Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 DaveDash Nov 05, 2014 18:11:06	I am happy with it being -5 +10, but I am not happy with it ignoring cover.   At high levels (especially with archery style) your attack bonus is +13, and there are numerous ways of getting buffs which trivialize the penalty to attack while using this feat (Bless being the main one).   It basically turns this feat into a 'must have' instead of a hard decision. If something in game is so powerful that it's a "must have", it's probably in need of errata.    Adding cover back into the mix for an archer would make them consider more which shots to take. It would also make the party consider more tactics instead of just stand back 300ft and spam arrows.   The melee feats which add -5 +10 are fine, because at least with a melee weapon you can't spam attacks across the whole encounter map every round.   Archers using this feat are pumping out 60-80 damage per round without expending resources. That's higher average damage than many spells, and makes them considerably more deadly than melee characters since they can do that at very long range with no penalty, meaning they are attacking basically EVERY round with that damage.
#2 AaronOfBarbaria Nov 05, 2014 18:43:19	Full cover.   That's seriously all it takes to make this long-range spam that you are worried about a non-option.
(Reply to #2) DaveDash	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#4 AaronOfBarbaria Nov 05, 2014 19:09:02	The fact is, cover in general doesn't come up all the time, so the feature of the feat which you are complaining about is basically irrelevant.   Alternatively, the fact is that cover comes up to the degree and with the frequency needed to make the game enjoyable, so the feature of the feat which you are complaining about is completely within your ability to make precisely as useful as you feel is appropriate.
#5 DaveDash Nov 05, 2014 19:17:59	Cover comes from other creatures comes up FAR MORE OFTEN than a scenario where archers cannot attack due to full cover, and given the combination of archery style, buffs like bless, and sharpshooter, this effectively means a +10 damage on all attacks made with archers.   There is no reason not to take this feat, and no reason not to use it constantly (even without Bless). It removes the 'hard choices' element of the game that almost all other facets of the game have.   When I see, at the actual table, one particular fighting style outdamaging and putting to shame all other classes in the game, that kind of feels like errata territory to me. But call it 'complaining' if you will.
#6 CCS Nov 05, 2014 19:36:18	If your the DM? Simply add the cover rules back in. There, wasn't that simple? If your a player, but not the archer in question? Shut up & concentrate on running your own character. Maybe bring up adding the cover rules back in to your DM. If you ARE the archer player in question? Request the DM apply the cover rules to your shots. Or - crazy thought here - maybe even just not select the feat. But whichever route you go? Realize that the problem only needs fixing where it's important; ie: at YOUR table. Oh, & btw, archers DO expend resources: arrows.
#7 Elfcrusher Nov 05, 2014 19:47:36	CCS wrote:
#8 IxidorRS Nov 05, 2014 19:57:28	Either get rid of the cover exception or the disadvantage exception. It's hard to argue which one of these is the worse part, but getting both for one feat does seem too strong.   It would definitely require building encounters a different way to keep combats interesting for this character.
#9 pukunui Nov 05, 2014 20:14:01	I'm playing a character with the Sharpshooter feat at the moment, and I have to admit that I rarely remember to use the -5 atk/+10 dmg feature. I mainly took the feat for the ability to ignore cover and not suffer disadvantage when firing at long range. She's also got the Crossbow Expert feat, so she doesn't suffer disadvantage while firing in melee either. Although, to be honest, since my PC now has a cool +2 magic scimitar, I may end up having her go with more of a TWF sword + hand crossbow style than a straight-up long distance archer.
#10 FFSAA Nov 05, 2014 21:35:03	DaveDash wrote:
#11 kalil Nov 05, 2014 22:02:04	Most of the "pre-made character concept" feats are mandatory no-brainer selections. Sharpshooter in neither unique nor particularily problematic in this regard. When I saw the thread I assumed you were going to bring up the fact that sharpshooter is the only feat that allows you to double dip the +10 damage at level 1...
#12 Psikerlord Nov 05, 2014 22:55:23	I dont think the ignore cover is too bad, balance wise. Thing is, without this feat, archers are at -2 or -5 most of the time, coz their targets tend to be in melee with their allies, who are providing half or 3/4 cover for them. So that makes the non-feat archer miss more, which the melee guy doesnt have to worry about .   So the feat just lets the archer shoot at a similar hit chance to the melee guy, imo, at short or long range. PLus they can do the -5 hit/+10 dmg thing. I think it's ok in general.   The one balance issue I do see with this feat is on a rogue, hiding every round, shooting from behind a tree or whatever with adv and SA, aaaaaannndd the -5 hit/+10 dmg,  for crazy stupid damage every round, whilst also enjoying his hidden status after his attack, leaving his party to be wailed on.   Happily I can mitigate that undesirable effect as DM by imposing hiding disad after the 1st round of combat (once the monsters are aware the rogue is a lurking threat), and (ii) only allowing adv on hte attack sometimes - depending on all the circumstances and where monsters are concentrating.
(Reply to #5) AaronOfBarbaria	DaveDash wrote:
#14 Delazar78 Nov 06, 2014 2:16:44	hey this thread reminded me I always wanted to ask something, but keep forgetting, so I4m going to "partially" derail it (yolo!) with my question:   Are there penalties for shooting in melee?   Example: my Fighter buddy is in melee with an Orc, and I, the brave rogue, am assessing the situation from a safe distance, and shooting arrows at the Orc. Do I have some penalty?
#15 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 3:48:14	I have 2 PCs with this feat tonight. The Cleric usually uses bless and I have a shield master fighter enabling beatdown via knocking them prone and one PC has crossbow sniper+sharpshooter combo.    An action sure with level 10 PC had him deal around 100 damage in a single round. Faerie Fire is the other part of the combo as well (or anything that grants advanatge or +10 to hit).    I said bless was broken a while ago, some people laughed at me on the forums. Every party I am seeing now has a warcaster+bless combo or faerie fire combo and both parties have shgoeld bashed as an advanatage enabler (in addition to bless).    Bless+advanatge= absurd damage with sharpshooter and great weapon mastrer. Archery style+sharpshooter is good by itself throw in bless and it is absurd. Faerie fire is not as reliable as it is only a 20' area and has a save. Bless is the main enabler and they have enough of them to go around to have it available every fight.
#16 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 3:52:32	DaveDash wrote:
#17 abs1nth Nov 06, 2014 4:33:49	Delazar78 wrote:
#18 mellored Nov 06, 2014 5:16:42	Zardnaar wrote:
#19 FFSAA Nov 06, 2014 6:32:27	Meh shield bash feels like such a waste of a level.  2 levels of barbarian to always have advantage, advantage on dex and str saves, resistance to most attacks and +2 damage on attacks.  Plus you get to scream and froth at the mouth as much as you want and can call it roleplaying.
#20 mellored Nov 06, 2014 6:37:18	FFSAA wrote:
#21 RCanine Nov 06, 2014 6:59:15	AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
#22 Rastapopoulos Nov 06, 2014 7:04:06	I would suggest you scrap all 5e feats and start making your own, like I did, but well I'm a radical... and a house-rulling maniac!   At first during the playtest I was interested by the new concept of "big feats." I thought they'd be much more thematic like 2e Kits or Myth & Magic's talents to some degree. But when I finally saw the individual design of each feat I was sort of appalled. I found them extremely mechanical and even the mechanics in them of poor design taste.   At the end of the day Feats in 5e remain as little more than a min/maxing feature, imho.
#23 mellored Nov 06, 2014 7:17:08	RCanine wrote:
#24 Elfcrusher Nov 06, 2014 7:27:38	Zardnaar wrote:
#25 FFSAA Nov 06, 2014 8:19:32	mellored wrote:
#26 mellored Nov 06, 2014 8:26:22	FFSAA wrote:
#27 BRJN Nov 06, 2014 8:36:48	My 4e Warlock took the Wand Expert feat just so I could shoot through windows (and keyholes).  Because I wanted to ignore cover and be a show-off.   DMs suffered from my tactics once, then adapted: they moved NPCs "behind the wall", not just "back a step", after shooting at me.  Your NPCs should learn from experience, too.
#28 abs1nth Nov 06, 2014 9:48:14	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#29 FFSAA Nov 06, 2014 10:13:23	abs1nth wrote:
#30 Sorxores Nov 06, 2014 10:28:13	DaveDash wrote:
#31 bawylie Nov 06, 2014 10:29:45	House ruling is an expected part of the game. I'm not paying WOTC for a game tailored exactly to my tastes.    And anyway, I have to get DoaM back in somehow. Custom feats and rewriting GWM or adding Reaping Style to the fighting styles are just the sort of changes I need.
#32 mellored Nov 06, 2014 10:35:18	Sorxores wrote:
#33 abs1nth Nov 06, 2014 10:36:19	FFSAA wrote:
#34 Rastapopoulos Nov 06, 2014 10:38:48	FFSAA wrote:
#35 mellored Nov 06, 2014 10:40:02	abs1nth wrote:
(Reply to #32) Timborama	mellored wrote:
#37 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 12:05:23	Elfcrusher wrote:
#38 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 12:28:09	Timborama wrote:
#39 FFSAA Nov 06, 2014 12:26:21	bawylie wrote:
#40 DaveDash Nov 06, 2014 12:27:41	I'm all for house ruling or even banning certain things at the table. I'm however posting my experiences with the upper tier of play as written, since other people are not there yet, or probably not interested in being flamed to death on the forums every time they post their game experience.
#41 mellored Nov 06, 2014 12:27:45	Zardnaar wrote:
#42 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 12:34:28	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #39) bawylie	FFSAA wrote:
#44 DaveDash Nov 06, 2014 12:37:49	Yeah saves are garbage. At the moment my current group is hold person/hold monster everything then letting the GWM Paladin chew them up.
#45 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 12:43:53	DaveDash wrote:
#46 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 12:45:51	bawylie wrote:
#47 mellored Nov 06, 2014 12:48:47	Zardnaar wrote:
#48 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 13:07:36	mellored wrote:
#49 mellored Nov 06, 2014 13:24:56	You could do better with cloud of dagger + sentinal.  That's +10 damage, and no penalty. Or cloud of daggers + grapple.  That's 20 auto-damage.   Hold monster doesn't combo as well with sharp shooter, since there's no dice to multiply on the crit.
#50 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 13:29:29	mellored wrote:
#51 abs1nth Nov 06, 2014 13:42:22	FFSAA wrote:
#52 intently Nov 06, 2014 13:46:25	Put more full cover terrain on the map. Why should the monsters charge your archer instead of hiding behind a rock? Perhaps while some of their friends flank your position. Monsters can also ready attacks on your archer when they pop out of cover. Create a hobgoblin archer with Sharpshooter instead of Martial Advantage. Give the monsters a mage with wind wall, control weather, or even darkness.   Just ask yourself: why aren't modern armies 100% snipers? Because snipers have tons of weaknesses.   As for shield bashing, give some monsters Athletics proficiency.
(Reply to #52) DaveDash	intently wrote:
#54 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 14:06:22	DaveDash wrote:
(Reply to #54) DaveDash	Zardnaar wrote:
#56 Zardnaar Nov 06, 2014 14:15:01	DaveDash wrote: