Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 biopsiNC Sep 22, 2014 0:48:09	Hi all,   After reading through the new MM this weekend  I started thinking about the breakdown of saving throws.  Which save is the most common, or are they evenly distributed between the Big 3 (Con, Dex, Wis)? To answer this question I have done a simple tally of all of the monster stat blocks in the MM that call for at least 1 saving throw.   My methods: There are about 199 monsters in the MM that have at least 1 saving throw listed. (Note: I did not include the large number of monsters that have a grapple attack since escaping from grapple is not a saving throw.) For each monster I then tallied the type of save. Some monsters have multiple attacks/effects that require a save. In these cases I put each in the appropriate category. For monsters that can call for multiple saves in the same category (ex. Beholder has rays that include 3 Wis, 2 Con, 4 Dex, 1 Str) I tallied them only once for each category (so Beholder gets tallies in 4 categories). I did not include the saves for spells listed in the stat block (far too lazy for that). I cannot claim my numbers are perfect but they should be pretty close.   Results: I found 253 saving throws in the new MM. Of those, 86 are Con saves (34.0%), 57 are Dex saves (22.5%), 52 are Wis saves (20.6%), 52 are Str saves (20.6%), 4 are Cha saves (1.6%), and only 2 are Int saves (0.8%).   Conclusions: Proficiency with Con saves might be more useful than the others. Of course this analysis does not take into account the impact of a failed save - some are clearly more impactful than others.   Useless factoid: I also determined the average CR of the monsters for each save type. Str saves - CR 5.6; Con saves - CR 8.1; Dex saves - CR 10.1; Wis saves - CR 12.6; Int saves - CR 4.5; Cha saves - CR 4.3. The sample size of Int and Cha saves is so small as to be very useless. The others have such a wide CR range I'm not sure if it means anything. Perhaps PCs will see a preponderance of Str and Con saves at lower levels, with more Dex and Wis saves showing up at higher levels? I'm too lazy to parse the data further.
#2 mellored Sep 22, 2014 5:06:33	biopsiNC wrote:
#3 Zardnaar Sep 22, 2014 6:35:06	mellored wrote:
#4 Lawolf Sep 22, 2014 8:57:08	For the most part, Str saves resist falling prone. You do not need to worry as much about Str saves.    Dex saves resist damage primarily. This is useful, but you are probably better off going Con to not only resist damage (by having more HP), but also having a higher chance to resist harmful con save effects (usually poisoned).   Wis saves are probably the worst saves to fail as they tend to incapacitate your PC in some manner (charm, frighten, paralyze, etc). If your class doesn't have proficiency in Wis saves, you need to take Resilient (Wisdom) at 12th level. (5es first feat tax yay!)
#5 FFSAA Sep 22, 2014 8:42:34	mellored wrote:
#6 mellored Sep 22, 2014 8:55:36	FFSAA wrote:
#7 Slyck314 Sep 22, 2014 9:01:58	What are the Int and Cha savs? It seems to me these, though few, are often the most deadly.
#8 FFSAA Sep 22, 2014 9:52:13	Slyck314 wrote:
(Reply to #7) biopsiNC	Slyck314 wrote:
#10 ClockworkNecktie Sep 22, 2014 10:04:26	Another thing to keep in mind is that a lot of monsters cast spells, which (I assume) aren't reflected in these numbers.
#11 Mistwell Sep 22, 2014 10:45:18	FFSAA wrote:
#12 Sword_of_Spirit Sep 22, 2014 11:00:54	I don't think we can really compare without including spells. Wisdom saves, for instance, are probably a lot more prevalent in spells. Con and Str saves are going to be higher in the MM, because lots of relatively simple monsters are going to have poison and knockdown sorts of effects.   And of course, if your DM uses NPC spellcasters that actually have PC-like features and/or substitutes in different spells, we'll see a lot more spells in use.   So I think this is really interesting, but analysis can't really be done without including spells listed in the stat blocks, as well as all spells in the PHB.
#13 FFSAA Sep 22, 2014 11:21:58	Mistwell wrote:
#14 Mistwell Sep 22, 2014 11:43:25	FFSAA wrote:
#15 h347h50 Sep 22, 2014 11:53:00	Mistwell wrote:
#16 Ahglock Sep 22, 2014 12:25:37	Int sucks for non wizards. Weak skills, it does nothing on its own, worst saves.
(Reply to #16) Sword_of_Spirit	Ahglock wrote:
(Reply to #17) Sailing_Pirate_Ryan	Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
(Reply to #13) caecafortuna	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #19) Sailing_Pirate_Ryan	caecafortuna wrote:
#21 biopsiNC Sep 22, 2014 20:26:43	Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
#22 Zardnaar Sep 22, 2014 20:34:16	I have seen a saving throw for spells list somewhere around. Was it ENworld or here is the question.
#23 FallingIcicle Sep 22, 2014 22:36:34	biopsiNC wrote:
#24 Strill Sep 22, 2014 23:03:42	Sailing_Pirate_Ryan wrote:
#25 Georlik Sep 22, 2014 23:32:37	Thank you for the effort you put into this analysis.
#26 Sword_of_Spirit Sep 23, 2014 0:19:48	biopsiNC wrote:
#27 thespaceinvader Sep 23, 2014 0:59:43	ClockworkNecktie wrote:
#28 Rhenny Sep 23, 2014 3:50:57	Interesting...you know that optional part in the rules that mentions a more flexible proficiency use for making action checks?   What if it were extended to saves?   Player choice for some saves...like Charisma could be used for Wisdom when it is a mind effect.    To me it makes sense that a person with strong self image and confidence would resist fear or even the attempt to charm.   To me, Wisdom and Charisma overlap a bit anyway.   Just a thought...maybe for another thread.   Anyway, thanks BiopsiNC for the information.  Good stuff.
(Reply to #28) Timborama	Rhenny wrote:
#30 AH_schulerta Sep 23, 2014 8:48:34	biopsiNC wrote:
#31 Ahglock Sep 23, 2014 12:04:34	Sword_of_Spirit wrote: