Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 FallingIcicle Jul 07, 2014 18:04:21	One of the things I liked about 5e (in theory) was using the six abilities for saving throws. I think it was a good idea. Unfortunately, the implementation of this has been less than stellar, to put it kindly. I haven't even been able to find a use for Str, Int and Cha saves. Yet, there are several spells in the basic game that could have used them.   Major Image/Minor Illusion/Silent Image: An Intelligence (Investigation) check allows you to see through the illusion. Why not an Intelligence saving throw? Maze: An Intelligence check is required to end the spell. Why not an Intelligence saving throw? Earthquake/Web: These spells allow a Strength check to break free. Why not a strength saving throw?   They had several opportunities to have Str, Int and Cha saves, but deliberately chose not to use them. Why? They could have let Strength saves break free from restraints and paralysis effects like hold person. They could have had Int be the default save against illusions. Cha could have been used against charms. Etc. They still wouldn't have been as useful as the big three saves, but at least they would have seen some use!
#2 zgrose Jul 07, 2014 18:15:38	Since you're asking why, I'll offer my reason, YMMV:   Saving Throws prevent/reduce something that is about to happen to you Ability Checks overcome something or allow you to do something   Saving Throws against something generally happen once, at the time the effect comes into play Ability Checks are generally repeatable   I'm sure someone will find some exceptions but that's the basic metaphor.   So if you could save against Maze, you would save to avoid being Mazed. If you were Mazed, you would make ability checks to get out.
#3 Rastapopoulos Jul 07, 2014 18:17:46	FallingIcicle wrote:
#4 FallingIcicle Jul 07, 2014 18:18:56	zgrose wrote:
#5 GhostStepper Jul 07, 2014 18:20:50	The 6 save system has me missing Star Wars Saga edition which had only 3 defenses instead of 5e's whopping 7. Monte Cook flew the coop of 5e development and his system has a tidy 3 defenses as well.   I'm going to give 5e a shot, as is, but i have a very strong feeling that im going to homebrew Fort, Ref, Will back into the game with a 4e twist.
(Reply to #4) zgrose	FallingIcicle wrote:
#7 Polaris Jul 07, 2014 18:32:11	zgrose wrote:
#8 darius Jul 07, 2014 19:18:18	It looks like many of the more reasonable suggestions for spreading out the D&D Basic spell list saving throws among the unused saves (STR, INT, CHA), take from CON and WIS saves for the most part. This leaves DEX with an even more lop-sided lead in the number of spells DEX saves against. Maybe that is the reason for leaving out STR, INT and CHA saves.
#9 viper5 Jul 07, 2014 22:39:34	Perhaps I'm cynical, but I think the lack of str/int/cha saves is because if you look at the 3e spells, they're only against con/dex/wis. If they come up with something new and original is not so similar to an existing spell that you'd be left wondering why they force different saves, then those might have the 'lesser' three used. 5e is trying to harken back to how 3rd did it, but some people got nervous with the decoupling of saves/defenses from 4e, which is where they touted the 6 saves. Now, I think at the time they were really excited about getting to have 6 distinct saves that would come up at different times and all be more or less of similar value. Then they got into the rules (especially spells) and found that based on how saving throws were defined before and how these spells interacted, they were having trouble finding places to put in the new saves. People above have even mentioned how some saves could very easily be Cha instead of Wis - those two are notoriously difficult to separate. That's why 4e and Star Wars Saga Ed used either/or for the Will defense. Maybe they'll come up with something interesting. Maybe they'll encourage DMs to use other saves on the fly when they feel like it, or if a player comes up with an interesting reason for using another save. But (cynically again lol) most likely we'll just be back to 99% the three saves from 3rd being used, with the rare off chance of a new save being used in some obscure way. Let the homebrewing begin...
#10 pauln6 Jul 07, 2014 23:31:40	FallingIcicle wrote:
#11 The_Jester Jul 07, 2014 23:37:17	We'll see what the PHB holds in terms of spells, and the Monster Manual.   They might be focusing on the Dex/Con/Will to allow room for a rules module that swaps to Fort/Ref/Will defences.
#12 Luis_Carlos Jul 07, 2014 23:44:46	Str Save - spells like spider web or for special attacks like bull rush or grapping.    Int Save - for some mind afecting powers like psionic telepathy.   Cha Save - For no-magic social interactions, sometimes Cha saves helps for divine magic (it would be like praying asking for protection againts unholy powers), or maybe it can be too important for allies and mass battles. For example a warlord would use cha save to avoid his squad to be demoralized.    A spellcaster could use powers with area effect and special save to avoid "friendly fire". For example the ogre bodyguards would be fighting, and a spells about tentacles with grapple check. The stronger ogres almost wouldn´t be affected.
#13 pauln6 Jul 08, 2014 0:05:19	Charisma should really apply to compulsion spells.
#14 Ramzour Jul 08, 2014 1:45:39	FallingIcicle wrote: