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| #1EinlanzerAug 26, 2014 14:25:52 | Even though I kind of liked the higher-than-normal level 1 HP from 4e, it is arguable that all it accomplished was making combats drag out longer than needed at most levels, so I understand why they culled it.
On the other hand, one of the things that bugs me about all editions sans 4th is how your starting HP is essentially the same as your by-level HP gain when it intiutively feels like it should be higher. I.e. the fact that your HP basically doubles by going from level 1 to level 2 is and always has been a little silly. I was reminded of how silly it was when I fired up old BG1 the other day and was getting destroyed by everything at level 1 in one hit. In short, the low HP pools particularly at level 1 make everything feel a little too random and luck-of-the-draw to the point that often lower-level gameplay feels more dangerous than higher level gameplay. Granted, it was a bigger problem in the older grittier editions of D&D, but you can still feel the effects here.
In light of this, I'm considering experimenting with 4e style starting HP. Instead of just getting your full single HD worth of HP plus con mod, you get your full Con score with your reduced, level-up HP value at first level instead, giving PCs roughly 5-10 extra HP at first level. I.e. a cleric with 14 constitution will begin with 14 + 1d8 or 14 + 5 (19) HP instead of the normal 10. I may balance it by either requiring per-level rolling or reducing the flat increase by 1 so that you get exactly in the middle of the range, which would actually make PCs have slightly less HP at high level. I also feel like this would make encounter balance more flexible for low-level parties.
Considering you level so quickly anyway in the first few levels, I'm not sure I mind the first couple of levels just being made easier for PCs and let it sort of be a 'tutorial' section of the game.
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| #2pauln6Aug 26, 2014 14:45:40 | I thought about this but settled on 2HD at level 1. Normal human adults have 2d8 HD so just allow 1 maxed and 1 rolled HD at level 1. It has the added bonus of making level 1 short rests more worthwhile. |
| #3QuietNinjaAug 26, 2014 14:55:31 | I think you're overthinking it. Paul has a good idea, and then you skip the HD addition for the second level and the game will balance out. |
| #4NovacatAug 26, 2014 14:56:17 | I think the best solution for fragile 1st level characters is simply to not use 1st level. I've already resolved to consider 3rd level to be "base" and will probably begin my campaigns at 5th. |
| #5IxidorRSAug 26, 2014 14:58:59 |
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| #6Brock_LandersAug 26, 2014 15:19:38 | In the 1st packet characters started with Con score + 1 HD, or you could go with the 1st Ed monk/ranger route (2 HD at 1st level) or SWSE (3 HD at 1st level). |
| #7EinlanzerAug 26, 2014 15:24:45 | Maybe it's just a bias, but I really like con score + 1 HD. If nobody thinks it's totally game-breaking I'll probably just use it. |
| #8Brock_LandersAug 26, 2014 15:30:47 |
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| (Reply to #2)seti |
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| #10BW0222Aug 26, 2014 16:50:34 | Easier starting rule which doesn't require changes to the rules.
A) HPs as 2nd-level. At first level, PCs get the hit points as if they were second level. At second level, you get no additional hit points. A ranger with a 14 con, would normally be 14 hp at 1st and 22 hp at 2nd. PCs start with 22hp at first and remain at 22hp until third level.
B) Easier starting module. Simply include a lot of easier combat encounters are first level, bonus XP, etc. Avoid obvious encounters with creatures which can easily dish out more than 6hp on average per hit. I.e. no magic missiles.
C) Bonus equipment. Each PC has their choice of two potions of either aid, armor of agathys, or false life. Perhaps one PC has a wand of aid with four charges. Bonus HP help prevent one hit drops, while are likely to be used.
Also remember that even if someone drops... they aren't dead for at least three rounds.
