way casters are currently written all the burden for keeping the classes balanced is placed on not introducing hordes of new spells that increase their power or versatility. While the individual spell lists with decreased overlap certianly help, it still leaves room for the accumulation to happen at a later date. No admittedly when you intriduce new options for any class you run a risk of creating an OP option or expanding beyond the class's intended boundaries, but an option that costs character building resources such as a feat or a sub-class tend to be under more scutiny and is at least costing something of significant value in order to get it. Plus it creates a clear differnece between psionic classes and magic classes that helps preven psionic X classes.
MechaPilot wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
I don't see why the psionic warrior needs to be a separate class/sub-class at all. The psychometabolist for example is perfect for frontline actions, nomads/espers have obvious advantages in a fight, telepaths (especially those who emphasize mind reading) would be downright nasty in a scrap, Kineticists admittedly would probably emphasize long range but melee applications of their powers certainly exist.
rampant wrote:
rampant wrote:
One of the advantages of individual characters having a limited number of powers it's easier to justify a d8 HD.
rampant wrote:
I support the idea of a generalist psion with subclasses for each discipline. Why not to add an option, the variant class the erudite from the complete psionic handbook?
About the "blaster"... it may be for a remade "wilder", a "X-Men" who suffers a special penalty when use too much powers, for example an hostile astral construct, or losing special bonus, or a berseker blaster condiction...
I like the concept of "cofrater" (=brother or member of a brotherhood), the D&D psionic version of jedi knights from Star Wars.
Soulknife may be a hybrid class, psionic and the (ki) maneuvers from "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords", with alternative packs of class features (or talent trees). A subclass should get a psionic power points pool.
Some concepts or ideas could be alternative talent trees, but my advice is for marketing reasons, an interesting archetype ought to be a different class. Players want to play different and new classes because they are own marks of identity, for example somebody wants to be a psionic ardent because always a standard cleric is too boring.
Note: I don't think the Psion should be a "psionic Wizard analog." With that in mind I sat down and thought hard about where Psychic legends and lore began, what Psychic schtick is at its core and how to bring something unique and balanced/competitive to the table. I followed the DMG rules for modifying a class and this was the result.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1d7uD2KC1c0WJWhD0BOROy7c6WPScvZN7qqj0JTkOzmc/edit
For my Wishlist going forward:
Psychic phenomena (schtick) are Psychokinesis, Telepathy, and Clairvoyance. At higher level there's a little teleportation here and there. Everything else (Pyrokinesis, Cryokinesis, Metacreativity, etc) is hijacked by Sorcery or Wizardry and can stay there. I'd rather Psions be strong at but limited to their schtick than have them all over the place. If you want to hurl fire, be a wizard or a sorc or a warlock.
I would rather Mindblade, Psycic Warrior, and some other be subclasses of the Psion class. I don't see the need for class bloat with bounded accuracy and things like "get another HP/HD" open as class features.
A Race might have innate psychic powers (see gith and illithids) but bloodlines do not. If you "inherited" your psychic powers, they are magic and you have some monster in the family tree you sorceror you. It's a little counterintuitive, but I think Psychic stuff should be the result of evolution or deep self analysis, while you might gain some advanced genes being a crossbreed, I think being part of the culture of that advanced race should be what awakens such a power.
Please let me know what you think!
@ luis, The erudite was a bad idea, the whole concept of unbounded spell/power knowledge was one of the things that killed the class balance in 3e. Artificers, Divine casters, and wizard types, and then the erudite, were the most unbalanced classes primarily because they could literally do anything, and unlike the casters who had to choose a limited set of powers known did not pay signigficant opportunity costs to gain new powers, the gold cost for a wizard scribing a spell quuickly became a pittance, and the artificers and divine casters didn't even have to bother with that if the spell was on their list and was castable in universe they could accessit, or in the artificer's case build items based on it if it was on anyone's lists. They're manageable now in 5e because we only have a few spells, unless wizards is really restrictive about adding new spells each book is gonna add on to the wizard and divine casters power and versatility much faster than they increase the versatility of the classes that pay opportunity costs. Jedi/cofrator is a really weak class concept, I mean mechanically jedi are primarily telekinetics with some telepathic or esper development. Jedi were not just random peopel picked up off the street, Jedi were highly trained force sensitives more appropriate to a prestige class or advanced subclass. The soulknife is iffy at best because again it's highly specialized however botht he paizo kineticist and the 3e warlock have a solution they can channel their power into a weapon, or form their power into the shape of a weapon, it's not a class, it's an application.
@ tyrant, I agree with metacreativty, but what's wrong with pyro and electro kinesis those are fairly established as being within the realm of psionic characters.
A warlock with a sword isn´t a true warlock but a hexblade... and a warlock is too poor to buy a expensive sword, she would use a scythe.
Jedi knights have got a harder training, but I could play a 1st level jedi in the Star Wars d20. Also I can play a 1st level monk, ninja or swordsage. My idea of "cofrater" is a monk without armour, but with a sword and some psionic tricks.
* A psionic erudite could do a lot of things, but she couldn´t all type of things in only a day.
* The popular archetypes can´t be subclasses or prestige classes, it is by marketing reasons.
* Maybe we need optional talent trees for soulknife.
An advanced sub-class is an optional talent tree, it's just one that has certain reqirements first. A soulknife requires at least minimal Kinesis before you can develop the level of automatic control using a mind blade requires.
The d20 starwars jedi always seemed a bit busy and incoherent, the sword skills didn't really mesh with the force powers for starters. THe problem is that the force described in starwars is more akin to druidic magic in nature than psionics.
Some concepts or achetypes should be classes, or variant classes, because they are too cool, too good to be only subclasses. A class isn´t only a list of powers and class features, it is a mark of identity. When WotC wants to publish new classes to sell more sourcebooks, better to use the most popular archetypes or concepts. Why knight only a prestige class when it may be in the future Dragonlance player's handbook, why gladiator a subclass when it can be in the new Dark Sun player's handbook?
Because unless you can back that identity up with a WORTHWHILE mechanical feature it's just clutter. That's one of the reasons soulknives are so hard to implement as independent class or pestige classes it's main schtick is a glowing weapon. The problem with jedi as a class, much less a psionic one, is that the training and skills of the jedi are not consistent beyond a tendency towards 'light-side' techniques and the sword skills. JEdi works better as something you come into rather than a base class, even when the order was recruiting kids they had to pick force sensitives, and train them in force techniques before they got to wield a real lightsaber. It's more like those prestiious classes from UA, or maybe a sub-class that kicks in at 3rd level or higher. I mean level 3 is about the minimum I could see for a padawan learner. JEdi is almost more of a faction and creedo than any specific set of abilties.
Gladiators are a bit of a fuzzy area, they're universal enough that almost any archetype could do a stint in the pits, although thos ewho identify as gladiators, or get identified as gladiators, tend to be the big flashy types who put on a good show. MEchanically speaking I'd say a Panache using fighter sub-class, I'm not sure it's strong enough to stand up as a class though.
rampant wrote:
In the past the "crusader" was only a "subclass" but when the "Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords" was published it became a complete class. Maybe the gladiator could be a future class with maneuvers, a mixture of monk and warblade.
Remember the pathfinder classes: knight, inquisitor, swashbuckler, gunslinger, oracule, witch... known archetypes with own class features.
* Of course, interesting concepts and archetypes need a right mechanical feature, not only for balance of power but fun gameplay.
I'd put gladiator more akin to being somewhere between a fighter, a rogue, and a pathfinder duelist (an alternate gunslinger using panache instead of grit). See a gladiator especially one who wants to make a career of it is as much a showman as a warrior. They have to razzle and dazzle and make themselves stand out in order to build an image so that people will remember them. The gladiator maneuvers would need to be focused more on fancy moves than the utilitarian tactical maneuvers of the battlemaster, they need abilities that draw attention to them shake the enemy en masse, let the whole battlefield know just who exactly they are, they need to be show stealers and stoppers, using powers based as much on skills like bluff and tumble as much as weapon arts a gladiator has to not just be fun to play, but fun to watch.
Th egeneralist psion with multiple subclasses uses smaller sub-classes being a telepath doesn't get you automatic access to dominate/thrall you have to develop basic teepathy first, and then later select domination as an advanced telepathy discipline in order to access it. So the class is defined by stringing together 3-5 sub-classes rather than a class+subclass. This forces the payment of opportunity costs, you can develop incredible telepathic power at the cost of reduced potential for telekinesis.
Also I said one class per discipline. 5e doesn't have BaB different for each class, making your telepath or esper a warrior is as simple as picking up the weapon and armor feats, which don't completely bite in 5e, the stat point covereth a multitude of sins.
Hello everyone. Some of you may have seen the thread where I posted should the gladiator be a sub class or a full class? Well I have done a write up of both trying to stick to the 5th edition format. I drew on all the gladiator material that I have and could find including other systems. Keep in mind the gladiator was its own class in 4th, the Darksun PHB. So I have decided to write up both the sub was quick enough some minor mechanics to tweak iam going to use a point based fame /infamy system based on the options in the DMG. The reason the gladiator needs to be more than just a reskinned battlemaster is simple I want to give it the attention it deserve like they did in 4th and 2nd edition.
@rampant, I have read and reread all your posts regarding the psionicists/Psion. I even had a friend play the class you mentioned on a number of occasions from pathfinder. So as far as the group I play with we are going to use the disciplines were you choose 1 when creating the character and latter will have limited access (meaning powers/spells of lower levels only, most likely 1st -3rd ). If I am understanding you regarding your desires for the psionic class sounds very much like the discipline should be a class or subclass, and then a power tree if you will within that discipline. It reminds me of the star wars MMO, and that’s fine but instead I am going to use a simple augment system like they use in the PHB, casting at a higher level, and adding certain augments (multiple targets, advantage to hit, etc...) but only to certain powers. The psionic warrior or soul blade will be a simple subclass. I will be writing up the powers that are available for each discipline. This last part is what’s taking the longest, that and the holidays have things on hold.
Then I look forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts on the psionicists powers, the gladiator as either a subclass or a class in its own rights, and the disciplines and the abilities they give.
I'd like to see...
- A primary psionicist class
- A Fighter and Rogue sub-class
- Several Disciplines of which the psion would have a primary and secondary to choose from. These would be the natural iconic psion abilities such psychokinetics, psychomatabolism, shaping, etc...
- Each power defined with augmentation effects that allow the psion to augment the behavior of the power based on applied power points.
- I'd like to basically see what Mr. Mearls described...
"Let's say we wanted to do psionics. We'd tie that to a campaign you can play, maybe one centered on mind flayers or a similar foe. The psionic sourcebook would be the player's companion to the DM's mind flayer campaign. The sourcebook would have all the info for creating psionic characters, along with world material for players who are creating characters for the mind flayer campaign. The player's book might also have a chapter written from an in-world perspective on psionics and psionic monsters, the kind of information that a character might have access to or have heard. You can expect us to do one or two such products a year, to give people enough time to play through a campaign without overwhelming them with new options."
5 makes no sense, are you trying to say it'd be specfific to an adventure? or a setting? Or what?
rampant wrote:
The thing is that the psionic warrior is kind of not needed in 5e. Yeah a sb-class that alloows accesss to a limited discipline for fighters or rogues would be cool, the concept of a psionic warrior is rather iffy. It's part of the problem I had with 3e psionics trying to defne psionic classes by the old mage-thief-fighter division rather than having the psionic character develop a specific power or powers. 5e is a great place to ditch the concept because wepaon use is tied to the proficiency sstem instead of a BaB system thus allowing every class to become a decent 'warrior'.
The wilder also seems iffy because psionic characters tend to be like that naturally, psionics is something inherent, emotions and such will alwas influence it's manifestation having a scholarly psion and an emotional psion is just trying to mimic arcane casters with the wiz-sorc split. Psionic classes/sub-classes need to be divided based on the powers they are developing, not be shoved into molds of the other classes.
cowleymen wrote:
rampant wrote:
Possible, likely even.
The big thing is that I want psionic class/sub-classes to be based on their psionic abilities rather than being forced into the molds of the existing classes. That's why I think a psychic warrior isn't really a good class idea, and that the division between the wilder and the 'normal' psion is stupid. Psychic power should be divvied up by discipline and specialization, and those alone are good enough to stand as sub-classes if not whole classes in and of themselves. I really like psionics but I hated how most o the 3e psionic classes were basically psionic-x classes.
The soulknife is a really creative idea, but it generally doens't hold together as a class because the mind blade is a weapon, and thus in and of itself not a class. It's a great supplemental ability for someone who has developed a bit of kinetic power and control already bt in and of itself doens't translate to a whole class.
I can only hope (though I doubt it) that they base the new psionicist on the 2nd Edition psionicist.
The Complete Psionics is probably the best D&D suplement ever released. It added a totally unique class to the game both in concept, feel and mechanics, and everything in that book seemed to fit perfectly into the concept of the class.
I don't think psionics are appropriate to every type of D&D campaign, so there are times when I don't use them, but when I do that's the only book that matters (or that has mattered so far) and is a true masterpiece of game design.
The 3e pionics are absolute crap.
The two versions of it, 3e and 3.5, just total horrendousness. It's just a wizard renamed to something else with slightly different spells. It was pure bloat with nothing of the uniqueness that the 2e psionicist has.
Dunno much about the 2e psionicist, but I do think that 3.5 psionics contributed 1 highly useful concept to the game: augmentation. Maybe it wasn't implemented in the most original way in 3.5 proper but it got the idea out there.
Rastapopoulos wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
I'd personally prefer something akin to a 3.5 warlorck where you have a basic power (eldritch blast) and you can enhance it with class features (although I'd suggest a power point based augmentation system instead of warlock invocations). However requiring some sort of progression from basic tk dope slap to complicated things like multiple held targets seems highly appropriate if you have to go with the discrete powers route.