Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Nivek_Loneshadow Aug 26, 2014 19:23:10	I'm just wondering how other people feel about the 5e rogue and his job to find traps. I remember past editions people would complain about other classes being better at certain tasks such as this one.  I know Rogues can take Perception to help them but even then they are barely on par with other classes that are good at spotting things and those whose class naturally has higher Wis.  Anyone make any house rules or feel Rogues should have a class feature that allows them to actually find the trap in the first place?
#2 GladiusLegis Aug 26, 2014 19:29:00	Expertise.   /thread
#3 Zardnaar Aug 26, 2014 20:08:16	Expertise doesn't help much when a Bard has the same class feature and take the Criminal back ground and will know more skills to boot.
(Reply to #3) GladiusLegis	Zardnaar wrote:
#5 seti Aug 26, 2014 19:50:23	Another reason why I posted a thread a while back making a case for perception as the 7th ability score, lol.   I think rogues are good at what they do, I haven't studied the 5e bard yet, however.   My main problem regarding rogues getting overshadowed in the skill department was that in past editions, a wizard could use spells to beat the rogue at just about every rogue skill ever. That is still a thing, but 4e and 5e made it a little better.
#6 Ravenmancer Aug 26, 2014 20:30:44	No.  Barbarians should be the best at finding traps.       Rogues are the best at dealing with them, though.  At least the Thief and Arcane Trickster are.  Noone else can disarm as a bonus action.
#7 FFSAA Aug 26, 2014 20:45:56	Bigger problem I think is the large discontinuity at level 11 where the rogue suddenly gets much more reliable over a rogue of level 10.  Also the fact that someone that dips 2 levels of rogue for cunning action will be just as good as a pure rogue.  If the first 3 levels are apprentice levels, then an apprentice rogue is just as good as a level 10 who is a well experienced one.
(Reply to #7) Overpromises	FFSAA wrote:
(Reply to #5) Ashrym	seti wrote:
#10 FFSAA Aug 26, 2014 22:45:52	Overpromises wrote:
(Reply to #4) Ashrym	GladiusLegis wrote:
(Reply to #9) seti	Ashrym wrote:
#13 rampant Aug 26, 2014 22:57:07	Why is it so important for rogue to be the best trap finder, that seems more like a background ability than a class ability anyway, especially if rogues aren't all supposed to be dungeon delving kleptos with a dagger fetish.
(Reply to #12) Ashrym	seti wrote:
#15 rampant Aug 26, 2014 23:05:02	Well ritual divinations make me a bit concerned for a lot of traditional rogue tricks, but I'd have to do some more testing and research before arguing about it.
#16 seti Aug 26, 2014 23:35:18	Knock Invisability Blur Ghost sound Mage hand Fly Feather Fall Single target ranged attack spells AoE spells that auto-hit, and never miss...They just do half damage on a miss. Spells that make walls, illusions, etc.     It's not hard for a PC to 'game' his or her wizard into a stealth machine who never needs keys, lock picks, and doesn't even need to disarm traps. And sneaks by everyone, gives themselves advantage, acts as a sniper, etc. High INT = high investigation skill, for example, which also equals being able to find a trap, and then mage hand to spring it from a safe distance. A few single target combat spells and AoE save for 1/2 never miss spells also dish out more damage than sneak attack...Sneak attack is also back to being totally a DM controlled ability, if using TotM combat. (DM decides if you have advantage, DM decides if an ally is within 5 feet of target, unless that ally is also engaged in melee with the target).   True, this does all depend on the PC and DM, but the potential is there, just like in 1e, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, PF....Not so much 4e, though.
#17 Atheosis Aug 27, 2014 0:01:58	People still use traps?
(Reply to #16) Ashrym	seti wrote:
#19 Psikerlord Aug 27, 2014 2:14:05	As someone already posted, rogues the only one who gets expertise on thieves tool. Rogue is best at disarming traps.
#20 DLfan Aug 27, 2014 2:58:47	Nivek_Loneshadow wrote:
#21 DLfan Aug 27, 2014 3:06:20	Ashrym wrote:
#22 kalil Aug 27, 2014 3:12:30	Atheosis wrote:
#23 FFSAA Aug 27, 2014 7:47:50	rampant wrote:
#24 Chimerasame Aug 27, 2014 8:07:55	Rogues have always been the best at finding traps, and, with Expertise, if optimized for such, they still are. Bards have always been close (e.g. they *also* got percentage points to put into rogue abilities back in 2nd ed, just not as many), and they still are second-best, too.   Out of all that list of spells in this thread, I don't really see anything that would find traps effectively. There might be some kind of divination that'd do it, but... that'd be a spell slot, once per hallway/room, versus an always-on preternatural awareness? (If put Expertise in Perception)
#25 Karnos Aug 27, 2014 8:18:13	FFSAA wrote:
#26 iserith Aug 27, 2014 8:24:53	kalil wrote:
#27 FFSAA Aug 27, 2014 8:32:54	Karnos wrote:
#28 dmgorgon Aug 27, 2014 8:58:01	The problem with the rogue is that Disable Traps and Open locks are rolled up under the catch all of Thieves Tools.  You can no longer be good at one and bad at the other.
#29 iserith Aug 27, 2014 8:57:08	Yeah, instead you get to be equally good at both. Immersion. Broken.
#30 dmgorgon Aug 27, 2014 8:58:53	iserith wrote:
#31 iserith Aug 27, 2014 9:00:20	dmgorgon wrote:
#32 Karnos Aug 27, 2014 9:51:36	FFSAA wrote:
#33 ChrisCarlson Aug 27, 2014 11:09:14	Karnos wrote:
#34 FFSAA Aug 27, 2014 11:16:04	Karnos wrote:
#35 dmgorgon Aug 27, 2014 11:32:37	iserith wrote:
#36 autolycus Aug 27, 2014 11:42:51	dmgorgon wrote:
#37 KaribouOfDoom Aug 27, 2014 11:44:26	iserith wrote:
#38 iserith Aug 27, 2014 11:52:28	autolycus wrote:
#39 rampant Aug 27, 2014 12:16:18	I still don't see why this is a big deal? I mean personally I'd not have trapfinding as a class feature at all, it seems like a background perk or possibly part of a feat to me.
(Reply to #28) Arbitrary_Aardvark	dmgorgon wrote:
#41 sleypy Aug 27, 2014 14:27:13	rampant wrote:
#42 rampant Aug 27, 2014 14:53:09	Maybe, but rogues aren't all supposed to be dungeon savvy knife happy kleptos anymore.
#43 sleypy Aug 27, 2014 15:08:37	Some rogues are dungeon savvy knife happy kleptos. Personality type is irrelevent to a discussion. Choosing the skills class and having the option to focus elsewhere other than traps should not mean that the rogue that chooses to focus on traps should have their role diminished.