Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cowleymen Jul 24, 2015 3:52:59	So two of my favorite classes from 4e are the Warden and the Seeker. The warden had lots of options and expansions, make them a very competitive class. While the seeker had the exact opposite. Though I loved the flavor and concept of the class, it never got a whole lot of options. How ever, I would like to see both the classes make a jump over to 5e, and since they are both strongly themed as users of primal magic and the elemants, I figured they would make good subclasses to one overall, Which I decided could easily be a Shaman.    So i wanted to crowd source some ideas on how things could work? What do you feel are ideal things that they have to have to be themselves and nothing else.
#2 Marandahir Jul 24, 2015 5:43:55	Problem is that they all have thematic ties more closely to stuff that are already on the table. Seeker is just a Ranger with another name. It's a more high-magic Ranger, to contrast the no-Magic Ranger from the 4e PHB and the "some magic" Ranger from 4e Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms, but in 5e, all of these are doable. There has already been an UA Arcana feature that described turning the 5e Ranger into the 4e no-magic Ranger. The 5e Ranger itself plays somewhere between the Scout/Hunter from HotFK and the Seeker from 4e's PHB3. But one could turn the dial even further up for Rangers by replacing some class features with additional casting options. Or the Seeker could be a subclass that, instead of gaining a beast companion or fighting skills, learns how to bind divine nature magic into ranged weapon attacks (the crux of the Seeker class). The Warden is most evident as a subclass of Paladin, the Oath of the Ancients Paladin, but Druids get some love in the "Investiture Spells" that were introduced in Elemental Evil Player's Companion – these 6th-level spells emulate the daily powers of the Warden from 4e. I can easily imagine a Stormwarden Ranger (like the 4e Paragon Path), and thus tie elements of the class into a subclass of Ranger. But the Warden was very unlike the Seeker, despite being Primal, and incredibly different from the Shaman. The Shaman doesn't really have a place left in 5e's list of classes. It's features really amount to subclass elements. Some "shamans" (in terms of the nature tribal priest that the Shaman class was trying to emulate) are clearly Nature Domain Clerics. But the 4e Shaman didn't heavily use weapons, and some are clearly Warlocks, of either the Archfey Patron or a new Great Spirit or Primal Spirit or Ancestor Spirit whatever patron (the Pact of Chains Warlock even fits the idea of having a spirit companion, the main "unique" concept of the Shaman). Much more military Shamans are Path of the Totem Warrior Barbarians. And in-between all these are Circle of the Land and Circle of the Moon Druids, who both emulate aspects of the Shaman (high casting, low fighting in the Circle of the Land, plus a thematic attachment to the spirits of that Druid's homeland; while the Circle of the Moon strongly represents the Shamans who "walk the night" in the form of their spirit animal). The biggest problem with these classes were that their main differences between subclasses were "use a different weapon." Yes, class features changed as well, but that's not enough to differ. See Warlord for example. Assassin is another good one – there are magical Assassins and straight-up gritty Assassins, and they're really split between Monk and Rogue respectively, but it works. You need to think about some classes as mergers of themes that may work well in various classes, but not necessarily have a place standing on their own. Seekers MAY have represented a Shamanic role to some extent. The Bow Seeker, at least, seemed to draw from the Shinto Shrine Maiden concept, the Holy archery who imbues her bow with the divine power of the animistic gods. There's probably a reason they originally announced that the Seeker would be a Diviner Controller, not a Primal Controller, and it was before that supposed to be the Ki Controller (a defunct power source that would have included the Monk, Seeker, and Runepriest, plus maybe a few others that never got made). It definitely has roots in Oriental Adventures-style gameplay. But a class needs to be too things: incredibly broad, but also in territory that is unique. What unites the Seeker, Shaman, and Warden? They all deal with spirits? So do the Barbarian, Ranger, and Druid. There's no unity there. These are all great concepts but they're disparate concepts that draw on Primal themes. They fit into existing classes, though some need new delegated archetypes/subclasses for them. That should be good enough.
#3 LuisCarlos17f Jul 24, 2015 5:45:25	Druid is more about pure Nature and shapesifting powers, shamans are more about spirits and fays.  Druids are like the carpenters of primal forces but druids are like diplomatics and servants. Druids worships deities of nature, and shammans ask help to incorporeal spirits and fays.   Druid's magic is more about buffer and monster traits.. and shamman about to summon spiriti allies.   And maybe a shaman subclass could use totemist soulmeld, with game mechanic from "Magic of Incarnum".   Another reason is shaman class by used for tribal nPCs.
#4 mellored Jul 24, 2015 6:16:47	I see warden as a barbarian.  Grab a shield and rage for 1/2 damage makes you penty tough.  Just add a few "rage" options, like... Winter's Herald: When you rage, enemies treat the area within 10' of you as difficult terrain.   Seeker is right in line as a ranger.  You'd need a new sub-class, and a possibly a few more spells. Inevitiable Shot:  When you miss with a ranged attack, you can redirect the attack and make a second attack against a different target within 25' of the origional.  Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again until you take a short rest. Return: When you throw a weapon, it returns to you.   I wrote up a shaman as a druid sub-class here.  Letting you summon a spirit instead in place of shifting, casting though the spirit, and it can take an OA. Could probably use a few more shaman style spells as well.
