Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 akaddk Jul 23, 2014 17:08:54	On the issue of saving throws, we've only seen a small number, however there seems to be an indication that this number is fairly representative of the whole from what we can garner from leaks and looser lipped alpha testers. The idea that a wizard, for instance, could carry around a ready arsenal to target specific saving throws is generally seen as a con because it can essentially bypass the difficulty of an encounter and puts too much power in the hands of the wizard player.   So I've been wondering about saving throws and after reading through discussions on it, I've decided that I'll probably end up using "as appropriate" saves rather than "as expected". What I mean by this is that spell descriptions and anything else that tells me what save to use will be considered merely suggestions. If I, as the DM, feel that the situation warrants using Dexterity for a save instead of Constitution, for instance, then I'll bloody well use Dexterity.   Go ahead, theorycraft me.
#2 ChrisTheS Jul 23, 2014 17:59:06	I'll take you one step further: there are times when it would be more appropriate for an effect to be an attack roll than a saving throw, and vice versa.
#3 Spekke- Jul 23, 2014 18:02:53	Seems like you are sending mixed signals.   Have you actually decided this or are you looking for feedback? I'm going to assume you are looking for feedback but if this is how you've already decided to play then go ahead. Every table's way of playing is right.   Are you doing this to punish spellcasters? If I choose to be a wizard I generally start from the premise that s/he is prone to using that high Int score for something like outsmarting foes. This means that as a player in control of a wizard I would try to find and target the chinks in the enemy creature's defenses as often as possible. Your idea would seem to deliberately block what I imagine is a common playstyle. My issue is that this seems like it would pit the DM against the player instead of the creature against the wizard. At a certain point I envision a metagame developing where the wizard announces the spell he plans to use and then in the same breath tries to quickly convince the DM why a certain save should be used. On the upside that means that a clever player could use a SINGLE combat spell to target different saving throws instead of having to memorize many combat spells for the same effect.   Is there a specific example you have in mind?
#4 Novacat Jul 23, 2014 18:14:05	If my DM tried to pull that, he'd be down a player just that quickly. If I'm a wizard, and I'm careful to prepare a variety of spells, and selected the one I feel best suited for the situation, only for my DM to ignore those efforts, I wouldn't put up with it.
#5 Azzy1974 Jul 23, 2014 18:25:40	Situational rules changes seem appropriate when in the appropiate situation.... I dunno, I'm seeing nothing wrong with that approach.
#6 Polaris Jul 23, 2014 18:39:51	Oberoni.  If targeted saving throws are a problem (and IMO they are) in 5e, then saying, "The DM can arrange it so they aren't"  is not a valid defense of a problematic mechanic.   -Polaris
#7 Psikerlord Jul 23, 2014 19:06:23	akaddk wrote:
#8 Karnos Jul 23, 2014 19:09:54	Polaris wrote:
#9 Polaris Jul 23, 2014 19:58:36	Karnos wrote:
#10 Caliburn101. Jul 24, 2014 3:55:47	I would use bespoke saves in bespoke circumstances.   For instance - the Ogres of Bron Mabon in my homebrew were messed round with by Arch-Fae in their history.   They have much higher Cha than their normal cousins and use this for Wis saves against enchantments.   This is however an apsect of their makeup available for research from various lore sources in my game, so won't be a surprise to any casters if they have done the homework.   No homework? Well, they can chew on it and find out the hard way!   'Bepoke'ism' however will be niche and rare in my games, and I wouldn't advocate the approach the OP suggests. It's unfair to the players.
#11 Emerikol. Jul 24, 2014 4:08:25	Polaris wrote:
#12 Mephi1234 Jul 24, 2014 5:15:32	How is this a problem?    The DM controls the NPCs, so they have whatever stats are necessary at the time.    Its not like the players can tell a cultist in a robe throwing a fireball at them is a bard, eldritch knight, light cleric, wizard, warlock, sorcerer, spell thief, or the like off hand.   Its not like the characters have access to the Monster Manual and what they have good and bad saves in.   They'll have to make an appropriate guess based on how the target is acting.    And that ties into your "as appropriate" as well - they'll be picking appropriate attacks for how the target is acting.   Back row casters tend to be weaker, physically, so they'll pick appropriate spells that deal with physical reactions.    Front line melee will be physically strong or agile, usually; targeting their minds is a good option.    Gishes tend to be "jacks of all, masters of none;" their spread out focus leaves them needing to spread out their training more - they're not as physically strong as a melee, nor as mentally resistant as a pure caster, but middling.    Agile gishes get hit with Str or Con appropriate saves.   Those in heavy armor get hit with Dex-appropriate saves.   Either could be struck with mind-affecting powers, though harder to guess a mental weakness.      And the same goes for monsters.   Does it look big and slow?   Quick and agile?   Smart and/or magical?      If you're fighting cranium rats - small quick animals with magic powers - my instinct is to reach for something with a Strength or Constitution based save AoE, because those are the kinds of spells that are appropriate to resist with brute force of some kind.      An undead knight?   Spells that rely on dodging seems the best option.   I wouldn't want to test a mind affecting power on the undead.       Its all guess work here.    So long as you don't change the Attribute save randomly to something strange just to make the save (which is unfair), it seems that we're all roughly in the same boat.   Using Charisma to resist a Dominate seems fair enough to me - they're both willpower.   But someone strong in Charisma saves is a caster, which tend to have strong wisdom saves anyways, making it a bad choice in the first place!
(Reply to #9) kanageddaamen	Polaris wrote:
#14 Spekke- Jul 24, 2014 9:02:14	Saves failing to keep up with DCs will affect players the same as it will affect creatures. All this means is that magic will become more powerful at higher levels. That's GREAT news! In 4e everything scaled up perfectly (in an ideal world) with character leveling making advancement largely meaningless.
#15 jaelis Jul 24, 2014 9:31:38	Back to the OP: if you play it fairly, this seem perfectly reasonable. But that means that if the players can arrange a situation where it makes more sense for fireball to target Con than Dex, you should have it target Con regardless of whether the monsters are ogres or elves. So the players should be able to use it to their advantage just as well as the monsters do.