Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 LordOfTheChance Aug 22, 2014 13:36:11	My group is about to fire up a campaign and I would like some input for PC stat generation.   I recently played in the AL @ Gencon and those characters are created using the stat array frrom the PHB and 27 buy points.  For most of my 2ed & 3.X gaming career I've rolled stats and had my players do the same when I'm DMing.  I've seen some amazing and horrendous rolls...often  at the same table.     At the moment I'm leaning towards the array.  To mix it up I may add a 1d4+1 roll after stats are assigned and let the player add that to their point buy total.    How do you do it?
#2 docdoom77 Aug 22, 2014 13:44:15	I hate rolling, but I am not a fan of the array presented.  I wish there were more options in the PHB.  Hopefully the DMG will be more expansive on this subject.
#3 ChrisTheS Aug 22, 2014 13:46:14	Because my group dislikes point-buy (and who am I to say no to them?) I let them roll... one set of scores.  No rerolls.  If they don't like what they rolled, they can take the standard array.
#4 Dooflegna Aug 22, 2014 13:48:07	ChrisTheS wrote:
#5 masterfat78 Aug 22, 2014 14:03:17	Emerkol actually came up with a rolling plus point buy system that Im thinking of using. Roll 3d6 with set stat and then have 20 points that you can use to bring stats up to 16. Im not a fan on rolling for stats in a system that gives you stat buff or feats. It would give a lucky roller a huge head start if he rolled good enough not to need any stat boosts. Whereas I feel they short changed point buy and atat arrays buy only giving them 27 points. I could just increase the point buy rate but I did some testing and Ems method actually gave some consistant plus total with vary different end scores and is a nice middle ground.
#6 Slyck314 Aug 22, 2014 14:10:11	In our campaign we rolled, placed all the rolls into a single pool, and the sorted the rolls with a serpentine draft into player # columns of six rows. Then each player picked a column as his own. This way we had all the diversity of rolling but the rolls were redistributed relatively fairly.
#7 MechaPilot Aug 22, 2014 14:20:37	LordOfTheChance wrote:
#8 Dooflegna Aug 22, 2014 14:22:15	A bunch of different stat generation methods:   3d6, in order, no re-rolls 4d6-2, in order, drop highest, reroll 6s Point Buy 2d6+6 (guarantees a non-abyssal score, but keeps everything average) 4d6-2 and an injury/misfortune/death table, no rerolls Array 4d6, drop the highest. "Like Gygax intended." 4d6, drop the highest, in order. Then, you get 1 reroll and 1 swap 3d6, assign as liked, 1 reroll 6d20, in order 4d6, drop the lowest, re-roll if les sthan 8 1d10+8 any order 4d6, drop the lowest 3d6, in order; you may do 4d6, drop lowest for one stat, but then you have to go 4d6 drop highest for two stats 3d6 for all 6 stats. You may replace one Prime Attribute of your chosen class with a score of 14. 2d8 in order, no rerolls, reroll the highest 4d6, drop lowest. Reroll 1s and 2s. Assign to stats.
#9 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 22, 2014 14:28:28	When I DM, my players can choose how they would like to generate their scores from any of the following methods:   1) Roll 4d6, drop lowest die, to make a set of 6 scores to arrange as desired. They can roll as many sets of 6 as they want to, so long as they don't try to delay the start of actual game-play by doing so.   2a) Use standard point buy.   2b) Use the default array of 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.   I actually prefer my players to roll because that creates characters with little quirks (strong wizards, smart barbarians, etc.) that are very entertaining without forcing the player to choose such a quirk at the expense of some other area.   It also helps my wife and I decide what sort of characters we are going to play when we aren't sure (her and I roll scores in order, but I wouldn't force that choice on anyone).
#10 Eldren73 Aug 22, 2014 16:50:18	I dislike standard arrays, because no one is exceptional, which was the primary gripe I had with 4E.   I dislike point-buy systems, because if you're awesome at one thing, you automatically have to be, at best, average, and at worst, awful, at everything else.  It presents straight mathematical balance, but no real balance or fun factor.   Being powerful is NEAT.  It's what players often engage in D&D for.  This said, I know it can cause headaches for DMs when their players have stats that let them bulldoze everything, which leads to an ongoing arms race as the DM tries to find the right balance where their uber-statted players are feeling challenged without feeling overwhelmed.  Tends to throw systems for building level-appropriate encounters right out the window.   Typically our group uses 4d6-drop-the-lowest.  You roll three sets of stats, and pick the set you like best.   Back in 2nd Edition, you required stat minimums to be part of certain classes.  My friend would take those stat minimums and let you have those minimums, plus an appropriate die to close the gap between the minimum and 18.  So if you were playing a class that required a 12 Strength, you got 12, and you rolled a d6 to end up at a score between 13-18.  Stats that didn't have minimums were rolled with a straight 3d6, and you took what you could get.   Classes no longer have stat minimums in 5th Edition (which I'm grateful for).  I kinda like a modified version of my friend's 2nd Edition system.  You get 12 in your class' primary stat.  If you've chosen a race that adds a bonus to that stat, you add the bonus, then use an appropriate die to close the gap between your score and 18.  So if you get a 12 in your Intelligence, and you have a race that gives +2 to Intelligence, starting you off with 14, you get to roll a d4, meaning you're going to have an Intelligence of 15-18 to start.  All stats not relevant to the class are rolled on straight 3d6, and you assign those numbers to the "secondary stats" as you like.  It insures you're going to be awesome at the class you're playing, but may not be particularly overpowered at everything else.
#11 Centauri Aug 22, 2014 16:56:02	LordOfTheChance wrote:
#12 Eldren73 Aug 22, 2014 17:04:31	Centauri wrote:
#13 Centauri Aug 22, 2014 17:21:38	Eldren73 wrote:
#14 Kalandri Aug 22, 2014 18:06:13	A method I want to try: have a massive table of all possible point-buy permutations. Each player rolls on this table and uses the corresponding array (alternatively, roll twice and pick the array you like better). This method manages to curb min-maxing, ensure non-suckage, and produce organic/quirky characters all at the same time. I don't know how fun it is, though, because I've never tried it.
#15 Qmark Aug 22, 2014 18:14:55	Consider also: 63gonuts Your scores can be whatever the the hell you want, as long as they total exactly 63.   Want 11/11/11/10/10/10?  Sure! Want 18/18/14/7/3/3? Sure! Want 20/20/20/1/1/1?  O....kay. Want 58/1/1/1/1/1?  Probably not.     I'm half tempted to go ahead and allow a hypothetical '58 guy', just to see what happens
#16 Emerikol. Aug 22, 2014 18:22:15	I blogged my die rolling system.  See my link to my blog below.    This thread discussion reoccurs every so often so I thought I'd preserve my approach.   link to my blog   I would never want to have identical stats for all characters.  It would almost never be that way in reality.  Slight differences such as those produced by my system wouldn't bother me.  As long as everyone is minimally effective I'm fine with it.  I also dislike fighters always being dumb and wizards always weak.  I don't think nature works that way generally.  I do want a generally effective character.
#17 Qmark Aug 22, 2014 18:41:28	Emerikol. wrote:
(Reply to #3) Rhenny	ChrisTheS wrote:
#19 Sailing_Pirate_Ryan Aug 22, 2014 20:03:31	I prefer rolling because point buy and array methods often lead to very same-y characters within a particular class.    OTOH, I have two players who prefer point buy because they like to be in complete control of who their character is. One of them is vehemently opposed to rolling.   So, how to offer something for both camps? My solution is to offer two options at character generation: Nature or Nurture.   Nature is 4d6, drop lowest, re-roll 1s, but scores are assigned in order from STR to CHA. The rationale is that you are blessed with natural talents, but those talents may not be ideal for your desired career path. I've personally rolled up a fighter with (after racial mods) 16 STR, 12 DEX, 14 CON, 17 INT, 14 WIS, and 14 CHA. It sure would've been nice to shift that 17 to CON, but that's not how the dice fell. The solid mental stats, though largely useless to the Fighter class, meant that he was more than your typical dumb brute. I selected his background accordingly.   Nurture is Point Buy. The number of points available is determined by the lowest point total of any Nurture characters in the game and the ability score cap is 18 (not 15). The benefit is that you get to assign your points as you like, representing a person who wasn't born with as much natural talent, but made up for it through hard work and determination in the pursuit of their passion, possibly exceeding their naturally talented cohorts (who may not have rolled an 18 at all).   I'm not going to be running my homebrew game until after the DMG hits, so I haven't tried this out yet, but from the practice rolls I've done it seems lto work well enough.   How do others handle split desires at the table?
#20 CCS Aug 22, 2014 21:42:09	I leave it up to the INDIVIDUAL players. Each player is free to pick their stat generation method from among these options: 1) 4d6 drop the lowest, 2) Standard point buy, 3) choose an array. If you choose to roll, that's it. Whatever you get is what you've got. There's no re-rolling. Afterall, you could've played it safe & used one of the other options - but you CHOSE to gamble. Almost everyone always chooses to roll - because if they get lucky..... and you don't get lucky using PB/arrays, you just guarantee that you won't suck.
#21 Azzy1974 Aug 22, 2014 22:59:54	LordOfTheChance wrote:
(Reply to #20) Sailing_Pirate_Ryan	CCS wrote:
#23 Novacat Aug 23, 2014 1:19:37	I always take an array (or point buy), and players in my games always do as well. That said, I think the ability scores are less important in 5E than in some previous editions, so it doesn't bother me that in one of the games I play, I'm the only player that didn't roll.
#24 Brock_Landers Aug 23, 2014 1:47:47	Dooflegna wrote:
#25 Qmark Aug 23, 2014 1:50:05	If I don't expect my dude to live much more than half an hour, hell yes I'll roll and go.  If you want me to run this guy for a year or five, I want numbers I'm not "stuck with".
#26 Brock_Landers Aug 23, 2014 1:53:03	Qmark wrote:
#27 masterfat78 Aug 23, 2014 2:11:56	Brock_Landers wrote:
#28 Brock_Landers Aug 23, 2014 2:22:12	masterfat78 wrote:
#29 masterfat78 Aug 23, 2014 2:24:38	Brock_Landers wrote:
#30 Brock_Landers Aug 23, 2014 2:30:45	masterfat78 wrote:
#31 Emirikol Aug 23, 2014 7:49:30	..and the from the other guy:     Here' is my unlimited character generator (does 4d6-d+race and chooses top two depending on the class):   http://community.wizards.com/content/blog/4124231   I personally like the idea of Roll ONCE and if you don't like it you can take the array instead.       jh
#32 autolycus Aug 23, 2014 7:57:19	Our current campaign uses the standard array.   That way the whole stat thing is just a non-issue and players can worry about distinguishing their characters in other ways.
(Reply to #19) 1eejit	Sailing_Pirate_Ryan wrote:
#34 uglyvan Aug 23, 2014 13:16:55	one idea could be that, in exchange for high stats would require more xp to climb a level; my idea here is to multiply stats one with the other until you find the character you want:   example: 10x10x10x10x10x10 = 1.000.000   12x12x12x12x12x12 = 3.000.000   these scores could be handled by dividing by 10 AND score corresponds to a ninth-level character as for in 1E or 2E;   then you divide score by 2 for each level beneath 9 until you reach 1st level:   300.000  9 150.000  8 75.000    7 37.500    6 18.750    5 9.375      4 4.688      3 2.344      2 0             1       3.041.280 = 18x16x12x11x10x8   304.128 -- 9 152.064 -- 8 76.032 ---  7 38.016 ---  6 19.008 ---  5 9.504 ----- 4 4.752 ----- 3 2.376 ----- 2 0 ----------- 1
(Reply to #33) Sailing_Pirate_Ryan	1eejit wrote:
#36 Centauri Aug 25, 2014 11:03:02	Sailing_Pirate_Ryan wrote:
#37 Centauri Aug 25, 2014 11:09:43	Sailing_Pirate_Ryan wrote:
#38 Centauri Aug 25, 2014 11:12:10	Qmark wrote:
#39 DemoMonkey Aug 25, 2014 12:26:27	Interesting option for "heroic" style games. This option is clearly more powerful than the base line, but also offers players an interesting choice: focus on their strengths, or cover their weaknesses?   Give every player the standard array.   Then give every player, on top of that, a choice:   1) Raise your lowest stat to an 18 or 2) Add +3 to any one stat and +2 to any different stat.
#40 Grifford Aug 25, 2014 14:10:48	LordOfTheChance wrote:
#41 AH_schulerta Aug 25, 2014 14:19:08	Going to experiment on the next campaign with the middle result of 3d12+6, six times, arrange as you see fit. I hate characters with a 6 or lower for a stat.   AnyDice Results
#42 Centauri Aug 25, 2014 14:28:02	Dice roll methodologies always seem to revolve around minimizing the possibility of some undesireable outcome.   If the method you're using allows outcomes that you would ignore or modify, I don't see the point of rolling with that method. Either change the method so that those outcomes can't occur, or recognize that the only way to truly avoid a random chance of undesireable outcomes is not to roll at all.
#43 Regin_Vargtass Aug 25, 2014 14:33:52	I will try the following, starting the Tyranny of Dragons:   Choose one option: 1. Roll 4d6, drop lowest, assign to stats, or use standard array if you are not happy with the rolls. 2. Use point buy.   If I had thought about it before plagers started character generation, I might have imposed the rolls to be in order, but for now I am quite pleased with how this is turning out anyway. Also, rolling in order does not really play well with the idea of choosing race and class before stat generation, so you would have to change that anyway.   - Vargtass
#44 Polaris Aug 25, 2014 16:51:35	It's not RAW but so far I am having very good success in 5e with by doing the following:   1.  I modify the point buy slightly in two ways:  First I increase the points from 27 to 31 and secondly I permit the purchase of a natural 16 for 12 pts.  This enables a PC to buy the real "expected" array for 4d6 drop lowest (which is 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).    2.  I give my players an irrevokable choice at character creation.  They can either roll the 4d6 drop lowest or can use point buy.   3.  (For rolled characters only) Once you've finished your rolls, I give you an irrevokable choice:  Either take the scores you rolled or take the PHB standard array (which is worse than my point buy and thus a genuine risk while assuring a floor).   -Polaris
#45 CorwynnMaelstrom Aug 25, 2014 17:04:02	I allow my players to choose individually how they'd like to generate their characters:   1) 4d6 rolled six times and arranged as they please. 2) A 27-point buy.   In the event that they feel that they've screwed up their roll, I will consider a request for a reroll. What makes me grant a request is entirely based on my understanding of the character concept they are trying to create and the rolls they're sitting on. Generally a lack of positive modifiers, or perhaps a total of just a couple, is going to get approval. Higher aggregate stat bonus totals will usually only be fiddled with if something like multiclassing or feat selection will be problematic for the concept, or if the stats dont adequtely allow for the description (within reason) if the character.
#46 thecasualoblivion Aug 25, 2014 17:54:46	Back when we played AD&D our standard generation method was 4d6, drop lowest, arrange to taste, and cheat as much as you can get away with while doing so.   In 3E and 4E, we used point buy and had nothing but the utmost hostility for rolling. Given how important stats are in 5E, if we were going to play it we again would not consider rolling.
#47 Polaris Aug 25, 2014 19:40:36	thecasualoblivion wrote:
#48 MechaPilot Aug 25, 2014 19:44:57	Polaris wrote:
#49 JohnLynch Aug 25, 2014 20:03:24	Polaris wrote:
#50 Centauri Aug 25, 2014 20:10:34	Polaris wrote:
(Reply to #50) tallric_kruush	Centauri wrote:
#52 Ramius613 Aug 25, 2014 20:29:15	One idea I thought off tonight was have the players and DM roll the Array. Each player would roll 4d6, and the DM rolls once. With the DM rolling a d6+10 for the remaining stats <6. Then everyone use those numbers.
#53 The_White_Sorcerer Aug 25, 2014 20:57:06	Here's what I'm doing: A player can choose to use point-buy or just take the standard array, OR they can choose to roll their stats but if they do there's no turning back. No rerolls, no going back to point-buy. If you want base stats higher than 15, you gotta take the risk of base stats lower than 8.
#54 Kalandri Aug 25, 2014 22:12:34	I might go with:   Everybody rolls 4d6 drop lowest six times (business as usual). If the sum of your modifiers is less than +4 or greater than +8, your scores are too extreme and you'll have to re-roll.   If in the end you don't like your rolls, you can just take the standard array instead (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8).
#55 thecasualoblivion Aug 25, 2014 21:50:14	Not rolling. Not now, not ever.
#56 LordOfTheChance Aug 25, 2014 22:10:21	Grifford wrote:
#57 Polaris Aug 26, 2014 0:49:18	MechaPilot wrote:
(Reply to #36) Sailing_Pirate_Ryan	Centauri wrote:
#59 docdoom77 Aug 26, 2014 6:59:58	MechaPilot wrote:
#60 Grifford Aug 26, 2014 8:02:27	[quote="thecasualoblivion"] Not rolling. Not now, not ever. [/quote   Coward.
#61 Grifford Aug 26, 2014 8:02:39	thecasualoblivion wrote:
#62 Centauri Aug 26, 2014 9:34:59	Sailing_Pirate_Ryan wrote:
#63 thecasualoblivion Aug 26, 2014 9:37:34	Grifford wrote:
#64 Slyck314 Aug 26, 2014 10:00:33	Then use a rolling system that allows everyone to have relatively equivalent characters.
#65 Brock_Landers Aug 26, 2014 10:15:36	I do the old roll 4d6, and if they are not happy, they can take array/point buy.
#66 thecasualoblivion Aug 26, 2014 10:20:45	Brock_Landers wrote:
#67 Emerikol. Aug 26, 2014 10:33:13	My goals.... 1.  Avoid identical arrays for each class.  A liability of the pure point buy system. 2.  Allow for the possibility of non-primary stats being good.  The intelligent fighter for example. 3.  Have a set of stats that meet some minimal standard of quality.  Nobody wants a total lemon.  That does not mean they don't want to roll. 4.  Having a PC slightly better or slightly worse than another PC is not a problem for me.  It's actually realistic. 5.  Ensure a decent primary in almost all cases.  15+.   My blog has a system that achieves those three goals.   I think there is a legitimate position where you want a minimal standard but otherwise like some randomness.
#68 Emerikol. Aug 26, 2014 10:34:09	thecasualoblivion wrote:
#69 thecasualoblivion Aug 26, 2014 10:42:02	Emerikol. wrote:
#70 Slyck314 Aug 26, 2014 11:01:40	Or yiur players might see a powerful character in the party as a benefit to the whole group. And by no means dictates that they will be able to hog the "spotlight."
#71 Brock_Landers Aug 26, 2014 11:03:27	thecasualoblivion wrote:
#72 Centauri Aug 26, 2014 11:17:47	Slyck314 wrote:
#73 Centauri Aug 26, 2014 11:20:09	Slyck314 wrote:
(Reply to #72) Slyck314	Centauri wrote:
#75 Centauri Aug 26, 2014 11:46:12	Slyck314 wrote:
(Reply to #74) Kalandri	I like 4e's bounds on rolling (no sum of modifiers lower than +4 or higher than +8). There is some variability but no descrepancies so horrible that one character always steals the spotlight.
#77 Emerikol. Aug 26, 2014 12:09:16	thecasualoblivion wrote:
#78 Centauri Aug 26, 2014 12:16:43	Kalandri wrote:
(Reply to #78) Kalandri	Centauri wrote:
#80 Centauri Aug 26, 2014 13:59:49	Kalandri wrote:
#81 Masterfool Aug 26, 2014 16:20:36	It seems to me that the main 'pro' of rolling is that it introduces randomness into your array, which can be fun for some people (but not fun for others). Likewise, I think the main 'con' of rolling are that it makes some characters significantly stronger than others. (I guess some people enjoy this...?)   So to keep the pro but not the con, while also ensuring that your array is roughly as strong as the game designers intended, I came up with this:   1) Roll 4d6 and drop the lowest, for each of your stats, as stated in the rules.   The mean value of a stat, determined in this way, is roughly 12.24. (I just did a brute-force calculation using R.) So to make your array's strength 'standard', just do the following vector addition, rounding to the nearest integer:   2) finalArray <- rolledArray + 12.24 - mean(rolledArray)   OR perhaps more clearly: for each stat, finalStat <- rolledStat + 12.24 - mean(rolledArray)   If all players use this system, their characters will all have roughly the same array strength, AND the randomness and internal variance of their arrays will be preserved. Also, under this system, players can re-roll to their hearts' content, without introducing a upward bias in their stats.   The upshot is that some players can choose point buy and others can use this system within the same group, and no one will be screwed over (as point buy has been balanced to be roughly equal to a 4d6 drop lowest system). Also, your group's stats will be roughly as strong as the designers intended, which will surely lead to a better experience.