Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 dragonfather Aug 14, 2014 23:53:03	When looking at the Sorcerer I was really disappointed by how lackluster the major class features are, especially when compared to the wizard (arguably the best class to make a direct comparison against)   Let me break down the comparisons.   First. Spells Known. A sorcerer knows 15 spells by level 17 and gains no more spells after that. A sorcerer will likely know 3 first level spells, 2 2nd-5th level spells, and 1 6th-9th level spell. In comparison, if we assume a wizard will raise their int to 20 by level 16 (probably not a bad assumption) the wizard will be able to prepare 22 spells at 17, and 27 spells by 20 (2 extra from signature spell). They will also be able to cast any wizard spell that is a ritual as a ritual (about another 20 spells), and they can potentially have every spell in the list scribed into a few spellbooks, making them very flexible.     Second, sorcery points. This feature is really underwhelming. a sorcerer gets 20 sorcery points by level 20 to fuel metamagic and gain additional spells per day. You can get 10 1st level spells from this each day, or fewer higher level slots, or even fewer if you use metamagic, the only slightly decent quality because it is somewhat flexible. You can also convert spell slots into points, but it is always at a loss. You would almost never want to convert a high level slot since there are quite a few spells that work better if cast from a higher slot. In comparison, a wizard gets arcane recovery. at level 20 this is 10 spell levels worth of slots to regain. If you regain 2 5th level slots this is the equivalent of 14 sorcery points. if you choose lower level slots the conversion rate is even worse for sorcerers, and at lower levels arcane recovery is basically identical (at level 6 a sorcerer can get 3 1st level spells from 6 points, and a wizard can regain 3 1st level spells from arcane recovery). When looking at the metamagic options, there are some options that would work well with some cheese (like extending a delayed blast fireball to do 32d6 damage). But mostly the options aren't that useful or are worse than a wizard counterpart.   For example there is careful spell for 1 sorcery point, where you can choose charisma mod number of creatures to auto save. For the wizard, there is sculpt spell for evocation specialists (arguably going to be the most popular) which is 1+int mod creatures, and they also take no damage at all for the successful save, making it better in most cases (since most spells you would want to reshape would probably be evocation spells)   There is distant spell, but if we are honest with ourselves, how often are you EVER 300 feet away from the enemy in combat? much less the 60 or 120 feet that most spells already have.   There are more like this, and yes some of them have certain cases they are useful, but then we have the huge killer.   Spell Mastery and Signature spells.   Wizards get a level 1 and level 2 spell at level 18 they can cast at will. and they can change which two are at will every day. Shield and misty step for the lulz? sure. At level 20 they get two 3rd level spells they can cast once for free between short rests. This is strictly better than the sorcerer capstone which gives you 4 sorcery points, only if you have none, at the start of combat, not even enough to cast 1 third level spell.   This makes it so the wizard can cast far more spells per day than the sorcerer, with greater variety, and better flexibility. We haven't even discussed the other benefits wizards can get over sorcerers depending on their specialty (maximize every cantrip? Raise dead at no cost 1/day? Heal up as you kill stuff? create wards that can soak 40+ damage that last all day? Make yourself resistant to the red dragon's fire breath before you start the fight via transmute stone?, the list goes on) In comparison the sorcerer can get... 1 non changeable resistance, they can fly at will (at 20 wizards can just cast fly every encounter anways if they want), They can get wild magic (roll on the table 5% of the time when you only have 22 spell slots, you might get it twice each day, almost never at low levels) and even then half the time the effect will either be benign, or actually harmful to you or your party. Overall I just find the sorcerer to be underwhelming. Their historical benefit was that they were spell slingers, casting lots of magic, but in this edition wizards clearly keep pace, and even outstrip them at high levels, all while maintaining flexibility the sorcerer does not have.
#2 dragonfather Aug 18, 2014 20:45:23	Correction: sorcerers get the 4 sorcery points every short rest, I read it wrong. I still get the feeling that the Sorcery Points feature has got to be written incorrectly in some way. When you look at Monk Ki, it resets after every short rest and they get the same progression of ki points as sorcerers get sorcery points. Add in the fact that the way of the four elements gives them the effect of spellcasting and you can see that Monks can easily toss out 3-4 fireballs per combat at high levels. If sorcery points regened after a short rest people would be more inclined to spend them readily and it would fit the theme of a caster that flings lots of a limited number of spells.   They did a good job of enticing wizards to expend their slots by making them able to regain spell slots so people are not stingy about casting at low levels and gets them in the mindset of a spellcaster, the same needs to be done with sorcery points.
#3 Psikerlord Aug 18, 2014 22:04:31	yep sorcerors kinda suck unless you really want that dragon or chaos concept.
#4 Dunther_the_Great Aug 18, 2014 22:16:26	how do the numbers compare if you double the number of sorcery points you get, or all but the two highest spell leves are one for one cost, or both?
#5 Tony_Vargas Aug 18, 2014 23:26:43	Well, we knew the job was going to be difficult when we saw how neo-Vancian casting worked.  With everyone casting spontaneously, what's the Sorcerer's schtick?   It  the playtest is was a rather creative progressive transformation:  as you expended slots, you turned into a melee monster.     I can see how Sorcerery points make the Sorcerer yet a little more spontaneous than the other neo-Vancian casters, but I'm not sure it's worth losing so many potential spells known.
#6 masterfat78 Aug 18, 2014 23:32:27	Maybe you guys should try playing these classes before judging them. Im not saying the sorcere isnt weaker, Im saying that the game has barely come out. Give it a month or two before making judgements. The sorcerer has a couple metapowers that really make their spells strong. Yes they lack the ability of changing out their spells like a wizard does but they also have a good meshing with bards and pallys that the wizard doesnt. Im not sure that metas will affect pally spells all that much, but they will go good with bard spells Im sure. My first impression is that they fall behind wizards a little but not enough that they are a weak class and thats just a first impression. Actual playtime with these classes is more important to me than people comparing the two classes in a void. You need to have the random factor of actual play to judge classes.
(Reply to #2) Ashrym	dragonfather wrote:
#8 mellored Aug 19, 2014 6:49:35	I think your underestimating the potency of metamagic.   Careful: This one is pretty weak. Distant: Also kidna weak. Empowered: This could reasonablly double the damage you deal, but only if you roll crappy in the first place.  Still, it only cost 1 point. Extend: This also doubles the effectivness of certain spells. Heightended: Double the chance of landing hold person or other key spells Quickened: Closer to a 30% boost, but it's more versitile then others.  You could hit and hide for instance. Subtle: Kinda useless, unless you can convince your DM of stealth shinanigans. Twinned: Doubles the effect of some spells.     With optimal use, you would probably get an effective 50% more spells per day. More if you consider you are casting them faster.
#9 ooSitrioo Aug 19, 2014 7:55:30	In 3.5/PF I preferred sorcerers to wizards (I know blasphemy) but I also preferred to pick a single school and juice it for everything I could get out of it.  Sorcerers did this better in my oppinion.  Since the lack of feats/magic items/class abiliities that amp DCs of school, I don't know the extra specialization will give the same payoff.   As a side note, I do prefer the new wizard casting mechanic.  I know we suspend disbelief a lot for these games, but I could never quite square the fire and forget idea in my head.
#10 Slyck314 Aug 19, 2014 9:33:21	I like the model of the sorcerer and I don't feel they're especially under powered compared to the wizard. But the subclasses really feel independent of the base class. Both the dracinic and wild schticks are disconnected from the sorcerer's. I would have liked their abilities to have tied into the metamagic in unique and interesting ways.
#11 Dastion Aug 19, 2014 11:07:00	Wizards are more rigid in their spellcasting.  They're all about utility.  Sorcerers are more limited, but they are damned good at what they do.   For example:   Evocation Wizard casts a level 4 Chromatic Orb.  They deal 6d8+Int.   Draconic Sorcerer converts that 4th level slot into 4 Sorcery points.  Casts a level 1 Chromatic Orb (3d8+Cha) using up an equivalent of 2 of those points.  He twins it, dealing an additional 3d8+Cha at the cost of a single Sorcery point.   The Sorcerer uses the spell more effectively in all aspects. He deals more damage, and uses less resources (he essentially used 3/4ths of a 4th level slot).   That same Sorcerer has permanent Mage Armor, an effective +2 con for the purposes of HP from level 1..  Sorcerers have much more going for them when it comes to class powers than the Wizard does.  The Wizard gets school specific perks that are nice - but most of them pale in comparison to what a Sorc gets.  Don't get me wrong, Shape Evocation is nice, but Careful spell is awesome for using spells like Fear around allies.
#12 knightserpent Aug 19, 2014 11:08:53	The Draconic Heritage subclass could easily be put into any other base class.  Now that you mention it, I wonder what other subclasses could be flip flopped around to other classes?
#13 mellored Aug 19, 2014 11:10:27	Slyck314 wrote:
#14 mellored Aug 19, 2014 11:11:28	knightserpent wrote:
#15 Mechatarrasque Aug 19, 2014 12:28:35	Although I liked the "turn into a melee monster" aspect of the playtest sorcerer, I do have to admit it would have worked better for a melee type to get this ability that for a caster.  It seems like it would work better with a warden or blackguard type paladin (for a Denerian from the Dresden files) or maybe a totemist barbarian.     As a DM, it seems like the dragon blood line sorcerer lends itself as a platform for creepy-looking bad guys.  You barely have to refluff it to make a devil blood line sorcerer, and I suspect a spider-demon blood line sorcerer for the Drow shouldn't be too hard to engineer either.
#16 Psikerlord Aug 19, 2014 14:19:03	Dastion wrote:
#17 shamurai7 Aug 19, 2014 15:30:26	sorc looks good to me....and i've been running games for 15 years.    I already have players interested in playing the class.       my advice is play it before you gripe about it.    I have read the book cover to cover already and can positively say the class is just fine...   IMO it looks great on paper and I think playing will only confirm this.
(Reply to #17) knightserpent	shamurai7 wrote:
#19 KarlB Aug 20, 2014 8:19:47	Honestly, I like the sorcerer. My only gripe is that they only know 15 spells at level 20 (someone mentioned 17 earlier in the thread, but I can't find how). That being said, the fact that you scale lower level spells into higher level spell slots helps with that a bit.   Plus, given that higher level spells are generally always better than scaled lower level spells, IMO, nothing stops a, say, 10th level sorcerer from starting his day by converting all his first and second level slots into sorcery points. Those 7 extra points equals 7 potent empowered Fireballs cast from his 3rd through 5th level slots, for example. In fact, you can choose to completely unlearn most if not all your lower level spells just to dedicate those slots into converted sorcery points. Plus, with Twinning, I believe they are the only class that can hold TWO targets with a single concentration spell (assuming a normally single target spell), which is no small deal.   I see the sorcerer as the burst dps version of the wizard ... not as much endurance or versatility, but really shines when you need to bring down a mob fast or need to control a situation in a hurry.