I personally don't like changing the core rules since it brings up the issue of why goblins, orcs, and other NPCs don't have massive starting hit points. If they do, you get into the same 4E issue that you haven't protected the PCs so much at 1st-level and simply made combat take twice as long at lower levels. |
| #11EinlanzerAug 26, 2014 17:15:44 |
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| (Reply to #11)seti |
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| #13Tony_VargasAug 26, 2014 19:43:33 | Well, you do get max hps at level 1. That's like rolling average on 2 dice. And, you do get CON mod at every level which really adds up at higher levels. Compared to CON score at first level, for instance, CON mod at every level gives you more hps, total, past a certain level, as long as you have a positive modifier - with a 12, not until the teens, but with a 20, at 5th.
As far as lethality goes, I ran HotDQ at Encounters last week, 1st level, a couple of PCs with single digit hps, but no character deaths.
Of course, 4 out of 6 PCs dropped, and with the healers among them, essentially sat out most of the session, but, they didn't.die. |
| #14FitzMojoBobAug 26, 2014 21:24:51 | I'm really not much in favour of inflating characters' starting hit-points at all. I'm barely in favour of giving them max HP at 1st level. It seems to me that it does no harm to reinforce the idea that it's a dangerous world, and that adventuring is a dangerous business.
It's not like it take long to roll up a new 1st level character, anyway. |
| #15FFSAAAug 27, 2014 8:22:27 | Just start at level 4. Making your characters want to ambush house cats or do bare-knuckle boxing competitions in town until they can get out of the apprentice levels so they aren't likely to die in 1 hit isn't really a great idea. |
| #16KarnosAug 27, 2014 8:38:44 | The game is pretty easy as-is at level one. Out of three sessions, I've seen 0 deaths at level 1. On top of that, level 1 is almost always only one single adventure, that 300 xp required for 2 is very quick to reach.
I've seen these threads over and over, but they are really just trying to fix a non-existant problem. |
| #17FFSAAAug 27, 2014 12:03:13 |
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| #18autolycusAug 27, 2014 13:05:07 | Character death isn't necessarily a bad thing. Even TPKs can be fun.
Some players like to feel that the world is treacherously dangerous and that when they finally have a character that makes it to level 5 it is an accomplishment to be celebrated - rather than an inevitability.
All depends on your table and how you like to experience the game.
Starting at 3rd woudl alleviate most of the issues people who want a much lower risk level for their characters. And it removes the need to add any house rules for HP. |
| #19EinlanzerAug 27, 2014 13:53:31 | As I see it, the problem is that level 1 actually tends to be more dangerous than any subsequent level when it should be more of a tutorial/prologue section that is a little easier than subsequent levels.
Moreover, it just doesn't make any logical sense that you would start with such few HP and that it would nearly double on your flrst level. Compare that to, say, the proficiency bonus, which starts at +2 and rises very gradually from there, or to skill points in 3.5, which gives you 4x the per level amount at 1st. It's something that never made sense and always needed re-tuning. I'm slightly disappointed they reverted from 4e on this one thing.
Starting at 3rd level or so is a solution, and I've considered it, but I'd also like to have a houserule in place that has more reach so that I don't feel 'forced' to do that. Looking over everything several times, I don't see where just giving everyone a few more HP at first level causes any problems. The main question I have is, based on peoples' experience with lower level parties, do people think con score + partial HD in place of full HD + con mod ends up being too generous. If the consensus is that it is, I may just do a flat +5 or something. |
| (Reply to #4)Jenks |
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| #21KarnosAug 27, 2014 15:40:52 |
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| #22NoonAug 27, 2014 16:59:09 | <quote>to the point that often lower-level gameplay feels more dangerous than higher level gameplay.</quote> A character thats taken half an hour to make and has a 50% chance of dying might seem more at risk than a higher level character which has taken 2 hours to develop to hat point and has a 6% chance of dying. But they aren't, they're equal.
You have to factor in the number of hours lost to a player if their character perma dies.
Someone risking a half hour in char gen is not the same as someone who's risking 2 hours of play. |
| #23TiaNadiezjaAug 27, 2014 17:23:56 |
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| #24Xeviat-DMAug 28, 2014 1:59:31 | My primary reason for wanting more hp at first level is so combats do take longer. As they stand now, they take 2 or 3 rounds typically, and can be over in 1 round easily.
I don't think the problem is only for 1st level, 2nd, or even 3rd. The CR 8 green dragon's breath weapon does enough damage to kill many 8th level characters. |
| #25EinlanzerAug 28, 2014 5:38:24 |
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| (Reply to #19)Telfiel |
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| (Reply to #19)Kazadvorn |
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| (Reply to #27)Telfiel |
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| (Reply to #28)Kazadvorn |
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| #30DevilbassAug 28, 2014 9:52:14 | I'm about to start running a game, and I've decided to slightly boost starting HP. Like Kazadvorn, I want to keep the element of danger in the game, as it creates good tension, but I also want to reduce the odds of one-shotting the PCs. So my solution was this: at 1st level, characters have HD*1.5 + CON mod HP.
This ends up with lower HP than CON score plus HD, but more than normal, so we'll see how it goes. This way one-shots are definitely still possible without crits, but unlikely for most PCs. |
| #31AkeishaAug 28, 2014 18:46:31 | Normally we have characters start out with the maximum hit points plus Consitution modifier at first level and let it go at that.
But with the introduction of the new edition and the seemingly high number of character and/or party wipe-outs with so few rolls, we are trying the following house-rule for starting hit points to see how it works out: 'Maximum Hit Points (as per character hit die) + Constitution Modifier (if any) + Constitution Score' |
| (Reply to #9)UngeheuerLich |
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| #33autolycusAug 29, 2014 2:22:07 | You could also let hit points stay exactly how they are and just do a way with the "instant death" rule.
If you take enough damage that you would have been instantly killed, instead of dying you just check off a failed death save.
Easy fix without any extra math. |
| #34SamrinAug 29, 2014 5:56:15 | Being knocked out of the fight remains possible in the first round still remains possible with that rule though.
Increasing durability eliminates the chance of one lucky roll knocking you out before you have a chance to do anything. |
| #35Trance-ZgAug 29, 2014 7:47:29 | how about...?
hit die d6; 1st lvl HP 10 + con mod, 3+con mod per level
d8; 1st level HP 12 + con mod, 4+con mod per level
d10; 1st level HP 14 + con mod, 5+con mod per level
d12; 1st level HP 16 + con mod, 6+con mod per level,
basicaly, it gives +4 flat HP per level and one HP less per level later on. It breaks even at level 5. It gives more durability to low lever characters and give little more danger to high level character because of fewer HP, as IMO it should be.
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| #36autolycusAug 29, 2014 8:43:58 |
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| #37The_JesterAug 29, 2014 8:59:08 | The big effect I see from this change is that individual low level fights are much less likely to be deadly. And likely 2nd level fights as well. If the party walks into a fight injured, only then will they be risking death. It also makes low level healing a little less impressive. Rather than healing everyone 50% of their hitpoints (or more at higher levels), spending a Hit Dice will heal someone 25% of their hp. That short rest is much less effective, and thus less desirable.
The pace of adventures will have to change, as you need to have twice as many low level encounters to impart the same sense of danger. But those encounters might drag a little bit as offensive resources are not doubled. There will be more reliance on at-will powers.
I'd suggest playtesting it first. That's the best way to see the effects in play. |
| (Reply to #37)Kazadvorn |
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| #39Xeviat-DMAug 29, 2014 12:02:27 | If you raise monster HP and player HP by Con score, then low level encounters will take longer and thus deplete more resources. That's what I want; I want a fight to last a couple of rounds and have little chance of ending in one hit; I'm okay with a crit having a chance to drop someone in one hit, though I'd prefer if "level appropriate damage" was closer to 1/4th typical HP, so 4 hits, or 8 rounds at 50% miss chance, would be required.
But, again, I like tactical combat in my games. |
| #40CommanderCrudAug 29, 2014 12:15:11 | If anything, I think the starting HP are too high. No way I'm giving my players more HP! |
| #41Brock_LandersAug 29, 2014 12:24:57 | This is so a taste thing, some extra HP (not the sauce) at 1st level is groovy; Dave Arneson suggested starting 1st level characters with 4 HD. |