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| #1Tempest_StormwindMay 17, 2015 14:51:18 | I see "does this stack?" questions a lot. The funny part with all of them? "Stacking" doesn't exist in 5e.
The term "stack" appears in exactly two places in the basic rules: the phrases "stack the deck" and "stacks of empty crates". The equivalent rules are on combining magical effects, which makes no mention of anything close to stacking rules (i.e. there's no indication that 2+2 is anything but 4 in this edition, with no bonus types or anything).
The closest you get to any form of bizarre "stacking" is if you have multiple Armor Class equations (i.e. an unarmored Monk / Barbarian / Dragon Sorcerer who casts Mage Armor on himself), and even then it's simple (the equations are independent; you choose one individual result from those equations to be your armor class. There's no indication that these are bonuses to some other AC - i.e. it says "your armor class is X" instead of "you add Z to your armor class - so this is hardly a surprise). This is actually made explicit on page 14 of the PHB.
All of this is reinforced in the rules - "stacking" is mentioned in the PHB index, and it simply refers you to the rules on combining magical effects. There's no such thing as stacking in this edition - it's baggage from another game that you're bringing with you here.
(On a related note, there's also no indication that two doublings is anything but a quadrupling in this edition; "D&D multiplication" where the term "double" actually meant "add the base value again" is similarly not found anywhere in the rules. This just comes up less often, since there's very few ways to get multiple doublings - i.e. Death Strike with a sling against a skeleton - compared to quite a few ways to combine magic. But I digress.)
I started this thread to include a list of similar terms from previous editions that no longer exist in 5e, and are explicitly called out as such in the PHB index. (I originally wrote most of this as a reply to another thread, but it seems to have gone missing, and this topic comes up a LOT.) Recognize that when you're using any of these terms, you're either referring to a previous edition, or using slang to discuss something else from the rules.
First, Vocabulary. These are words that refer to something already in the game, but the terminology is different. (For now, it's just entries from the PHB index.)
Next, Legacy terms. These are terms that are still in common parlance, but do not refer to something that actually exists in the rules. (Chances are the concept still exists, it's just handled by an entirely different system instead of a simple name change.)
Finally, Setting terms. These are part of the rules, but are only applicable to specific campaign settings and not anywhere else. Again, I'm focusing on words from the PHB here. (Note that there are more than just group names in here - a couple old mechanical concepts became setting concepts in this edition!)
(It's worth noting that the same is not true of the word "psionic". Psionics do have a specific rules implementation in 5e so far - although it's not anything more than a tag on some creatures' innate spellcasting ability, usually on creatures that don't use components and have similar thematic lists (such as an invisible Mage Hand). There's nothing else on it so far - but it does exist as a separate concept in 5e.)
And this doesn't even get to changes in terminology across editions that aren't included in the index at all - for instance, the 4e concepts of "minor action" and "implement" are similar to the concepts of bonus actions (well, mostly) and spellcasting focus items, but they don't appear in the index, so they aren't on this list. It still doesn't make much sense to talk about minor actions or implements in 5e, any more than it does to talk about THAC0 or Orisons.... or, indeed, stacking.
Let's all work together to make sure we're discussing this edition when we're discussing this edition. |
| #2ArtifactMay 17, 2015 15:24:10 | Nice post, Tempest.
An atiquated term I still use in our games is 'demihuman' (sometimes spelled demi-human). I don't use it so much as a game term but as another way to identify non-humans.
Instead of saying 'non-human' clerics, it's just 'demihuman' clerics. More D&Dish, less generic I think |
| #3durntaurMay 17, 2015 16:36:03 | From the list you've started with you include terms that I think are easy enough to parse, such as "skill check" or "save", that they don't cause confusion; they represent concepts that are still present in the 5e. However, "stacking" does not represent a concept that exists in 5e and a list of such terms would be far more useful than a list of technically incorrect, though that is the best kind of correct, terms that simply satisfy a pedantic parsing of the rules.
"Save ends". |
| #4GrazelMay 18, 2015 10:34:11 | Not a bad list but I do disagree with a couple of the listed items.
Save - While there's no rule for a "Save" this is an accepted shorthand for saving throw and has been for multiple editions. While it may not get used in the text of the books any more (like some older "save vs. X" notations) it is still a game mechanic. Save is like hp, a shorthand for a longer term used for quickness and ease of use. Specific terms like "Reflex save" (something some of my players keep using as they're still in a 4e mindset) would be incorrect but I've figured out that every time they've used it they mean a Dexterity saving throw (or Dex save for short).
I can't say as I've seen magic-user (hyphenated) in use for some time. I have seen "magic user" as an alternate term for "spellcaster" though.
My table still uses AoO as an alternative to OA but again just out of habit. Using old terms when you've played editions for years that used them can be hard to change but while an archaic term may be used it's still covering the same mechanic and in the case of AoO it's close enough ot the new term to be easily understood.
Skill Check - While they may have dropped this as an official term it's still an obvious term. It's an Abitlity Check using a specific Skill rather than just the Ability Score. I believe the devs at WotC have even used the term Skill Check in tweets. While it may not appear in the index or printed rules, it's sort of like Save, hp, and other shorthand terms used to cover another term, or subset of a term. Not all Ability Score Checks involve using a skill after all and when you're talking about such checks it's easier to say "skill check" when not referring to say an "Athletics Check" which is again shorthand for the longer, more formal Strength (Athletics) Ability Score Check.
Just becase a shorthand or common term was an official / longhand term in a previous edition doesn't mean it's no longer valid in this edition. Some terms obviously aren't part of the base game in the latest edition and can be confusing (Base Attack Bonus and THAC0 for example). They aren't totally off the board though as THAC0 is an alternate rules module in 5e for example.
Punching, pick locks, open locks, and pick pockets aren't so much game terms and descriptions of a character's actions that fall under Ability Score Checks, and having to type that out is why I still prefer to use skill check as it's a clear and obvious indicator of what game mechanic is being used, so while not game terms they are valid for this edition otherwise you're saying a character can't pick pockets of a wealthy merchant, or pick the lock of a treasure chest. Treating them as a specific skill without houseruling or optional modules that further break apart skills is a misuse of the terms though.
As for the comment on implements, this is again a case of term versus common language usage. While it may not be a game term and they are part of the term "Focus", implement is still a useful way to describe certain types of foci. Also an implement is also a tool used by a profession to do their job.
Overall what 5e has done is cut down on the number of game terms, often by lumping related concepts together into a broader game term, so there's less rules confusion and more room for DM interpretation of how the rules work. Having Implement as a term separate from Focus means that every spell would have to specify Focus and Implement in it's use or classes that used one or the other wouldn't have access to the spell. This generalization of terms has caused some confusion in some people who are used to 3.x hyper-specificity of terms. That's a big pardigm shift in 5e from 3e, going from an inclusionary rules system (if the rules don't explicitly define it you can't do it) to an exclusive rule system (if the rules don't specificially forbid it you can probably do it). This can only be accomplished by limiting game rules terminology without limiting language usage.
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| #5Tempest_StormwindMay 18, 2015 11:51:50 |
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| (Reply to #4)Reius |
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| #7gregscMay 18, 2015 21:14:11 | I don't think Save belongs on the obsolete list. In the Jackalwere stat block (pg 193 of the MM), the Sleep Gaze action includes the phrases, "On a failed save," and "A creature that successfully saves" |
| #8durntaurMay 18, 2015 21:24:47 |
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| #9Tempest_StormwindMay 18, 2015 21:48:36 |
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| #10FFSAAMay 19, 2015 5:03:11 |
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| #11iserithMay 19, 2015 6:04:18 | Keyword search the Basic Rules and you'll find it's lousy with "save," so I wouldn't consider this slang at all. In fact, the section on saving throws, page 62, says: "A saving throw—also called a save—represents an attempt to resist a spell, a trap, a poison, a disease, or a similar threat." |
| #12Mommy_was_an_OrcMay 19, 2015 10:07:43 |
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| #13arnwolf666May 19, 2015 11:57:33 | blink stacks with blur and the armor spell. Very nice defensve stacking. And I can still get a shield spell in their also. |
| #14Tempest_StormwindMay 19, 2015 12:35:00 |
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| (Reply to #14)arnwolf666 |
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| #16AaronOfBarbariaMay 19, 2015 12:34:30 | An interesting thought on the topic of "stacking":
Stacking rules don't exist to allow the combination of different bonuses to the same trait or roll, they exist to disallow particular combinations.
If there are no stacking rules, as there aren't in 5th edition, then you have a ring of protection, bracers of armor, and a cloak of protection and all of their bonuses to AC apply (though the bracers do have a stipulation that they can't add to armor AC).
If there are stacking rules, as there are in 3.5, then you have to know what sort of bonus the ring (deflection), bracers (armor), and cloak (also deflection) provide, and then you are likely restricted such that you can't have both of the deflection bonuses (and the bracers no longer need the stipulation that they can't add to armor AC mentioned specifically in their description because both being armor bonuses means a general rule that they can't be used together exists).
People asking "do these things stack?" are stuck in the older edition mindset, and probably haven't realized that stacking rules are disablers (you can't) rather than enablers (you can). |
| #17Tempest_StormwindMay 19, 2015 12:47:37 |
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| #18FFSAAMay 19, 2015 12:50:08 |
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| (Reply to #18)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #20Tempest_StormwindMay 19, 2015 13:00:05 |
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| #21MarandahirMay 23, 2015 12:05:20 | Sounds like a Paladin-only party would be an interesting game. |
| #22FFSAAMay 23, 2015 12:26:06 |
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| (Reply to #21)randl |
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| #24MarandahirMay 23, 2015 14:18:49 | I wouldn't because, say, I've got a Horned Paladin and a Vengeance Paladin, and both use the same smite. They have vastly different philosophies, and thus their power is coming from different places. They add up together. |