Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Thank_Dog Aug 21, 2014 1:27:48	Anyone else wish that the quarterstaff was still finessable?
#2 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 1:43:56	It is if you're a monk. ;)   More seriously: a quarterstaff is a big hunk of wood. Being able to twirl that around like a ninja should require you to have specific ninja training. (Like becoming a monk). As a DM, I would allow you to take a feat that allows you to use quarterstaff and spear as finesse weapons.
#3 CaptainPicard Aug 21, 2014 1:45:28	I miss this too. At least Monks can treat it as such. I would also like, at minimum, at least one two handed martial finesse weapon.   I suppose this was removed from it to prevent Wizards and Sorcerers from having an easily acquired, strong melee attack, but I don't think the existence of such a thing would be debalancing in the slightest.   In general, I think I'm just going to let people say it's a finesse weapon.
#4 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 1:59:35	CaptainPicard wrote:
#5 Eric888 Aug 21, 2014 2:09:21	It really should be a finesse weapon. Since casters will pretty much always have a higher dexterity than strength, it is impossible to for a quarterstaff to be a competitive caster weapon without being finesse, and having 100% of casters wield daggers is lame.
#6 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 2:52:04	Eric888 wrote:
#7 TiaNadiezja Aug 21, 2014 2:54:58	Eh, dagger's not bad. Not great, but not bad.
#8 masterfat78 Aug 21, 2014 2:57:13	Dooflegna wrote:
#9 TiaNadiezja Aug 21, 2014 3:03:08	masterfat78 wrote:
#10 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 3:04:38	masterfat78 wrote:
#11 DLfan Aug 21, 2014 3:13:45	Well the one thing that daggers open up for casters is dual weilding. It is so easy in this edition I cannot see why every wizard, warlock or sorcerer would not do it since daggers make them viable combatants.  I don't think I would ever take a staff as a caster now except as window dressing.
#12 TiaNadiezja Aug 21, 2014 3:17:07	DLfan wrote:
#13 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 3:25:59	TiaNadiezja wrote:
#14 TiaNadiezja Aug 21, 2014 3:40:18	Dooflegna wrote:
#15 pauln6 Aug 21, 2014 12:26:28	I might just look a 4e and produce a custom feat that lets you use it as a finesses weapon and a double weapon like the polearm feat.  Dunno how balanced that would be atm but looks good to me.
#16 Joe_the_Rat Aug 21, 2014 12:50:11	TiaNadiezja wrote:
#17 seti Aug 21, 2014 13:18:43	Eh, I want the staff to be a finesse weapon, so it shall be when I DM.   I also want it to be a defensive weapon, and add +1 to AC without a feat. (Just proficiency) Again, so it shall be.   Speaking of staff weapons, I want a d10 finesse monks spade. Anyone who plays a monk when I DM can have one.
#18 ChrisCarlson Aug 21, 2014 13:34:08	seti wrote:
#19 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 18:49:53	seti wrote:
(Reply to #19) seti	Dooflegna wrote:
#21 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 20:11:05	seti wrote:
(Reply to #21) seti	Dooflegna wrote:
#23 Kalani Aug 21, 2014 21:02:31	If you are looking for a weaponmaster monk, here is a draft Kensai/Sohei/Shaolin monk I am working on. Its unfinished, but it might give you some ideas.   Way of the Bushi Monks of the Way of the Bushi follow a tradition that blends martial arts, philosophy and armed combat into a seemless whole. These monks might be called Kensei, or Sohei, and they serve as frontline warriors on the battlefield.    [name required] Starting at 3rd level when you choose this tradition, you gain proficiency with the dart, glaive, longbow, longsword, scimitar, shortbow, sling, and shortbow, and treat the glaive, longsword, and scimitar as monk weapons. In addition, you learn maneuvers which are fueled by special dice called superiority dice. Maneuvers: You learn two maneuvers of your choice from the following list: disarming attack, feinting attack, lunging attack, precision attack, pushing attack, sweeping attack or tripping attack. You gain 1 new maneuver of your choice from the above list at 7th, and 11th levels.  Superiority Dice. You have 1 superiority die, which is a d6. A superiority die is expended when you use it. You regain your superiority die when you finish a short or long rest. In addition, when you make a melee attack using a monk weapon, you may spend 2 ki points to regain your spent superiority die. You can regain your superiority die in this manner a number of times equal to your wisdom modifier (minimum ), after which you must finish a short or long rest before you can regain more superiority dice. At 11th level, your superiority die becomes a d8. If you have superiority dice from levels in the fighter class, you have a total of 4 superiority dice, which are d8s, and can recharge your dice in the manner described above (but no more than once/turn).  One strike, Two Cuts At 6th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage dealt when making a melee attack with a monk weapon, in addition to your Strength or Dexterity modifier. In addition, you cannot be disarmed when wielding a monk weapon in one or two hands.   Iaijutsu Strike By 11th level, you have learned how to strike unexpectedly and with lethal force. When you make a melee attack with a monk weapon, you can spend 3 ki points to make that attack with advantage. If the attack hits, it is treated as a critical hit. You can spend a superiority die when making this attack as normal. Once you have used this ability, you must finish a long or short rest before it can be used again.   Kensei 17th level ability unknown.
#24 seti Aug 21, 2014 21:32:04	I like that a lot so far, Kalani. How would you relate weapons to flurry? Would the weapon strikes go up in damage dice to keep up with unarmed strike getting more powerful as a Monk levels? I'm wondering if one flurry strike is the weapon, the other(s) unarmed...Or if the whole flurry could be weapon, and this type of monk would just eschew unarmed strikes completely...   Superiority dice are cool as hell. I was initially hoping (during the playtest) that everyone (or at least every martial class) would get them in some form...Sort of replicating encounter powers from 4e.   Also, a weapon master monk should have access to something like a spiked chain as a Monk Weapon IMO, unless 5e just isn't going to have those for some reason.
#25 Kalani Aug 21, 2014 21:41:46	seti wrote:
#26 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 22:18:18	seti wrote:
#27 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 22:31:42	Kalani wrote:
#28 Dooflegna Aug 21, 2014 22:34:21	Kalani wrote:
#29 Kalani Aug 21, 2014 22:37:05	Dooflegna wrote:
#30 FFSAA Aug 22, 2014 7:29:48	QStaff is already too good.  As a weapon it is worse than a spear, but in D&D it's the same damage as not only a spear but the martial trident.   As for finesse, no.  No bludgeoning weapon should be finesse.  You can make an unreasonable argument for slashing and a somewhat plausible one for piercing, but not for bludgeoning.
(Reply to #8) Elton74	masterfat78 wrote:
(Reply to #30) seti	FFSAA wrote:
#33 Proletheus Aug 22, 2014 7:51:59	seti wrote:
(Reply to #33) seti	Proletheus wrote:
#35 Kalani Aug 22, 2014 9:18:50	seti wrote:
(Reply to #35) seti	Kalani wrote:
#37 FFSAA Aug 22, 2014 9:28:38	seti wrote:
#38 Kalani Aug 22, 2014 9:55:41	FFSAA wrote:
#39 CaptainPicard Aug 22, 2014 11:44:39	The problem with trying to apply "realism" in terms of whether the quarterstaff, or longsword, or scimitar, or whatever should be a finesse weapon or not is that the game clearly doesn't care about realism already in this regard. This can be seen very easily from how the longbow is a weapon that is very good for people with low strength, and it is quite the opposite in reality.   In the real world, strength and speed are directly linked. You can see this if you go and look at videos of montante/greatsword forms; it looks like one would expect a finesse style weapon to be used. However this game, and many other RPGs, allow players to create agile and fast characters who are not very physically powerful, because that is a common trope in fiction and something that people like doing.   There would furthermore be no point in making a quarterstaff universally worse than a military weapon like a spear, even though this is trivially true. This would also apply for many other kobudo weapons specifically mentioned in the text, such as nunchaku or kama, which are adapted farming implements and not something you would use if you can afford a better weapon. However, players like making characters who use these weapons, because the idea of a guy who uses a simple staff but is still a badass is evocative.   My games are not a history lesson, and my players understand that what they create is not necessarily realistic.
#40 DemoMonkey Aug 22, 2014 12:31:36	I've always thought quarterstaff should be on both the simple AND martial weapon lists. With better numbers on the martial list, to represent the fact that (more than most weapons) it is significantly more deadly in the hands of an expert user than an amateur.   Of course that might set a confusing precedent; but perhaps it's an interesting starting point for anyone looking to house rule it.
#41 Dooflegna Aug 22, 2014 14:19:36	DemoMonkey wrote:
#42 Kalani Aug 22, 2014 14:28:37	Dooflegna wrote:
#43 MechaPilot Aug 22, 2014 15:13:16	Finesse seems more like a fighting style concept than it does a weapon property.  I plan to allow players to pick at character creation what attribute modifier they will use to modify their to-hit and damage rolls.  Str indicates a reliance on brute force, Dex implies a fineese-based style, Wis evidences a zen or insight based style, Int illustrates a style based on working out the weaknesses in your enemy's defenses, and Cha shows a style based on deception and feints.
#44 Dooflegna Aug 22, 2014 15:53:21	MechaPilot wrote:
#45 MechaPilot Aug 22, 2014 16:27:29	Dooflegna wrote:
#46 FFSAA Aug 22, 2014 16:31:52	MechaPilot wrote:
#47 MechaPilot Aug 22, 2014 16:45:35	FFSAA wrote:
#48 Shasarak Aug 22, 2014 18:39:45	MechaPilot wrote:
#49 MechaPilot Aug 22, 2014 18:42:57	Shasarak wrote:
#50 Kalani Aug 22, 2014 18:57:05	MechaPilot wrote:
#51 Shasarak Aug 22, 2014 19:00:46	MechaPilot wrote:
#52 MechaPilot Aug 22, 2014 19:02:34	Kalani wrote:
#53 MechaPilot Aug 22, 2014 19:12:53	Shasarak wrote:
#54 Shasarak Aug 22, 2014 20:07:06	MechaPilot wrote:
#55 MechaPilot Aug 22, 2014 20:21:05	Shasarak wrote:
#56 Rastapopoulos Aug 22, 2014 20:21:35	Dooflegna wrote:
(Reply to #56) Chaosmancer	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#58 masterfat78 Aug 22, 2014 21:52:45	MechaPilot wrote:
#59 Kalani Aug 22, 2014 22:22:10	I had to look up the wiki regarding that movie... Having seen the british release, I was not aware that Patrick Stewart narrated the US release. I will need to watch the US release to see how they differ (if at all).   In any case - tangent over?
#60 Brock_Landers Aug 23, 2014 1:25:15	masterfat78 wrote:
#61 Captain_Kobold Aug 23, 2014 7:30:57	Brock_Landers wrote:
#62 Brock_Landers Aug 23, 2014 8:22:19	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#63 Captain_Kobold Aug 23, 2014 15:45:57	Brock_Landers wrote:
#64 Brock_Landers Aug 23, 2014 16:13:08	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#65 Captain_Kobold Aug 23, 2014 16:50:19	Brock_Landers wrote:
#66 Chakravant Aug 23, 2014 16:52:40	FFSAA wrote:
#67 Chakravant Aug 23, 2014 16:56:41	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#68 Rastapopoulos Aug 23, 2014 18:14:44	You guys realize that all this discussion is pretty much irrelevant since the line on how Strength and Dexterity affect the use of any weapon is blurry, right?   I've played games such as Vampire where all attack rolls are made using Dexterity and it never felt to me as it made less sense than using Strength.
#69 MechaPilot Aug 23, 2014 18:38:44	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#70 Captain_Kobold Aug 24, 2014 7:13:54	Chakravant wrote:
#71 Brock_Landers Aug 24, 2014 9:50:14	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#72 Chakravant Aug 24, 2014 14:17:19	Captain_Kobold wrote:
#73 Captain_Kobold Aug 25, 2014 8:07:30	Chakravant wrote:
#74 Chakravant Aug 25, 2014 11:43:57	Oddly enough, my sources put the size of Katsuyoshi's staff closer to his height than that, almost indistinguishable from a modern bo.  Katsuyoshi founded the staff art of Shindo according to my sources as well, so we have some of the maneuvers within the art (although we don't know which ones those are).   The specific maneuver I am referring to (no youtube videos, sorry.  It is a very small and young art, about 20 years old at this point) is very similar to the one you describe, except using more of a pistol/fencing grip, allowing the end of the bo to extend to just underneath the pinky.  It is a relatively slow attack, but it can be performed with surprising speed if "chambered" properly.   Fast twitch fibers are technically a part of strength, yes.  But the typical Strength based checks of D&D are all slow twitch.  Bend bars, lift gates.  Bash this, smash that.  Fast twitch and mushin style movement has always been the paradigm of Dexterity.   At this point, I think we should take this to personal messages if we want to continue the discussion (I'm prefectly amenable).  I don't think we can add much to the public discussion, especially since some people have expressed dismay at attempting to bring this level of real world biomechanics into D&D.