#5 rampant Jul 24, 2015 6:44:54	The big problem with a shaman class is that you'd have to come up with it's unique schtcik almost from scratch. There have been a lot of shaman classes just starting form 3e and none of them have really caught on as being The Shaman.    Now the OP has said they want the warden and the seekr to be sub-classes of this class and there's an issue there as well. Seekers, while being pretty hefty as far as controllers went, were no where near as beefy as wardens. It's not a game ender but most likely the warden will need to garner some sort of alternative to a large HP pool to maintain it's role as a tank.   Now in order to make this work you need to pick out the commonalities between the warden and the seeker.   Martial bent, Primal magic (often channeled through a weapon, and sometimes the body, but rarely regular casting) A penchant for disruption   Probably doable, I'm thinking the framework would resemble a lightly-to-moderately armored paladin somewhat and while I think a limited selection of spells would probably be a good plan the emphasis should be on channeling ablities like the paladin smite or the lay on hands, but instead of healing and damage we come up with alternate effects.   Yes I'm stealign liberally form the pally, but I think we'll make a lot of changes to the fiddly bits like fearless and the auras, possibly carve them out entire to make more room for sub-class features or maybe some general nature magic enhancements.
#6 Mechatarrasque Jul 24, 2015 7:27:31	I think the shaman could fit nicely as a subclass of the cleric (gets spirit companion as channel divinity) or a spirit-beast master ranger.  As much as I would like a more warden Oath of the Ancients paladin, I think a few more totems (with abilities as long the lines of what mellored suggested) or a few more investiture-type spells for the druid (like marandihir suggested) could fill the transfigural nature of the warden pretty well.
#7 mellored Jul 24, 2015 7:38:03	Mechatarrasque wrote:
#8 rampant Jul 24, 2015 8:15:38	Wildshape sucks in 5e, it's just plain painful to look at.   And Barbarian doens't have the space in it's sub-classes to shove the Warden's tricks in.
#9 edwin_su Jul 24, 2015 9:48:45	Marandahir wrote:
#10 Brock_Landers Jul 24, 2015 10:11:28	The 4th Ed Shaman could be a Druid subclass (the one with a pet), the Warden, as others have said, works as a Barbarian or Paladin subclass.  The Seeker, ranged Ranger, done.   I would like to see the 3rd Ed Spirit Shaman implemented in some way (I have converted the entire class to 5th Ed).
#11 LuisCarlos17f Jul 24, 2015 11:56:30	When an archetype, concept or idea is too famous, it ought to be her own class. It isn´t because storytelling reasons, not for gameplay, but by marketing. The classes (with the right game design) can help to sell more sourcebooks. (Four pages of a cool new class sell more than Forty pages of boring prestiges classes). Each class is a mark of identity, it isn´t only a list of powers and class features. I suggest to use the "variant classes" more than the subclasses, because lots of players want to feel "my PC is different".   * Druid is like the boy-scout who lives in the nature and the shaman the hawker who asks help to the spirits (elementals, incorporeal undeas/deathless and fays). The shaman needs more social interaction.   * Another option could be to add a shaman subclass with vestige pact magic. The vestiges have got a great potential to create new stories.     * My suggestion for a "primal defender", a Wild paladin (the wanderer) is the nahualt or skinwalker, a mystic warrior with totemic powers... (with a gameplay like incarnum soulmelds about monster traits). I like the idea of "Champion of the Forest" with a no-metalic armour and some totem power.
(Reply to #7) Mechatarrasque	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #9) Marandahir	edwin_su wrote:
#14 Yunru Jul 24, 2015 16:35:40	I liked 4e's Shaman, and the relatively passive support. Here's hoping for the return of the lazy.
#15 Cyber-Dave Jul 24, 2015 16:52:35	I think warden is a concept spread between barbarian, paladin, and druid. Seeker is a ranger I think, though the concept could use a new subclass. I could see a full caster shaman focused on healing, summoning, and curses though... Sort of a Diablo Witch Doctor sort of thing with elements of the 4e spirit animal companion worked in.
#16 Serpine Jul 24, 2015 17:10:06	Cyber-Dave wrote:
#17 Chameleon-X Jul 24, 2015 21:45:57	Seeker (Ranger) Seeker's Bond When you select this subclass at 3rd level, you select a Bond from among the options available to you. The Spirit Bond and Blood Bond are detailed below. Each bond provides you with a special feature at 3rd level, a Primal Evocation, and a selection of Bonded Spells.   Primal Evocations are similar to the Channel Divinity ability of Clerics and Paladins. A Ranger using a Primal Evocation is calling forth the spirits of the land around them, and commanding those spirits to manifest in the physical world. Once you use a Primal Evocation, you cannot do so again until you finish a short or long rest.   Bonded Spells are acquired automatically when you reach the indicated levels, and don't count against the number of Ranger spells you know. You may cast each of your Bonded spells once at their lowest level, without expending spell slots. Once you cast a particular spell in this way, you cannot do so again until you finish a long rest. Blood Bond Starting at 3rd level, you may use the Disengage action as a bonus action while you are not wearing heavy armor.      In addition, you gain the Encaging Spirits Primal Evocation. As an bonus action, you speak words of power which call forth the spirits of the land to rise up in the form of writhing vines that bind your enemies and pull them away from you. Each hostile creature within 5ft of you must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pulled 5ft away from you and restrained by spectral vines which spring from the ground beneath them. A creature can attempt to break free from the vines by using its action to make a Strength (Athletics) check against your spell save DC. Bonded Spells Level     Spells 3rd         Hail of Thorns, Thunderwave 5th         Cordon of Arrows, Spike Growth 9th         Fireball, Lightning Arrow 13th      Conjure Woodland Beings, Grasping Vine 17th      Commune with Nature, Conjure Volley, Spirit Bond Starting at 3rd level, the damage die of any weapon you wield with the Thrown property increases by one size. In addition, when you make a ranged attack with a melee weapon that has the Thrown property, that weapon returns to your hand automatically after the attack is resolved.      In addition, you gain the Spirit's Rebuke Primal Evocation. When a creature misses you with a melee attack, you may use your reaction to speak words of power that summon the spirits of war and vengeance into your weapon. The enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from you and, if your attack hits, you may push it up to 5ft with the ferocious power of your strike. The creature may make a Strength saving throw to resist being pushed. Bonded Spells Level     Spells 3rd         Earth Tremor, Ensnaring Strike 5th         Barkskin, Flame Blade 9th         Conjure Barrage, Wind Wall 13th       Ice Storm, Stoneskin 17th       Commune with Nature, Tree Stride Inevitable Shot Starting at 7th level, the primal spirits of the wind and air fill your weapons with their power, granting you supernatural accuracy. When you miss a creature with a ranged attack, you may use your reaction to repeat the attack against another creature within 25ft of the original target, as your projectile (or thrown weapon) magically arcs through the air to strike again. This attack ignores cover and concealment. Spirit Archer By 11th level, you have gained the power to infuse your weapon with the power of the primal spirits. During a long rest you may meditate with one weapon or piece of ammunition, gathering the power of the spirits and binding them within the object. You choose one spell you know, and expend a spell slot of its level or higher, and expend spell components (if any) as if casting the spell. Instead of casting the spell, however, you imbue the weapon or projectile with the spell's energy, storing it within the item.      The spell remains stored within the object for 24 hours, or until you hit with a ranged attack using the object. When you do so, you may use your reaction to instantly cast the spell that was stored within the weapon or projectile, using the point of impact as the origin of the spell's effect. Effectively, this means that the range of any spell cast in this way becomes equal to the range of your weapon. Casting a spell in this way requires no additional components or spell slots, since these were already consumed during the process of imbuing the spell into your weapon.      If you do not cast the spell imbued in a weapon or projectile after 24 hours, its magic fades away. Spirit's Outrage Starting at 15th level, the spirits of the land are angered by the shedding of your blood, granting you renewed access to their power. When you are reduced to 50% or less of your maximum hit points, you may use your reaction to move up to half your speed without provoking opportunity attacks. If you do so, your Primal Evocation power instantly recharges, and you gain an additional use of your Inevitable Shot feature. Once you use this feature, you may not do so again until you finish a short or long rest.
#18 Marandahir Jul 24, 2015 18:16:29	You know the Blood Bond was the bow Seeker and the Spirit Bond was the Thrown Weapon Seeker, right?
#19 arnwolf666 Jul 24, 2015 18:58:18	Shamans are necromancers that speak to the spirits of their people's ancestors for guidance.
(Reply to #18) Chameleon-X	Marandahir wrote:
#42 Mistwell Jul 31, 2015 10:25:58	cowleymen wrote:
#43 LuisCarlos17f Jul 31, 2015 11:21:55	Druid needs more survey skill, he lives in the Nature, and shaman needs more social skills, he is like a diplomatic. They are so different like a woodcutter and a hawker. He a "type", concept or archetype is very popular, but it isn´t showed like a single class by WotC, then a third-party company will publish it  it like a single class. Do remember in World of Warcraft druid and shaman are different classes.    Subclasses for shaman? Dragon shaman, spirit shaman and totem shaman (with incarnum soulmelds).
(Reply to #41) Mechatarrasque	Marandahir wrote:
#45 cowleymen Aug 02, 2015 1:00:32	LuisCarlos17f wrote:
#46 LuisCarlos17f Aug 02, 2015 5:42:30	Because I love variety, I want different types of powers with their own game mechanics: incarnum, ki maneuvers and poses, shadow mysteries, vestige pacts truename, psionic powers, fay glamour, wraith's arcanoi, awakane's areté, garou's gnosis. Incarnum was a lost oportunity. The totem shaman should come back, maybe with some changes, but it was the cooler class from "magic of incarnum". I want to explore the idea of spending psionic power points for incarnum soulmelds, or incarnum points of essentia for metamagic effects, or some power mixing game mechanic about incarnum soulemlds and the maneuvers from martial adepts (crusader, warblade and swordsage).    * You can bet we will be some class like dracolyte or like this.