Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Ansalander Sep 01, 2014 14:40:33	Questions:
#2 AtomicPope Sep 01, 2014 15:18:38	Ansalander wrote:
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Sep 01, 2014 15:24:49	Things I can see that you missed: 1) Unless the rogue character has the Dual Wielder feat, he can't fight with a rapier and shortsword at the same time because the rapier is not a light weapon, and you have to use both light weapons to two-weapon fight without that feat.   2) The rogue can either bonus action to disengage or to make the second attack, because two-weapon fighting is a bonus action too, and you can only ever use 1 bonus action each turn.   3) Disengage doesn't actually involve any movement, so the rogue isn't really going to be getting that far away from their target since move in and move back would have to be a total distance of the character's speed or less, so the monster might be able to still attack the rogue despite the attempt to break off.   4) If that rogue character doesn't have someone like that fighter character around to enable the use of sneak attack, then the fighter character is flat-out better - thus it is the fighter to whom the glory of "that sneak attack killed that ogre" goes.
(Reply to #2) AaronOfBarbaria	AtomicPope wrote:
(Reply to #3) Ansalander	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#6 masterfat78 Sep 01, 2014 16:11:38	Ansalander wrote:
#7 SmellyTerror Sep 01, 2014 18:01:24	Notice, though, you've given the rogue their best melee weapon, and the fighter one of their worst. The fighter is specced for defence, while the rogue is for offense. Get that fighter swinging a greatsword with Great Weapon Fighting and give him a warlord's superiority dice, and it's a different story. Fighters can both out-tank AND out damage a Rogue if there are plenty of short rests. Fighters really benefit from them.   Also keep in mind level 3 is where the rogue gets a serious boost to their sneak-attack, while the fighter only gets double crits (which is something, sure, but probably not as good as 1d6 on top of every attack). But at level 5 they get to make two attacks per action. Comparing a level 2 fighter to a level 2 rogue, or a level 5 fighter to a level 5 rogue, the damage is much closer. At level 5, with a short rest to recover, a Fighter can put out 4 greatsword attacks on the first round, then 2 every round after. If they're a Warlord they can add a d8 damage to 4 of those hits. If they've got Great Weapon Fighting then they re-roll 1's and 2's on the damage, which rocks with a 2d6 damage weapon. That's pretty massive damage for someone who still has more hitpoints and AC than the rogue...   I'm a theatre-of-the-mind sort of feller myself, but with a grid it can be hard to prevent enemies getting to a disengaged Rogue. First, the enemy has to actually leave the fighter's reach to get an opportunity attack, not just a square in range. So an enemy can go right around behind the fighter and not take an opportunity attack. Second, you only get one reaction per round, so if three enemies decide to break off from the not-doing-much-damage fighter to nail the pesky murderous rogue, he only gets a single attack against one of them. And a rogue is a LOT squishier than a sword-and-board defensive fighter. Third, enemies can save their action for when the Rogue gets into melee range.   If a Rogue is rolling well, and doing a lot of damage, while the fighter does little, it makes sense that at least some of the baddies will target him, yes?   And finally the Rogue only gets those sneak attack dice if he attacks frontline-enemies. It's quite possible that the enemy killing the rogue is an archer or spellcaster down the back, and the rogue's damage is seriously nerfed vs that target. Frontline enemies also tend to be more heavily armoured.   It's pretty well balanced, IMO.
#8 Veleria Sep 02, 2014 0:59:16	In your mind glory = high damage. That is your opinion. Mage sleeps 6 goblins no glory, fighter stands toe to toe with big monster trading vicious blows no glory. Rogue is a good class for you but you have no idea what glory means for other people.
#9 Dracones Sep 02, 2014 9:48:02	Ansalander wrote:
#10 mellored Sep 02, 2014 13:02:18	Rouges will do more then 1-handed fighters. Rogue will do less then a 2-handed fighter.   Rogue is more agile. Fighter is tougher.
#11 BW0222 Sep 02, 2014 13:35:44	And if the ogre hits the rogue for 16hp of damge? Then what. The rogue goes scuring back to the cleric and hopes for a good heal.   In reality... no character with a 14 AC and 21hp (8+5+5+con) is going to stand in front of an ogre for long. He'll get maybe one set of attacks in before retreating and having to rely on movement and ranged weapons. Even using one attack (with sneak) and then your bonus to disengage... still means the ogre can likely move up and hit you -- or you are so far away you need ranged weapons. Any sane rogue facing an ogre is going to try ambusing it from a tree, set at bear trap and allow them to snipe, or stay in thick woods or darkness where it can snipe, hide, and then move bit. The rogue's primary goal would be to avoid taking damage at all costs.   Sure, in a party with a fighter willing to go four rounds against it toe-to-toe, a wizard able to blind it, and a cleric willing to heal you... maybe you'd be able to get two or three hits from your TWF shortswords for 3d6+dex. However, I'd hardly call this your glory when the fighter took the damage, the wizard provided the sneak attack, and the cleric healed you when you were hit.
#12 Cyber-Dave Sep 02, 2014 14:49:36	Also, lets try and remember, the ogre can ready an action to attack once the rogue dodges in. If the ogre wants to hurt the rogue, it will. When the ogre wants to hurt a character, the fighter can handle that hurt FAR better than the rogue. If the fighter is a two-handed weapon user, it will also be dealing more damage than the rogue. Meanwhile, one handed weapon users or sword and board users can build towards other benefits.
#13 Synjin Sep 02, 2014 15:02:55	BW0222 wrote:
#14 Cyber-Dave Sep 02, 2014 17:23:23	Synjin wrote:
#15 Synjin Sep 02, 2014 18:11:03	Cyber-Dave,   How so? I've qualified my comment with how I have played my Rogues. People are likewise free to play theirs however they wish.
#16 Lawolf Sep 02, 2014 18:49:22	The rogue is significantly weaker than the fighter in all aspects relating to combat (except possibly grapples and shoves due to expertise). The rogue deals much less damage, has lower HP, lower burst, and lacks self healing or damage resistance.The rogue is underpowered right now and should probably have received an Extra Attack feature at level 5 like most weapon users. Even with that change, the rogue would still struggle to keep up with the other classes in single target DPR or survivability.   The rogues numbers simply don't cut it when compared to Great Weapon fighters, paladins, or Barbarians. What little utility the rogue has is easily replicated 10 fold by spells. The rogue sits in an odd middle ground where it loses a lot of combat effectiveness to gain better skill use. Most classes (the 6 primary spellcasters and 2 half casters) gain abilities far more potent than skills without losing much in terms of combat effectiveness.
#17 Cyber-Dave Sep 02, 2014 20:58:07	Synjin wrote:
#18 Gnarl Sep 02, 2014 20:22:07	Lawolf wrote:
#19 Lawolf Sep 02, 2014 20:31:34	Gnarl wrote:
#20 Cyber-Dave Sep 02, 2014 21:02:51	For the record, based on my playtest experience and my own number crunching, I don't agree with Lawolf at all. They were a little behind in damage output during the playtest. The +3d6 sneak attack boost they got fixed that. And, wizards could not completely replace rogues via spellcasting, even in the playtest, and a lot of the utility spells got downgraded with the official release. I have, recently, found myself disagreeing with Lawolf's opinion at every turn. Just my 2 cents!
#21 Lawolf Sep 02, 2014 21:13:57	Cyber-Dave wrote:
#22 GladiusLegis Sep 02, 2014 22:39:49	A pure Rogue with a rapier lags substantially behind the Great Weapon Fighter, but it's about even with the Dueling Fighter. And snagging 5 Fighter levels (and taking Dueling) brings the rapier Rogue build back up close to the Great Weapon Fighter. Which is ... pretty much as it should be, really. Also, the DPR analyses out there (including mine, admittedly) leave out the fact that a Rogue can get his Sneak Attack on reaction attacks (OAs, Sentinel, Commander's Strike) since SA is 1/turn, NOT 1/round, which means he's still very much a presence despite the lower on-turn DPR.   What I'm REALLY going to call BS on, though, is the assertion that spells obsolete the Rogue's skills, Reliabe Talent and Expertise at higher levels. Not the case at all. And the assertion that "anyone proficient in Perception and Stealth is good enough" is also garbage.   And a HUGE lol at lumping the Rogue in with the Ranger, overall. Get outta here.
#23 Lawolf Sep 02, 2014 23:00:39	GladiusLegis wrote:
(Reply to #23) GladiusLegis	Lawolf wrote:
#25 Cyber-Dave Sep 03, 2014 0:01:35	Lawolf wrote:
(Reply to #23) Ashrym	Lawolf wrote:
#27 Lawolf Sep 03, 2014 8:33:29	GladiusLegis wrote:
#28 Gnarl Sep 03, 2014 8:43:54	Lawolf wrote:
#29 abanathie Sep 03, 2014 8:46:09	Cyber-Dave wrote:
#30 mellored Sep 03, 2014 8:49:19	Lawolf wrote:
#31 FFSAA Sep 03, 2014 8:54:30	Gnarl wrote:
#32 Gnarl Sep 03, 2014 9:17:07	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #27) Ashrym	Lawolf wrote:
#34 mellored Sep 03, 2014 12:21:59	Ashrym wrote:
#35 mellored Sep 03, 2014 12:27:52	FFSAA wrote:
#36 Mistwell Sep 03, 2014 12:36:12	Cyber-Dave wrote:
(Reply to #34) Ashrym	mellored wrote:
#38 autolycus Sep 03, 2014 13:18:34	One dragon sorcerer/cleric with wings and a ring of invisibility could fly invisibly while casting silence.   I'm sure there is one of thse in every backwater village!
#39 Lawolf Sep 03, 2014 13:29:42	Ashrym wrote:
(Reply to #38) Ashrym	autolycus wrote:
(Reply to #39) Ashrym	Lawolf wrote:
#42 Gnarl Sep 03, 2014 15:44:50	Lawolf wrote:
#43 Lawolf Sep 03, 2014 16:03:51	Gnarl wrote:
#44 mellored Sep 03, 2014 16:14:38	If the wizard used 2-3 of his spells on skill checks, he would loose to the rogue on damage.   He can't have it both ways.
#45 Lawolf Sep 03, 2014 16:35:37	mellored wrote:
#46 Rummy Sep 04, 2014 0:07:16	Doesn't a halfling rogue with a crossbow and the Sharpshooter feat do a ton of damage?  Also, a one level dip in Fighter yields +2 to hit, which, along with advantage from hiding behind the fighter, takes most of the sting from the -5 to hit, +10 to damage.  The best part is the choice to be uber accurate when needed or to just go for broke against Ogres.   Are you assuming that you will always take the -5 to ht, +10 to damage choice for the GWF?  Lotsa misses without a reliable way to get advantage.
#47 Rummy Sep 04, 2014 0:11:21	Also, can't a Rogue use a wand as a bonus action at 13th level?  That is really freaking handy.
#48 Gnarl Sep 04, 2014 9:34:41	Lawolf wrote:
#49 Dracones Sep 04, 2014 8:46:28	The problem with your lower skill wizard is group checks. A wizard that wants to sneak the party past a sentry is going to need to burn multiple spell slots on multiple invis spells and even then the lower stealth party members will still probably be spotted.   With group checks a well skilled rogue is going to help the entire party get past challenges more easily. In 5e skills really are better than spells.
#50 mellored Sep 04, 2014 9:53:20	Rummy wrote:
#51 Karnos Sep 04, 2014 10:20:31	Someone posts a flavor of this thread every other day.   Question:  If I take the class with the best survivability, and compare it to a class with significantly less survivability, and exclude survivability from the comparison, the class with the best survivability comes up short!  What gives?   Answer: If you think survivability is unimportant and irrelevant, then don't play a fighter!  Problem solved.
(Reply to #49) Ashrym	Dracones wrote:
(Reply to #50) Rummy	mellored wrote:
#54 N4M8- Sep 05, 2014 0:20:40	Ashrym wrote:
#55 mellored Sep 05, 2014 6:54:37	Rummy wrote:
#56 Cyber-Dave Sep 05, 2014 7:55:15	The only way Sharpshooter is useful on a rogue is if you multiclass 5 levels of some class that gives you a second attack. If you do that, your first attack should be made without the sharpshooter damage bonus. If you hit, deal sneak attack. Then, your second attack should be made with the sharpshooter modifications. If your first attack misses, make your second attack without the sharpshooter modifications. That will increase your DPR. It, however, requires 5 levels of either a paladin, ranger, or fighter.
(Reply to #56) 1eejit	Cyber-Dave wrote:
#58 GladiusLegis Sep 05, 2014 8:52:44	Sharpshooter is useful on a Lv. 17+ Assassin, since it gets doubled along with everything else. Still wouldn't take it without Skulker, though.
(Reply to #54) Ashrym	N4M8- wrote: