Spare the Dying got nerfed!

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

frothsof

Jul 03, 2014 10:23:25

Amen! Hallelujah! Only stabilizes now!

#2

mellored

Jul 03, 2014 10:26:54

Too much IMO.

 

It's stabilize, as a full action.   Not a bonus action.

#3

Paraxis

Jul 03, 2014 10:50:48

mellored wrote:
#4

CelticPaladin

Jul 03, 2014 10:48:29

I dunno. It'd be useful to a Cleric not trained in medicine, I suppose.

#5

Miladoon

Jul 03, 2014 12:58:38

Works for me.  I like the tension it brings the table when deciding when to take a full action or bonus action to save a PC's bacon. 

#6

iserith

Jul 03, 2014 13:00:41

CelticPaladin wrote:
#7

jaelis

Jul 03, 2014 13:13:21

I would have made it a ranged action. You are spending a cantrip slot for it, should get something worth the while.

#8

DemoMonkey

Jul 03, 2014 13:25:04

So frothsof, you think this version - full action, no range, stabilize only, no better than a DC 10 skill check - is properly balanced now?

(Reply to #8)

frothsof

DemoMonkey wrote:
#10

DemoMonkey

Jul 03, 2014 14:46:22

Understood. I disagree, but thank you for the response.

#11

frothsof

Jul 03, 2014 14:48:50

You know, I would have been happy even if it was a bonus action. So long as it just stabilizes instead of heals. But, I would have liked Cure Wounds to be a bonus action, and since it isnt, this falls into line with what I would expect.

#12

DemoMonkey

Jul 03, 2014 14:53:56

As long as "Healing Word" is available as a bonus action cure spell, the fact that Cure Wounds is not one isn't as important.  However I think by making STD an action,  it will make it less fun to play the cleric. You will probably lose at least one or two rounds a night when you could be acting because you have to save Gromgax Beefyscoop from death, again, instead of macing something.

 

I'm generally opposed to things that I think will be less fun in play.

 

#13

frothsof

Jul 03, 2014 15:04:51

Well, the reason I harped on Cure Wounds is bc its a Domain spell, so I would have liked to have seen it as a bonus action since its so integral to a certain build. In a home game I would likely houserule CW and STD (lol) both as bonus actions for the exact reason you mentioned. It sucks to have to heal w your action and not get to attack. 4e pretty much fixed that. Still, I prefer the final version to the playtest; it was just too overpowered as a cantrip and became a must have for every cleric. Thats just my opinion.

#14

pukunui

Jul 03, 2014 15:13:01

frothsof wrote:
#15

Paraxis

Jul 03, 2014 15:14:23

Since we are talking about how some of us might house rule it to a bonus action.

 

What about, make it a bonus action but it doesn't auto stabablize it gives the dying character a free death save with advantage, that they can't get a failure on.  So a good chance to get a success on the death save, and maybe one of the dice come up 20 and brings the character to 1 h.p.

 

That way it is a bonus action, and has a moment of drama to it, also means you might have to use it more than one round in a row.  

#16

mellored

Jul 03, 2014 15:22:13 		IMO, it should either be a bonus action, or have range. Stabilize is good.
#17

Blackdog2k

Jul 03, 2014 15:30:26

IMO, a good alternative to your cleric repeatedly failing Wisdom (Medicine) checks...eh?

 

It happens, trust me.

#18

Plaguescarred1

Jul 04, 2014 3:00:48

I would have preferred if Spare The Dying would stabilize as a bonus action but still like it better than the playtest verison by a mile!

#19

pukunui

Jul 04, 2014 3:29:06

Spare the Dying is basically a magical healer's kit with unlimited uses.

#20

kalil

Jul 04, 2014 3:50:28

+1 to STD as a minor

#21

Psikerlord

Jul 04, 2014 4:46:20

frothsof wrote:
#22

pukunui

Jul 04, 2014 4:58:26

It used to give the target 1 hit point.

#23

Psikerlord

Jul 04, 2014 5:20:35

oh geez thank god they fixed it

#24

Gnarl

Jul 04, 2014 6:01:21

Plaguescarred wrote:
#25

Prom

Jul 04, 2014 6:02:08

Blackdog2k wrote:
#26

edwin_su

Jul 04, 2014 6:32:45

I might want to see spare the dieing have axtra use.

It would stabilise a creature reduced to 0 HP.

And if used on a creature that is stable and has 1 or more failed death saves it removes a failed death save.

 

As stabilising does not remove your failed death saves.

#27

FFSAA

Jul 04, 2014 7:00:28

DemoMonkey wrote:
#28

JDizzleton

Jul 04, 2014 7:20:05

Seems fine to me. It's a cantrip and gives you the benefit of not having to train medicine or risk failing a saving throw, and you can use it as much as you need. I'll bet it's usefulness will be proven in any battle where PC's are going down often.

 

Making it ranged and/or a bonus action seems too much: it would kill the suspense of having characters go down and dying. You don't need to fear slipping closer to death as long as the cleric is up and zapping people back to stability from anywhere on the field while attacking.

 

Edit: agree that it's fun to roll dice though, it would be nice if STD included a roll somehow

#29

SwampDog

Jul 04, 2014 8:01:28

frothsof wrote:
#30

DemoMonkey

Jul 04, 2014 8:09:26

"The cleric moves to the fallen PC, stabilizes him, and can still swing a weapon or throw a projectile.   What's wrong with that?"

 

Offhand I'd say what's wrong with that is the fact that that ISN'T how it works right now. Currently the cleric moves to the fallen PC, stabilizes him, and is done for the round.

#31

SwampDog

Jul 04, 2014 8:34:21

DemoMonkey wrote:
#32

cranebump

Jul 04, 2014 9:15:16

pukunui wrote:
#33

SwampDog

Jul 04, 2014 9:32:55

cranebump wrote:
(Reply to #32)

XunValDorl_of_HouseKilsek

cranebump wrote:
#35

pukunui

Jul 04, 2014 12:48:16

I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed.

cranebump wrote:
#36

DemoMonkey

Jul 04, 2014 14:43:30

"Ding!  And a kit that never fails."

 

That's kind of irrelevant. The healers kit never fails anyway according to the current description. If you try to stabilize someone WITHOUT a kit, you have to make a check, but if you have the kit it just works

 

So really, the net value of making one of your limited cantrip choices STD is to save the 5 gp cost of a healers kit every half dozen sessions.

 

I don't know about anyone else, but to me that seems like a really bad investment of a very limited resource (cantrip choices).

#37

MechaPilot

Jul 04, 2014 14:48:05

DemoMonkey wrote:
#38

mellored

Jul 04, 2014 14:48:07

To be fair, the light cantrip is basicly the same.  It saves you some gold form not needing a torch.

 

But yea, it's a bit overnerfed.

#39

Dwarfslayer

Jul 04, 2014 14:49:08

DemoMonkey wrote:
#40

cranebump

Jul 04, 2014 14:54:22

DemoMonkey wrote:
#41

DemoMonkey

Jul 04, 2014 14:57:30

Dwarfslayer

 

These are valid points. However there is a sweet spot between "I want to contribute to the group" and "I want to actually do stuff myself". I think requiring the cleric player to give up their action to use a cantrip to stabilize someone is a bad idea, purely from the point of view that in a large, busy battle, that may be the only thing that player does for 20 minutes.

 

Let me turn the question around. What would be the downside of it being a bonus action?

#42

ankiyavon

Jul 04, 2014 15:00:43

DemoMonkey wrote:
#43

MechaPilot

Jul 04, 2014 15:03:10

ankiyavon wrote:
#44

Dwarfslayer

Jul 04, 2014 15:28:10

DemoMonkey wrote:
#45

ankiyavon

Jul 04, 2014 15:38:47

MechaPilot wrote:
#46

Makaki

Jan 16, 2015 13:33:43

This thread is a bit old, but it's pretty much on subject with what I wanted to add. Didn't know if to start a new thread, to then be called that it was posted before. Here goes.

 

I think the problem is how 3 different options, fail to work with each other, and negate each other:

* Medicine check.

* Healer's Kit

* Spare the Dying (cantrip)

 

Starting with the most available. If you happen to be proficient at Medicine or just happen to have a lot of Wisdom. The other 2 options ignore your capabilites. So if you do upgrade to one of the more reliable alternates, it reduces your Medicine use considerably, to the point where you might consider why even make it proficient.

 

2nd option. Someone could have the lowest Mecicine check (-2) and just buy the Healer's Kit and overshadow a trained "Doctor". Think of a First aid kit in real life. Do you know what "everything" in the kit is for? Maybe you know a few things, but consider a person who knows nothing about medicine (-2). And consider that the person in need of assistance doesn't have a minor cut, he's in the brink of death. I think the materials are uselss without the know-how.

 

So the healer's kit shouldn't be an automatic success. It should amplify your Medicine capabilities. Maybe it gives you a +2, maybe a +5, but it's still more realistic than it always working. It could also have a clause for IF you are proficient in medicine. (eg: The bonus is doubled if you are proficient in medicine, OR Auto-Success only if you are also proficient in medicine)

 

With that change, Spare the Dying, looks like a minor improvement (a guaranteed success), which also saves some cash. The healer's kit would be nerfed but only if you are clueless about medicine.

 

Someone was comparing Light vs Torch. Other than the money savings, Light is actually a slight improvement because you don't need to occupy your hand with a Torch. You could cast light on part of your clothing, your shield, your weapon, etc. And a torch could fail under some conditions (Water, Strong Winds, etc).

 

(Reply to #46)

Delazar78

the "heal 1 hit point when you stabilize" is out of the door with the nerf, but it's back through the window with the Healer feat...

 

I don't know if I like that... 

 

Player 1: "AAARGH!" (-15 hit points)

Player 2: "here, move next to you, get my healing kit, and bring you back to 1 hp, ready to fight, in only 6 seconds!"

Monster standing right there, blood still on its claws: "D'oh!"

 

This is seriously challenging my suspension of disbelief...

#48

Makaki

Jan 16, 2015 14:08:54

I Didn't look at the healer feat (p167) until now.

 

Bur IF someone does have the feat, why even stabilize? Just gor the 2nd half, and use the heal instead. At least on the first attempt, as It does have the short/long rest clause.

 

As for my previous post, I forgot that most bonuses on the current rules are usually in the form of "Advantage". So instead of plus bonuses, the kit could provide an advantage role if not proficient in medicine, auto-success if proficient.

 

#49

Delazar78

Jan 16, 2015 14:14:07

I wonder if the line "The creature can’t regain hit points from this feat again until it finishes a short or long rest." refers to both uses of the Healer feat.

 

In the end, I think it just doesn't sit right with me that all it takes to bind the wounds of a dying person is 6 seconds of time...

#50

EnglishLanguage

Jan 16, 2015 14:22:46

D&D hit points have always been incredibly wonky.

 

Hit points in D&D(and this goes for every edition) tend to work best when you don't think too hard about how exactly they work.

(Reply to #49)

EzechielDantan

Delazar78 wrote:
(Reply to #15)

Uchawi

Paraxis wrote:
(Reply to #38)

CCS

mellored wrote:
(Reply to #53)

AaronOfBarbaria

CCS wrote:
#55

Saelorn

Jan 17, 2015 20:31:39

Makaki wrote:
(Reply to #55)

Makaki

Saelorn wrote:
#57

Fallstorm

Jan 17, 2015 23:44:42

cranebump wrote:
#58

JohnLynch

Jan 18, 2015 1:10:38

If someone doesn't want to play a class they shouldn't be forced to. Clerics and dedicated healers are the most optional class in 5th ed.

#59

Fallstorm

Jan 18, 2015 6:47:47

JohnLynch wrote:
(Reply to #59)

arderkrag

Fallstorm wrote:
#61

Brock_Landers

Jan 18, 2015 7:14:41

arderkrag wrote:
#62

iserith

Jan 18, 2015 7:25:46

Fallstorm wrote:
#63

Fallstorm

Jan 18, 2015 9:43:39

arderkrag wrote:
#64

Fallstorm

Jan 18, 2015 9:43:48

arderkrag wrote:
(Reply to #63)

arderkrag

Fallstorm wrote:
#66

RCanine

Jan 18, 2015 13:03:57

Makaki wrote:
(Reply to #66)

Makaki

RCanine wrote:
#68

CCS

Jan 18, 2015 15:03:49 		Well, it's all going to be downhill for this edition now that the Errata train has begun rolling....
#69

Fallstorm

Jan 18, 2015 15:13:28

arderkrag wrote:
#70

arderkrag

Jan 18, 2015 15:33:38 		Hey, if you're unlucky enough to get hit a lot, expect to die a lot.
(Reply to #68)

arderkrag

CCS wrote:
#72

Vahnyu

Jan 18, 2015 16:37:52

arderkrag wrote:
#73

arderkrag

Jan 18, 2015 17:13:55 		DM fiat so players can survive is silly. I don't pull punches. Adventuring's tough, but not impossible. An all-fighter party can survive just as readily as an all-cleric party, in any edition.
#74

Noon

Jan 18, 2015 19:34:36

I think you have to have NPC's go with the PC's to set up a retreat point (some choke point where some blocking object can drop into place after the PC's) or just plain have some horses tied somewhere. But beyond that, since enemies move at half speed in order to attack, running away is fairly well supported. It's not like old editions where you could move your maximum speed AND attack.

 

But really players who really lose investment are just not invested in a game that has PC death as possible in it. Play a RPG where PC death isn't possible (ah, of course they want have their cake and eat it too - want the thrill of 'dangerous' combat, so having a system where they can't die will take that away. But can't stand actually dying)

#75

Vahnyu

Jan 18, 2015 19:58:09

Noon wrote:
#76

RCanine

Jan 18, 2015 20:40:46

Makaki wrote: