Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Chakrum May 12, 2015 17:34:59	So I was perusing another website and all I kept seeing was threads decrying how the 5E saving throw system was broken at higher levels. I haven't been past level 6 yet so I haven't experienced this personally and I haven't heard this complaint from anyone in the store. So is it true or exaggerated?
#2 CCS May 12, 2015 18:22:54	So far my own opinion is that saves are set a bit weak.
#3 arnwolf666 May 12, 2015 18:27:27	Use the 2E or 3E or another combination.  It is very easy to tweak saves if you don't like them.  2E concept was that saves were easy to pass at high levels.  Later editions varied.
#4 Rains May 12, 2015 18:49:06	Chakrum wrote:
#5 AaronOfBarbaria May 12, 2015 19:38:37	It is more likely, in my opinion, that it is the expectation people whom say saves are broken have that is actually the problem, rather than that the save mechanics don't actually work as intended by their design. Usually, people that complain about saves are complaining that their nonproficient saves don't improve, but they are ignoring that they can improve their saves and that they are meant to still face lower CR enemies with lower save DCs even at higher level.
#6 mellored May 12, 2015 20:15:24	at higher level your strengths and weaknesses are more pronounced, but you have more tricks as well. also, many people put resources into dealing maximum damage, ignore defense, then complain when their 8 Int get's targeted.
#7 Zardnaar May 12, 2015 20:20:48	Basically ou have a 10-11 point difference between a good save and a bad save. Makes hititting bad saves with spell effects o whatever easy. Every good dsave you get is also a primary ability in most cases so with a 20 whatever eventually you end up with +11 vs -1 in your worst save.  And the saving throws usefulness varies widely strength is almost as good as dex saves and the fighter more or less has the best saves in the game except for the Paladin. Rogues and Wizards also have crap saves. If you want good saves you have a feat tax or class tax for the most part. Most spell casters also suck at concentration rolls so if you want to use those spells or buff resiliant or warcaster become feat taxes. Sorcerer (Favoured Soul) with the life domain is the best buffer in the game as they are proficient in con saves, can cast bless which helps their concentration saves and can twin haste, gretaer invisability and stoneskin.     This is one reason we have been using 4d6 drop the lowest and not the default stat array. You can usually get better scores. Saves are almost worse than 3.x games unless those games have a blatant powergamer in them cheesing out save DCs.
(Reply to #7) AaronOfBarbaria	Zardnaar wrote:
#9 lawrencehoy May 12, 2015 21:23:35	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#10 Zardnaar May 12, 2015 21:31:36	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#11 OnionDruid May 12, 2015 21:39:30	The issue is that if you don't focus in an ability score that a save will target, then as you level and get better, your chances of making a save in those other ability scores actually decrease over time. This makes it easier to fail a save that targets your non-focus score at level 20 than at level 1. At level 1 say the fighter has a cha save of +1. There really isn't ever a reason to raise cha on a fighter, ever, without purposely minimizing your fighter ability (even when you aren't specifically min/maxing). At level 1 that level 1 spell will have a save of 13. At level 20 that same level 1 spell will have a save of 19....+++ Because DCs scale with level and (usually) 4/6 saves does not... It is easy to see why the saving throw system is broken.+++ Do note that most people look at a PC (Caster) versus PC wwn it comes to this math and stuff. I haven't seen every DC for each monster in the monster manual but I'm sure as level increases so does the DC. I'm not a fan of PC v/s PC interaction but it would have been nice if the math evened out. +++
#12 MechaPilot May 12, 2015 21:47:29	OnionDruid wrote:
#13 Chakrum May 12, 2015 23:14:41	So it's the non-scaling saves in non-proficient attributes people are worried about. What are the most common saves and do classes without them have counters. Examples like a grappled wizard may fail the check most of the time but could cast misty step or even thunder wave to escape from it. To me it promotes balance in party design to overcome individual weakness. Isn't that a good thing?
#14 Zardnaar May 12, 2015 23:33:57	Chakrum wrote:
#15 edwin_su May 13, 2015 0:24:12	Chakrum wrote:
(Reply to #10) AaronOfBarbaria	Zardnaar wrote:
#17 Chakrum May 13, 2015 1:03:42	How many insta - death spells are in the game and are they very common place at higher levels? And could any of those be countered by having a balanced group? I'm feeling that most of the problems would lie in poor character building leaving huge weaknesses followed by a lack of group cohesion and suddenly the game seems like saves are broken . The reality is even if the character dies at higher levels they can be resurrected anyway. Maybe better character building and group planning is the intention all along?
#18 Razintarr May 13, 2015 1:04:38	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #18) AaronOfBarbaria	Razintarr wrote:
#20 edwin_su May 13, 2015 1:36:25	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#21 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 2:49:43	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#22 Razintarr May 13, 2015 3:29:50	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #20) AaronOfBarbaria	edwin_su wrote:
(Reply to #22) AaronOfBarbaria	Razintarr wrote:
#25 Mephi1234 May 13, 2015 5:22:24	OnionDruid wrote:
#26 QwertyAzerty May 13, 2015 6:05:32	I feel this is an other of those:   Rock complain that paper is OP, but scissor is fine as it is Paper complain that scissor is OP but Rock if fine as it is Scissor complain that Rock if OP but Paper is fine as it is.   My wizard got low AC so I'm complaining monster got to high attack bonus and deal too much damage My rogue trying to shoot an arrow to a full plate + shield guard complain that the AC are too high My fighter with 8 wisdom complain that the wizard DC on wisdom spell is too high The wizard using a constitution check against a fighter complain the fighter Constitution save is too high.
#27 mellored May 13, 2015 6:27:49	QwertyAzerty wrote:
#28 Byakugan01 May 13, 2015 7:24:40	So a serial killer says to the cops...man I don't get why you guys are angry I fried my neighbors kidney up in a skillet...   15  14  13  12  10  8 for something like 90%-95% of the people that play the game.          VS 18  17  16  14  13  10 for like a 1 in 2000 roll, out of a tiny fraction of people that actually use rolls in the first place.  Can you say non-representative sample?  You have 3x the starting ability bonuses of people not from Planet Krypton.  You are like that one guy -ever- in the history of DnD that played a Fochluchan Lyrist organic from first level to 20, with vow of poverty for funsies.  You survived Tomb of Horrors with a blindfold on.   You aren't choosing to put points in defensive stats, you are starting with beyond normal maximum stats...there is a difference.   But alas, you already knew that.   As far as how many save or die spells there are...for PCs there is a grand total of 1, Quivering Palm....For NPCs there several 'fail twice and you die' effects...They seemingly went to great lengths to only give NPCs kill effects.....except for effectively contagion which probably was an unintended error.   It isn't -as- deadly as 3e/PF, btu the same general rule applies....at high levels a failed Con save just kills you, but a failed wisdom save kills your whole party.
#29 bawylie May 13, 2015 7:55:09	White room assessment. Dismiss.    Take precautions, play intelligently, protect your allies.   Saves are a last resort.
#30 Orethalion May 13, 2015 8:04:40	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#31 UngeheuerLich May 13, 2015 8:11:59	1. I believe saving throws work well enough as they are. A 12 point difference is much, but it usually is your own fault not to raise bad stats. 2. When feats are not used, improving a low stat to lower the difference is reasonable. 3. Animals have terrible int saves and are easily overcome by phantasmal force... so it is more unfair for monsters than for PCs 4. Maybe a feat, that grants half proficiency bonus to non proficient saves would be ok. I am not sure if it would be a feat tax, but I guess no. After all it is just a +3 bonus to few saves. 5. Maybe increasing a stat up to 12 should only cost 1 point of stat increases for 2 ability points. This would help balance ability score increases.
(Reply to #28) AaronOfBarbaria	Byakugan01 wrote:
(Reply to #30) AaronOfBarbaria	Orethalion wrote:
#34 Orethalion May 13, 2015 8:23:46	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #34) AaronOfBarbaria	Orethalion wrote:
#36 Orethalion May 13, 2015 8:27:39	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#37 Orethalion May 13, 2015 8:28:31	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#38 Finieous May 13, 2015 8:36:50	A variant human with the standard array can begin with 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 at 1st level. With 5 ASIs, he can end up with 16, 14, 14, 14, 14, 12. Assume his proficient saves are +9 and +8, two non-proficient saves are +2, and one is +1. He still has relative strengths and weaknesses, obviously, but frankly that seems desirable. Presumably he has comrades whose strengths and weaknesses balance his.   You can make characters like this. My 7th-level tempest cleric has Str 14, Dex 14, Con 16, Wis 14, Int 8, Cha 10, with Resilient (Con), so he's well on his way.
#39 Chakrum May 13, 2015 8:37:55	To the example of the whole party being defeated by dominate. When fighting they would have advantage on saves vs the charm effect. Protection from evil and good, a very common 1st level spell usable by many classes could protect from it or allow new saves. Also, counters pell could have stopped it as a reaction. But it sounds like the players weren't prepared at all for these effects. And you know what, that is ok. They got whooped and hopefully learn for next time. Isn't that apart of the D&D tradition. Learn by failure and have great stories to tell, even if the story is about a defeat?
#40 FFSAA May 13, 2015 8:51:23	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#41 Orethalion May 13, 2015 8:55:58	Finieous wrote:
#42 Finieous May 13, 2015 9:13:16	Orethalion wrote:
#43 mellored May 13, 2015 9:14:49	UngeheuerLich wrote:
#44 mellored May 13, 2015 9:17:20	How much variance do people think is good?   12 points? 10 points? 8 points? 6 points? 4 points?   Should it increase as you level?
#45 Orethalion May 13, 2015 9:26:48	Finieous wrote:
(Reply to #37) AaronOfBarbaria	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #40) SleepsInTraffic	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #45) AaronOfBarbaria	Orethalion wrote:
#49 Orethalion May 13, 2015 9:42:44	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#50 ChrisCarlson May 13, 2015 9:46:52	SleepsInTraffic wrote:
#51 Devilbass May 13, 2015 10:10:27	It also seems as though some are looking at the modifiers as the the only aspect what makes a character good at saving throws.  I would argue that despite having lower numbers in weak saves, most characters will gain some kind of help from their class abilities.  For the following, when I say something is a 'boost'  I don't necessarily mean numerically;  I mean to say that the save in question is effectively stronger than the numbers may indicate.  Let us consider:   Barabarian:  All barbs get Danger Sense which shores up their Dex saves a bit in a number of situations (advantage on DEX saves vs effects you can see).  Additionally, Path of the Berserker gains Mindless Rage, which makes them immune to being charmed or frightened while raging.  This definitely will negate a number of Wis saves, as those are relatively common effects.  So barbs get a little love in their weak saves.   Bard:  Bards don't gain any specific abilites to help them out on their saves, but they can help everyone else adding a d6 to a svae isn't negligiable, neither is a d12, which the Bardic Inspiration die eventually becomes.  Not trivial is also the fact that Bards can gain access to Bless and Counterspell through their Magical Secrets.  Counterspell has the disadvantage that it will only negate saves from spells (as it negates the entire spell), but it has the advantage that it completely negates having to make a save in the first place (I know it won't always work).   Cleric:  Though it is not a guaranteed buff, and it does consume a resource and concentration, Bless is not inisignificant in this debate.  While situational, it is powerful, even at higher levels, as adding a small bonus to multiple people's saves (including your own if you wish) will often have a noteiceable effect.   Druid:  Circle of the Land druids have Land's Stride which grants advantage on saves against magically created/manipulated plants which hamper movement, a slight boost, but still, a help with some Str saves.  On t[op of that, though, is the Nature's Ward ability.  This makes you immune to charm or fear by fey, as well as completely immune to poison and disease, a very situational bump to Wis saves, and a significant boost to Con saves, as a number of common effects from them no longer concern you at all.  Circle of the Moon druids have a number of good Wildshape options, most of which have pretty good Str scores, and often Con as well.  While Wildshaped, the druid retains their own proficiencies, and retain their mental stats, so their proficient saves are completely unaffected.  Meanwhile, they quite likely are seeing an increase to their Str and possibly Con - though to be fair, their Dex is just as likely to go down.  All in all, I still think that they have more of a bump to saves this way than a loss.   Fighter:  Fighters have Indomitable.  It is a minor benefit towards saves, but it is a benefit nonetheless.  The extra Ability Score Increases also give the fighter more opportunity to shore up weak spots, another minor benefit.   Monk:  Evasion is a boost to an already good save, but bears mentioning nonetheless as it is powerful.  At the same time a monk gains Evasion, they gain Stillness of Mind, which doesn't technically boost any saves or grant immunity or anything, allows you to END effects that have you charmed or frightened.  This ability clearly belongs in the analysis.  Next up is Purity of Body.  This ability grants immunity to poison and disease - Con saves have just been made a geat deal less frightening.  Then the icing on the cake: Dimaond Soul grants proficiency in all saves.  I'm not even going to look at the rest of the monk abilities.  They're totally fine.   Paladin:  Probably the class that is best off for saves except the monk.  Paladins gain access to that lovely spell Bless.  At the same time they gain Divine Health and are immune to disease.  Then comes Aura of Protection which allows the paladin to add his or her Cha modifier to all saves.  This is a big benefit, even if you never put your Cha past a 15 or a 16, that's a nice little bump.  Add on top of that the fact that nearby allies also gain this benefit.  Aura of Devotion from the Oath of Devotion adds immunity to being charmed (while concious).  Paladin is looking pretty good, as are his friends if they stay close.   Ranger:  Rangers are actually one of the classes that needs the most help in this respect.  They don't have any core class abilities other than Land's Stride to boost saves in any way, and that ability helps a save that Ranger's are already proficient in.  The Hunter can choose Steel Will which grants advantage on saves vs. fear.  The Hunter can also select Evasion, but again this is a boost to an already proficient save.  Of course, there is Protection from Poison, a ranger spell that grants advantage on saves against being posioned, but this is situational and competes for the number of spells a ranger knows.   Rogue:  Evasion is good, but doesn't help out the weak saves.  Slippery Mind however is good, as it grants proficiency in Wis saves.  Like the fighter, rogues also gain more Ability Score Increases, and so have the opportunity to shore up weak spots a little.  So the rogue could use a little love too, but they're not left out in the cold.   Sorceror:  Draconic sorcerors don't really seem to get anything to boost their weak saves.  There are certainly some spells that will come in handy to get around having to make a save, or getting out of a sticky situation once a save has been failed, but that seems to be about it.  Wild sorcerors on the other hand have Tides of Chaos which allows them to gain advantage on a save if they so choose.  Additionally, they gain Bend Luck, which allows the sorceror roll a d4 and add the result to another creature's save for the cost of a few sorcery points.  The standout spell for a sorceror in avoiding making saves is Counterspell.  With any luck, a sorceror will be able to avoid a number of saves by completely negating the spell which birings them on.  I really don't think the usefullness of Counterspell can be under-stated here.   Warlock:  Another calss that doesn't seem to get much help with their weak saves.  One exception is the Fiend warlock.  They gain the Dark One's Own Luck ability, which allows them to add a d10 to a save once per rest.  Not a bad ability at all, but only for some warlocks, some of the time.  Like the sorceror, the warlock can make good use of Counterspell and a few other spells may come in handy towards this end.   Wizard:  No core class abilities (if you exclude spells) that affect weak saves.  The Abjurer, on the other hand, will be making much better use of Counterspell than anybody via their Improved Abjuration ability.  Diviners gain the Portent ability, which allows them to use a previously rolled d20 for saving throw roll with if they so wish.  Not bad if you've rolled high on that d20.  Greater Portent just sweetens the deal.  Transmuters can create a Transmuter's Stone which can be used by anyone the transmuter wishes.  One of the abilities the stone can grant is proficiency in Con saves.  As with most of the spell-casting classes, there are a few spells that will help either avoid a save, or lessen the effects of a failed save.  Really, I think the wizard is okay.  They may be more likely to suffer from effects that aren't spells, but counterspell should let them avoid a good number of saves all together.   So after all that long-winded (but still brief considering the breadth of material) analysis, I'd say that things look fine in regards to weak saves.  Yes, at high levels especially, people are going to fail saves, but just about everyone is going to have access to some resource or ability that takes the edge off, or at least offers plenty of help for some relatively common saves.  Let's also not forget that most races have situational help for saving throws as well.   *Thanks to mellored for pointing out the things I missed with the sorceror*
#52 Orethalion May 13, 2015 9:49:48	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
(Reply to #45) Finieous	Orethalion wrote:
#54 Orethalion May 13, 2015 9:53:59	Finieous wrote:
(Reply to #43) UngeheuerLich	mellored wrote:
#56 mellored May 13, 2015 10:02:58	Devilbass wrote:
#57 Finieous May 13, 2015 10:04:57	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #56) Devilbass	mellored wrote:
#59 mellored May 13, 2015 10:07:00	UngeheuerLich wrote:
#60 HoboJustice May 13, 2015 10:07:18	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#61 Orethalion May 13, 2015 10:11:11	Finieous wrote:
#62 HoboJustice May 13, 2015 10:12:30	Devilbass wrote:
(Reply to #61) Finieous	Orethalion wrote:
#64 Chakrum May 13, 2015 10:26:17	So what variance is the game balanced around? Or in other words, how low should your lowest score be and still have a chance to make a save. And does that design include having resources available from either your class features, other classes in the party helping you, and magic items? Because I have a feeling that is exactly what they considered in the design.
(Reply to #62) Devilbass	HoboJustice wrote:
(Reply to #65) Chakrum	Devilbass wrote:
(Reply to #60) AaronOfBarbaria	HoboJustice wrote:
#68 HoboJustice May 13, 2015 11:12:09	Devilbass wrote:
#69 HoboJustice May 13, 2015 11:22:56	Chakrum wrote:
#70 HoboJustice May 13, 2015 11:35:23	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#71 Orethalion May 13, 2015 11:56:10	Finieous wrote:
#72 edwin_su May 13, 2015 12:42:13	Orethalion wrote:
#73 Orethalion May 13, 2015 12:54:03	edwin_su wrote:
(Reply to #71) Finieous	Orethalion wrote:
#75 Orethalion May 13, 2015 13:14:39	Finieous wrote:
#76 mellored May 13, 2015 13:18:45	Orethalion wrote:
#77 edwin_su May 13, 2015 13:21:37	Orethalion wrote:
#78 edwin_su May 13, 2015 13:25:09	mellored wrote:
#79 Rhenny May 13, 2015 13:28:13	I like the current variance.   It encourages party diversity and gives players a reason to protect or defend others in the face of different challenges.   Honestly, looking back at OD&D, I think the way Gygax had strange categories of saving throws with different classes having different bonuses for what seemed almost arbitrary (each class getting better at saves at different levels, each class having some stronger saves and some weaker saves), was actually part of his genius.   It made min-maxing less possible and required parties to diversify if they wanted to survive the long haul.
#80 edwin_su May 13, 2015 13:32:09	edwin_su wrote:
#81 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 13:45:44	mellored wrote:
#82 Orethalion May 13, 2015 13:48:07	edwin_su wrote:
#83 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 13:50:39	Rhenny wrote:
#84 Orethalion May 13, 2015 13:51:48	Zardnaar wrote:
#85 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 14:04:23	Orethalion wrote:
#86 LordTwig May 13, 2015 17:28:31	I have read this entire thread and have been thinking about it a lot and the game seems fine the way it is. Is it possible, or even likely, that you will have one save at +11 and another at -1? Yes, at level 20. But I don't think it breaks the game.   At higher levels you would have learned to off-set your lowest saves or you wouldn't have made it to level 20 in the first place. Even without a "20 is an auto success" rule it is very rare that you won't have at least a chance to succeed. Compared to 3.x (which I am most familiar with) where it was pretty common due to sky high DCs that you could only succeed on a 20 because of the "20 is an auto success" rule. I prefer to have a few auto fail rolls than a bunch of "only on a 20" rolls.   I also went and looked at some of my characters, all made with point buy or standard array. Their saves seem okay to me.   Sample Characters Human Fighter Str 16 +3 (15 base, +1 race) Dex 14 +2 (13 base, +1 race) Con 14 +2 (13 base, +1 race) Int 12 +1 (11 base, +1 race) Wis 13 +1 (12 base, +1 race) Cha 10 +0 (9 base, +1 race) Increases: +2 Str, +2 Con, Resistance feat +1 Wis, +2 Str, then? Proficient Saves: Str, Con. Eventually Wis.   Human Wizard Str 9 (-1) (8 base, +1 race) Dex 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 race) Con 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 race) Int 16 (+3) (15 base, +1 race) Wis 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 race) Cha 12 (+1) (11 base, +1 race) Increases: +2 Int, +2 Int, +2 Con, +2 Dex, then? Proficient Saves: Int, Wis.   Elf Rogue STR 12 (+1) (12 base) DEX 17 (+3) (15 base, +2 race) CON 12 (+1) (12 base) INT 10 (+0) (10 base) WIS 14 (+2) (13 base, +1 race) CHA 11 (+0) (11 base) Increases: +1 Dex and Cha, +2 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Int, then? Proficient Saves: Dex, Int. Eventually Wis.   Dwarf Paladin Str 17 (+3) (15 base, +2 race) Dex 8 (-1) (8 base) Con 15 (+2) (13 base, +2 race) Int 10 (+0) (10 base) Wis 12 (+1) (12 base) Cha 14 (+2) (14 base) Increases: +1 Str and Con, +2 Cha, +2 Str, +2 Dex, then? Proficient Saves: Wis, Cha. Eventually + Cha bonus to everything.   Elf Ranger Str 12 +1 (12 base) Dex 16 +3 (14 base, +2 race) Con 13 +1 (13 base) Int 10 +0 (10 base) Wis 16 +3 (15 base, +1 race) Cha 8 -1 (8 base) Increases: +2 Dex, Resistance feat +1 Con, +2 Dex, +2 Wis, then? Proficient Saves: Str, Dex. Eventually Con.
#87 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 17:41:20	LordTwig wrote:
#88 Orethalion May 13, 2015 18:16:27	Zardnaar wrote:
#89 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 19:06:00	Orethalion wrote:
#90 Orethalion May 13, 2015 20:10:01	Zardnaar wrote:
#91 Zardnaar May 13, 2015 21:02:32	Orethalion wrote:
#92 lawrencehoy May 13, 2015 21:56:47	FFSAA wrote:
#93 Kentus May 14, 2015 1:19:15	I like the save system in 5e. Even if it becomes harder to save later on, in the end there are several ways to endure, reverse or prevent the effects of failed saves and Intelligence saves and Charisma saves (often dumped abilities) are very tragic to fail in many cases. Long time since I got regularly fighters with decent stats there, who don't feel underpowered, at my table.   The best thing is the actual reliability of spells for player characters. Since only few monsters have proficiency in saves, the players are more ready to rely on a save for nothing spell, since the chances are that much better than back in 3e. Spells as a whole became more reliable, without being overpowered, and it's really fun to reward players with smart ideas by simply granting disadvantage on a saving throw (like when first bribing someone and while the bribe gets accepted, casting a subtle Charm Person).   Of course, at high levels people might lose actions, but still: The combat is much more fluent overall and controlling works two ways. This is especially true, since the players have some weak saves (just like most monsters), so sometimes they can get overwhelmed easily and they accept it a bit easier, since they chose their weaknesses themselves.   No complains about saving throws in 5e here.
#94 Orethalion May 14, 2015 7:39:15	Zardnaar wrote:
#95 mellored May 14, 2015 7:48:46	For referecence.. AD&D saving throws had...   4-6 point spread on weakness and strength. improved 8-10 points over the levels.     I think i like about a 5 point spread myself.
#96 ChrisCarlson May 14, 2015 7:53:13	I just hope people grok how unrelated (on a fundamental game design level) AD&D saves are from 5e's save system. Comparing them is dangerously misleading to any sort of proper discussion on the matter presented here.
#97 mellored May 14, 2015 8:01:47	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#98 mellored May 14, 2015 8:11:54	Pillars of eternity has a 45% spread (if i'm reading the wiki right...). Which is 9 points in D&D terms.   Though since stats are mixed to get your defense, it's unlikely to be that large.
#99 ChrisCarlson May 14, 2015 8:16:49	You miss the whole point of what impact a success or failure represents. As well as how often they are attempted. The two systems approach those factors very differently. Ergo, my cautionary post above.
(Reply to #97) AaronOfBarbaria	mellored wrote:
#101 FFSAA May 14, 2015 9:38:25	Orethalion wrote:
#102 Devilbass May 14, 2015 11:30:24	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#103 Orethalion May 14, 2015 9:46:10	FFSAA wrote:
#104 FFSAA May 14, 2015 10:07:09	Orethalion wrote:
#105 ORC_Animus May 14, 2015 11:14:51	I’ve removed content from this thread because trolling/baiting/personal attacks are violations of the Code of Conduct.   You can review the Code of Conduct here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct   Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks.You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.   If you wish to report a post for Code of Conduct violation, click on the “Report Post” button above the post and this will submit your report to the moderators on duty.
(Reply to #95) arnwolf666	mellored wrote:
#107 Jared711 May 14, 2015 14:06:42	The saves definitely seem off and I have already seen this at level 8 a DC 17 reflex save trap with really nasty damage.    The paladin with a -1 dex (+3 char aura) only has a +2 to save or a 25% chance to make this save.   I playing a Dex +4 have a 40% chance to make this save.   DnD is a D20 system but it makes sense to represent things in percentages. (I may be off up to 5%).   A level 1 fighter will have the same save as a level 20 fighter assuming no items (ring protection), spells (bless), abilities (bard song/Paladin aura).   A Fighter with a +0 wisdom save at level 1 will be the same at level 20.  A level 20 Druid would have a +11 to their wisdom save (+6 prof +5 stat) so he will auto succeed the level 3 cleric with DC12 hold person save.  The level 20 fighter only has less than 50% chance to not get held.    Take a level 20 wizard with dominate person at DC 19 (8 + 6 Prof +5 stat).  The fighter only has 10% chance to make it, whereas the Druid has a 60% chance to make it.    The easiest way to fix this would be to lower all the DC’s and either divide the whole +1 or +11 by one half.  Or roll a D12 for a +11 or a D2 for a +1. Etc.       Take a level 20 wizard with dominate person at DC 14  (8 + 3 Prof +3 stat).  ½ prof and ½ stat. Druid would roll D20 + D12  or (D20 +6)  60% to make it Fighter would roll D20 +D2 or  (D20 +1)  35% to make it (much better odds than 10%)     Take a level 3 cleric with hold person at DC 11  (8 + 3 prof/stat).  ½ prof and ½ stat. Druid would roll D20 + D12  or (D20 +6)  75% to make it (he doesn’t auto succeed, which is good) Fighter would roll D20 +D2 or  (D20 +1)  50% to make it  (same odds to make it)
(Reply to #107) arnwolf666	Jared711 wrote:
#109 Zardnaar May 14, 2015 14:18:43	arnwolf666 wrote:
#110 LordCorwin May 14, 2015 14:24:09	Zardnaar wrote:
#111 Zardnaar May 14, 2015 14:34:04	Orethalion wrote:
(Reply to #107) Devilbass	Jared711 wrote:
#113 Jared711 May 14, 2015 15:38:28	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #113) arnwolf666	Jared711 wrote:
(Reply to #113) Devilbass	Jared711 wrote:
#116 Jared711 May 14, 2015 16:20:29	Devilbass wrote:
#117 Xeviat-DM May 14, 2015 21:35:07	Typical DCs start at 13 and go up to 19; a "high save" will also grow by +7 over the course of an adventuring carrer (starting stat of 14, increased to 20, proficiency starting at +2 and growing to +6). So you might have had a +4 save bonus vs. DC 13 at first level and a +11 vs. DC 19 by 20th level. That's a relative improvement of +1. That's hardly "one really good save". Now, this is looking at equal CRs, which aren't going to make up the majority of fights (unless your DM really likes 1 monster vs. the whole party).   If you were to spread out your ability bonuses and maybe a feat or two for saving throw bonuses, you're likely to have a few medium saves, but nothing can get to the mark of that "high" save, which isn't even a "high" save.   I think people are wanting to see more average growth. Against equal level opponents, your ability to successfully save falls lower and lower as you gain levels. Yes, you gain additional tricks for helping to resist effects, but those effects also get more and more deadly. There aren't many save or dies, but save or suck still sucks.   Now, I'm not saying whether or not this is an imbalance in the game. It's definitely a change in the game. Change is good. Level 20 should probably feel different from level 1. At level 1, you can go down in one hit, easily. At level 20, ideally you have enough HP to suck up a few hits (a test character I have sitting around, a str/con fighter, has 224 hp at 20th level, and the damage for a challenge 20 monster is max 140/round, so they can at least survive that). But I can see how players feel, when their AC and Saves don't scale along side monster attack and DCs, yet monster AC scales alongside player attack. There are incongruences between the player math and the monster math, which can easily look like an imbalance on paper.
#118 Orethalion May 15, 2015 7:22:02	Devilbass wrote:
#119 Orethalion May 15, 2015 7:25:56	Zardnaar wrote:
#120 mellored May 15, 2015 7:41:46	arnwolf666 wrote:
#121 LordCorwin May 15, 2015 7:46:49	Saves are a two-way street. If you want to change the game's math so characters are more likely to make their saves, won't NPCs follow suit? Which means PC spellcasters will become more frustrated as the badguys keep making their saves against them.
#122 Solarazhade May 15, 2015 11:06:13	I think of the new saving throw system as "High Risk, High Reward".  I think the biggest opportunity currently is consistency in designing spells and abilities that keep this in mind.  There are some spells that require a saving throw that I just wouldn't use because the benefit for a failed save doesn't match the lower chance of success vs an attack roll spell, lets just call these spells "High Risk, Low Reward".     Some considerations on what should have a saving throw vs what should not:   AOE spells should generally permit a saving throw, I think they almost always do, in this case you're probably going to have save failures on 40% or more of the targets.  If something about the AOE limits the # of targets it could have an attack roll instead of a saving throw like Scorching Ray, or Eldritch Blast for example.   Spells that can completely neutralize 1 or more enemies should have a saving throw.  In previous editions these spells were called "Save or Lose" spells.  In 5e they are heavily nerfed in many ways such as higher chance of succeeding on the save, requiring concentration, and allowing multiple chances to break free after the initial failure.   Then you have a grey area where spells don't necessarily completely neutralize 1 or more enemies, but could drastically change the course of combat.  You have to make judgement calls for some of these.   I feel that there are lots of examples of spells/abilities that have an attack roll but should allow a saving throw "Low Risk, High Reward" and spells/abilities that have a saving throw but should probably be an attack roll "High Risk, Low Reward".  As a DM you may need to house rule changes for some of these spells to make them more balanced, or if they are underpowered maybe just leave them as flavor abilities knowing that they might be slightly weaker but are still available for variety sake.   Some examples of "Low Risk, High Reward": Heat Metal Contagion   Some examples of "High Risk, Low Reward": Bane Sacred Flame Vicious Mockery
(Reply to #122) randl	Solarazhade wrote:
(Reply to #123) Solarazhade	randl wrote:
#125 Solarazhade May 15, 2015 12:35:43	For people who are commenting about the saving throw progression imbalance I created a magical item that you could insert into your games to restore order!   Ring of Spell Resistance, +1, +2, OR +3 Ring, uncommon (+1), rare (+2), or very rare (+3) You have a bonus to saving throws while wearing this ring. The bonus is determined by the rarity of the ring.  Additionally, you can add half your proficiency bonus, rounded down, to any saving throw you make that doesn’t already include your proficiency bonus while wearing this ring.   Notes:  I made it so that it doesn't require attunement.  I did this because if this is truly intended to counteract an imbalance then it should not penalize the player's magic item limitations.  I made it a ring for the same reasons as making it not require attunement, you can't wear more than 1 pair of boots but you can have several rings equipped at once.  You might want to change the name given that there are several effects using the term Spell Resistance which give advantage on saving throws rather than proficiency or a bonus, it was the obvious choice given that ring of resistance and ring of spell turning were already taken, but maybe you can come up with something else creative!
(Reply to #124) randl	Solarazhade wrote:
#127 Xeviat-DM May 15, 2015 15:01:13	Eh, without rewriting the entire chart I made (because my desktop has died, rip), the game totally does assume you'll fight lower level CRs. First evidence is the existence of a LOT of CR 1/8, 1/4, and 1/2 creatures in the monster manual. Evidence #2 is that it is impossible to make a "balanced" encounter of 4 opponents vs. 4 pcs and use equal level opponents. An equal or higher level opponent is for solo fights.   For instance, at level 10, just to grab a random level, a CR 10 opponent is worth 5,900 xp. For a party of 4 level 10s, an easy encounter is worth 2,400 xp, medium is 4,800 xp, hard is 7,600 xp, and deadly is 11,200. That CR 10 opponent is a medium encounter (greater than 4,800, less than 7,600). 2 opponents have a 1.5x xp multiplier, 3-6 have a x2 multiplier. Thus, 2 opponents would need to be under 2,533 and above 1,600 xp each (cr 5 or 6 fits in here) for a medium encounter, or under 3,733 for a hard (level 7 fits; 2 level 8s would push over to deadly). More than 2 would need much lower levels.   So, no, the game doesn't SAY that you'll fight mostly low level foes. Your entire game could be party of 4 vs. 1 monster. But I do think the adventures having many multiopponent fights, and the book saying you should mix things up, suggests that you will often fight lower level opponents (even if it's an average between significantly lower and even with you, it'll average out to lower level).
(Reply to #121) arnwolf666	mellored wrote:
#129 Thaenok May 16, 2015 5:46:00	I don't think its broken. To me saves have always been Lady Luck and a capacity to deal with certain threats based on your expertise. In past editions you could become immune to everything with the right stats, gear, and setup. In 5 you are good at counteracting what it makes sense for your class. I disagree with the mindset of folks who think every character has to be invulnerable. I like that there is weakness both in characters and monsters now as it adds a certain uncertainty to the game and a new level of excitement.
#130 DSZ May 16, 2015 9:57:15	Concerning the low risk high reward spells:   Heat Metal is a concentration spell. Only one concentration spell at any given time, so here is the opportunity cost. No protection spell for you which means high probability of being hit and hence losing the spell. And fire which is the element most often resisted. And an enemy which must have metal on it as pererequitire for the spell to work. Well, I have a different opinion about that spell.   Contagion It only starts working if you fail 3 constituion saves and if you do not make 3 constitution saves meanwhile. So, casting that spell means you will have to wait a considerable time IF it takes effect at all. That means the fight may well be over before the spell takes effect and good luck surviving all the attacks from the enemy before it is affected. Mind you, this is a strong spell, and the reward is high but...the amount of failed saves you need diminishes the over all effect of the spell. And because it does not deal damage I think it is fine as is. This is a great control spell.   I think spells and saves are fine as is, though in general spells could do with a little more kick.
#131 Sword_of_Spirit May 17, 2015 18:03:27	I love the way this edition does it. It's much more tactical. You now have to take account of serious weaknesses when it comes to magical attacks. It is a sort of rock-paper-scissors game with high level combat, and it's supposed to be that way!   People complained about the boring slog that combat could become in some prior editions--well, this is definitely not that. When you have to take precautions to keep the barbarian from going down to saves that target wisdom, and nobody but the rogue has a chance to make the save against the dragon's breath weapon, you now have a much more interesting combat IMO. PCs can use it against monsters too. The right spell can make all the difference, while the wrong spell is a waste. It's your adventurer's job to figure out which is which.
#132 Xeviat-DM May 17, 2015 18:19:24	I'm actually starting to like just giving half proficiency bonus to non-proficient saves.   Why? Well, first, everyone is going to make saving throws. A fighter at 20th level has likely made their fair share of Wis saves, but it won't go up if they don't increase their wisdom (or spend a feat on it).   Second, +6 to a save is a HUGE gain for 1 feat at 17th level. Now, I'm pointing out the biggest spot, but that's still a big gain. A +3 bonus at that point, though, seems like a much more managable gain for a feat (what it would be if everyone was getting +3 at that point).   I'm worried about monster saves. They seem like they have the potential to be very low, and the monster builder doesn't give any suggestions as to what their average and max save bonus should be. It's easy enough for me to add something like that in for my own homebrewed monsters.
#133 Xeviat-DM May 17, 2015 18:26:06	Also, I disagree that having a growing weakness as you level up is somehow "Tactical". What tactics are you going to do to overcome that? Don't fight a wizard? There are strategic options to aleviate the problems; taking Resilient feat, maybe casting specific spells on yourself (I haven't digested the spell chapter), or asking the DM for specific magic items. But you can't simply choose to not make a Wisdom save because your save is low.
#134 Sword_of_Spirit May 17, 2015 18:54:39	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#135 arnwolf666 May 17, 2015 21:20:48	Sometimes I think we should just make a hero rule.  All heroes (PCs only) are proficient in all saves.  After all BBEG has legendary actions and resistances.  Let you ability scores determine the spread on your saves.  Not something I would do, but it is a valid option for certain playstyles.
(Reply to #135) Xeviat-DM	arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #136) arnwolf666	Xeviat-DM wrote:
(Reply to #19) Lilika	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#139 ChrisCarlson May 18, 2015 8:54:06	Our group insisted on rolling stats (I was out voted, prefering point buy). In front of other players I ended up rolling 17, 17, 16, 15, 14, 9.   So my half-elf started play with three 18s. Happens.
#140 Zardnaar May 18, 2015 11:35:45	ChrisCarlson wrote:
(Reply to #134) OB1	Sword_of_Spirit wrote:
#142 intently May 18, 2015 14:11:21	Here's an analogy: you want to drive a sports car rather than an SUV, but someone is going to force you to drive 10% of your time on unpaved roads. So annoying!   It seems that the struggle for most people here is that ability scores do (at least) two things: (1) improve your combat/skill checks, and (2) improve your saving throws. For (1), it's "optimal" to put all your eggs in the smallest number of baskets as possible and then dump the rest of your stats. For (2), it's "optimal" to spread your eggs around and put a few in each basket.   This duality creates a tension in some players' minds: there's no way to maximize (1) and (2) simultaneously!   Furthermore, (2) just seems less important most of the time... except for when you have to make a saving throw. Saving throws are a lot more rare than attacks or skill checks. Also, the player usually decides what ability score she's going to roll when she makes an attack or skill check -- and it's usually going to be the basket with all the eggs. On the other hand, the DM decides when a saving throw happens, and it might just happen to be one of the empty baskets. That's not fair!
(Reply to #142) OB1	intently wrote:
#144 LordTwig May 18, 2015 17:24:26	I have to say I have really enjoyed being able to spread my stats around and not feeling that I totally gimped my character. It makes the standard Human +1 to all stats look a lot better when you are trying to get a positive modifier on all of your stats.
#145 intently May 19, 2015 7:06:29	OB1 wrote:
#146 ChrisCarlson May 19, 2015 7:09:21	intently wrote:
#147 FFSAA May 19, 2015 7:11:16	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#148 ChrisCarlson May 19, 2015 7:15:45	FFSAA wrote:
#149 Zardnaar May 20, 2015 4:32:05	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#150 ChrisCarlson May 20, 2015 7:00:23	Zardnaar wrote:
#151 Zardnaar May 20, 2015 19:03:19	ChrisCarlson wrote:
#152 Tony_Vargas May 20, 2015 19:35:31	Xeviat-DM wrote:
#153 Polaris May 20, 2015 19:48:17	Tony_Vargas wrote: