Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Xeviat-DM Aug 14, 2014 14:30:17	Now, hear me out. This thread is for collecting preliminary ideas, as we don't have the full CR calculator or monster builder system yet. What we do have is the PC building system.   As I think PCs should be able to be used as enemies with little change (I don't think they should get so many daily resources, lest they nova), I think we should be able to draw a lot of information from the PC system.   I will also ignore my dislike for the low HP in the system right now.   The Champion Fighter is really the most simple thing we have. Thus, I think monsters could be based around them. A 1st level champion fighter could look like any of the following (assuming 16 in attack stat and 14 con):   Great Weapon Fighter AC: 16; HP: 12; Atk: +5 (2d6*+3 ~ 11.3)   Duelist Fighter (w/shield) AC: 18; HP: 12; Atk: +5 (1d8+5 ~ 9.5)   Two Weapon Fighter AC: 16; HP: 12; Atk: +5 (1d6+3×2 ~ 13)   Archer Fighter (crossbow until 5th) AC: 16; HP: 12; Atk: +7 (1d10+3 ~ 8.5)   Defense Fighter (shield) AC: 19; HP: 12; Atk: +5 (1d8+3 ~ 7.5)   They all also get second wind for 1d10+1 hp.   Okay, so a fighter fighting their duplicate would be at 50/50 odds. The two weapon fighter and the great weapon fighter have a good chance of downing their self in one round. Their hit rate is around 50%, so it could be a 2 round fight, or four if second wind can be used. A 50% chance of death sounds like a deadly encounter. It is winable, and the odds aren't technically against you.   Thus, a CR 1 opponent should be a deadly encounter for a level 1 character; 4 CR 1s are then deadly encounter for 4 level 1 PCs (both benefit as much from ganging up). How does this compare to the current rules?   A CR1 opponent is worth 200 xp. A deadly encounter is 100 xp per player.   A CR 1/2 opponent is worth 100 xp. Here's some CR 1/2 monsters that are similar to the fighter:   Orc AC 13; HP 15; Atk: +5 (1d12+3 ~ 9.5)   Hobgoblin AC 18, HP 11, Atk +3 (1d8+1 ~ 5.5 ... 12.5 with ally)   Lizardfolk AC 15; HP 22; Atk +4×2 (1d6+2 ~ 11)   Gnoll AC 15; HP 22; Atk +4 (1d6+2 ~ 5.5) and free attack after dropping foe to 0 hp.   How do these all compare to the fighters? Well, the fighter has better AC than most of them, but lower HP than most of them. These stats are all over the place, averaging to: AC 15.25, HP 17.5, Attack +4, damage 7.9.
#2 Grifford Aug 14, 2014 15:00:06	Wall of text crits for 6d12.
#3 silentdante Aug 14, 2014 15:32:34	but... doesn't the DM basic rules have NPC, monster, and how to build encounter rules with CR?
#4 Xeviat-DM Aug 15, 2014 2:11:03	The DM basic rules has how to build encounters with the current system, but it doesn't yet tell us how to determine CR. It says that you can make changes to existing monsters and then recalculate their CR. They also say that CR isn't used for building encounters, that XP budgets are, even though the two are intrisically tied (if there had been minions, regulars, elites, and solos and had there been different XPs within each CR, I'd believe that CR isn't used).   I'm looking at a Fighter vs. a Fighter, a true deadly encounter, and trying to figure out where the fighter is placed within the CR system.
#5 Xeviat-DM Aug 15, 2014 2:11:56	Also, I fixed the formatting on the opening post. Apparently, I shouldn't try to post from my phone anything more than a paragraph.
#6 TiaNadiezja Aug 15, 2014 3:13:57	If you're using Chrome, Xev, try Request Desktop Site. That's how I get multiple paragraphs on my phone.
#7 Marandahir Aug 15, 2014 6:34:04	I don't know why you wouldn't just use the NPC rules in the DM's Packet, the Hoard of the Dragon Queen Supplement 1, and when it releases, in the Monster Manual.  There are enough NPC archetypes in there to simulate all the PC classes without becoming so complicated as you're detailing here.
#8 silentdante Aug 15, 2014 15:09:36	hmmm i posted a reply in here and now it's gone...
#9 Quasadu Aug 15, 2014 6:59:04	From skimming the basic DM rules, I got the impression that the formula for figuring out CR was: At what level can the PC's (A) survive a single hit from the creature, and (B) have any means of affecting the creature in combat. And that's it.   CR in this edition isn't intended as a guideline for what creatures to use in an encounter (e.g. the party is level 2 so use CR 2 creatures). It is intended as a warning to the DM not to throw this creature at parties of lower level (e.g. the party is level 2, so if you give thema CR 3 creature to fight, PC's are gonna die).   That's my understanding anyway. Like I said, I've only skimmed the basic DM rules.
#10 silentdante Aug 15, 2014 15:16:27	i think the whole forum just went back in time cause a lot of posts are missing... anyway   yes like Quasadu said, i had put in an earlier post, a CR1 means a party of level 1's not 1 other PC at lvl 1 so yes a wizard could kill a cleric/rogue with average roles with one magic missle, but the 2-4 other PC's could also more then likely one shot the wizard. same goes for a fighter NPC.
#11 Marandahir Aug 15, 2014 15:18:36	The forums seem to be jumping forward bit by bit, hour by hour, reclaiming everything that was lost earlier today.
#12 Xeviat-DM Aug 15, 2014 13:38:13	Eh ... but many first level PCs can't survive a single hit from many of the CR 1 monsters. The "Evil Mage" can drop a magic missile on a 1st level cleric or rogue that will drop them. No roll. Congratz.   A level 8 PC has a hard time suviving the CR 8 dragon's breath.   And CR is totally linked to encounter building. XP values for monsters are directly linked to CR. XP values are used for determining the challenge of a fight. Thus, since CR = XP, then CR is used for determining the challenge of a fight.
#13 silentdante Aug 15, 2014 14:18:48	you would certainly hav to roll for the rogue/cleric since he would have 8-11 HP and minimum magic missle would be 6 damage. the wizard though would probly die with only 6-9 hp per first lvl. but thats why CR is not based on a 1 to 1 for a PC it's a 1 to 1 for a party, so yes that lvl 1 wizard could on average take out the cleric, but his 2-4 other buddies would also take out a lvl 1 wizard in one average melee hit. then they stabalize or revive their buddy and go on.   so yes a lvl 8 character would die to a CR 8 dragon breath on average, but hopefully the whole lvl 8 party wasn't standing together, and the rest of the part would fight pretty hard, with their lvl 8 abilities too.   from what i read thats how CR works, not 1 to 1 PC but 1to 1 party.
#14 Quasadu Aug 15, 2014 14:49:18	Xeviat-DM wrote: