Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Horwath May 03, 2015 9:10:17	5th edition has again small issue as 3rd with redundant and non necessary/needed weapon and armor proficiencies. Whether they come from race or class proficiencies.   biggest problem is with mountain dwarf. hill dwarf and elf not that much.   You get 4 martial weapons and light and medium armor proficiency.   that is great if you are wizard/sorcerer, good if you're rogue/warlock/bard. maybe OK for cleric, if you really want that warhammer/battle-ax. And completely useless if you're barbarian, fighter, monk, ranger, paladin.     Now, we know the reason why dwarves and elves have their racial proficiencies. It's their culture and all must know that. But if they have learned that while they were basicaly kids, they have some spare time in their formal(read class training). That spare time could be used to learn some stuff that would be spent on those name proficiencies.   First thought is NOT to give bonus feats as that would break the game instantly.     But what then?   Skills and tools proficiency. And maybe languages.   So if dwarf or elf have a class that has proficiency in all martial weapons, they get one bonus class skill or some tool to train.   Dwarves(mountain) could also trade their armor proficiency on one-for-one basis.     2nd problem: non-needed armor proficiency by class itself.   Let's take the fighter; 3 armor proficiencies, light, medium and heavy.   But what if your character starts with 16-17 dex? Too much for medium armor and we wont even mention heavy. would that character even be trained in heavy armor by his/hers trainers? Or would they see the futility in that on the first glance and use that training time for another field of expertise?   So suggestion is again on skills/tools. For every armor proficiency traded you get one skill training bonus. OR tool training.   Also, any one of those skills could be traded for knowledge of 2 languages.     This would give characters more options in other 2 pillars of the game(exploration and social), as they would have more skills to spend on them.   there could be placed some hardcap on how many skills can be gained like this. 2,3 or 4 could be a good number.
#2 mellored May 03, 2015 12:01:06	mountain dwarves are intentional. basicly get +2 str for the weapon classes, or medium armor for the non weapon classes. elves are similar, it's a bonus for non weapon classes, who can't make much use of it, added to plenty of other features. you can get new skill and tool if you already have proficency from somewhere else. that's in the rules somewhere.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria May 03, 2015 12:18:11	Don't let yourself fall into the trap of thinking that all of the races are built on a "they all come out exactly the same according to this measurement of metric" way that would require any unused feature to be replaced or else the race feel it didn't get enough cool stuff, because that is not the case.   Each racial feature is carefully analyzed for exactly how much of an impact it has on how wide a range of characters, and it is weighted on a curve to represent that - such as that the Dwarf racial trait of Stonecunning has basically zero impact on most campaigns, so Dwarves get it as a complete freebie and no other race needs to be given something else to "balance" that fact.   And I agree with everything that Mellored said regarding the Mountain Dwarves (who either get the great benefit of their +2 Strength when they are a class to which that is important, and get the great benefit of their armor proficiency whenever it isn't) and the elves (who would be great race choices even without the racial weapon proficiencies, regardless of class being played).
#4 JadePH0ENIX May 03, 2015 12:23:37	Hmm... I guess it's a matter of opinion. Personally I wont care if any class features are going to be "useless" because of features I get through the background and/or any class I pick. Having an extra profiency with armor or weapons usually isn't that powerful anyways. It's more like fluff.   Yes it's nice if my mountain dwarf mage can wield a battleaxe. But unless your mage also has a high strength rating even simple cantrips like shocking grasp are at least equal. And it's cool that you can wear medium armor and cast spells in it. But even the best medium armor (the expensive half plate) is only 2 points better then mage armor. It also limits the dex bonus to AC and gives you a disadvantage on stealth rolls and takes quite a while to don if your surprised while in camp. So while those profiencies are nice to have they don't actually make you that much more powerful.   I definitely would not replace any profiencies just because my fighters attributes are "too high" for heavy armor. What if said fighter later on finds a magical full plate +3 ? Suddenly it might still be usefull to use that armor instead of his breastplate.   But thats just my opinion. As always it's YOUR game. You might be better off getting the opinions of your gaming group and see what they think about the subject.
#5 Mirtek May 03, 2015 12:21:50	Horwath wrote:
#6 masterfat78 May 03, 2015 16:55:58	Racial proficiencies are fine the way they are. Yeah martial classes dont get alot of use from them, but dwarves are already great tough fighters and elves make great dex fighters so racials are there to beef up other classes slightly. You wouldnt here everyone proclaim dwarven wizards OPed orwhatnot without them. Oh and longbow prof. is killer for elven monks, an already dex class.
#7 RCanine May 03, 2015 17:43:29	The racial weapon proficiencies are a bummer because they are really hard to use. Every class is given access to at least as good weapons, so the proficiences are almost entirely fluff disguised as crunch.   I think one "fix" would be to allow PCs to start at level 1 with one weapon (and for mountain dwarves one piece of armor) that their race gives them proficiency with, since they can get expensive.   I would also houserule monk not to lose the benefits of your martial arts if you're carrying a racial weapon (even if you don't get to apply the damage or attack with DEX).
#8 Greenstone.Walker May 03, 2015 18:51:00	RCanine wrote:
#9 RCanine May 03, 2015 22:41:10	Greenstone.Walker wrote:
#10 mellored May 04, 2015 5:27:21	Elven rogues probably make the best use out of the racial proficency.  But mainly for the range, not damage.
#11 Horwath May 04, 2015 8:50:55	Mirtek wrote:
#12 Tempest_Stormwind May 04, 2015 12:48:46	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #12) AaronOfBarbaria	Tempest_Stormwind wrote: