Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Zardnaar Jul 07, 2014 22:50:46	During the playtest I thought dex based fighters were overpowered and you are a chump for playing a strength based fighter. Now we havesome real rules so we can have a play with them. Generally I still think dex is better than strength due to saving throws, initiative, missile weapons, dex based skills over strength skll but  we will see.    One difference form the playtest packet is the loss of d8 finesse weapons, Straight away this brings the dex based fighter down to d6 damage. The strength based fighter will be able to use a d8 weapon for a net gain of +1 damage. 1 extra damage is not really that exciting and I suspect dex is still better but it is at least something in favour of the strength based fighter.    Now one could also go with a two handed weapon and here the strength based fighter does have an advanatage. Damage is now 2d6 or 1d12 vs d6 to weigh up and that is +3 or so damage over a strength based fighter. This comes at the opportunity cost of using a shield though which is +2 AC. I would call that a real choice there so it is probably about even.    Well that is the basic attacks taken care of. It seems the chump thing to do is use a d8 weapon in one hand with a shield. Use a big weapon or go dex based at this points. The next thing to consider iis defenses.    The trade off between a dex based fighter and strenght based could ocme down to the AC difference between light and heavy armor. Without rolling the dice you are mor or less stuck haivng a +3 bonus in your primary stat at level 1. Light armor is cheaper at level 1 but one can get hold of chainmail with your starting cash. With a shield this will give you a base AC of 16 while the light armor user will have studded leather + shield for an AC of 17. Wearing medium armor with a 14 dex will also gie you a base AC of 18 (14+2+2) just like heavy armor. In general you will gain +1 AC by being a strength based fighter which combines with the +1 damage from using a bigger weapon. Gong with medium armor however you can get to 19 AC once you can afford half plate for 750gp which is likely level 2 or 3 if you save your pennies. 200 gp will get a heavy armor user to AC 19 as well so the strength based fighter ow gets a +2 AC bonus probably at level 2 or 3 over Mr Dex based fighter.    The math also changes as the dex based fighter levels up. At level 4 if they take a stat boost his AC will go up to 18 while the other armor users AC remains static. Heavy armor user may get to AC 20 however via  plate armor once they can afford 1500 gp which is probably level 3-5 I suppose.    At this point Lt AC 18 Medium AC 19 Heavy AC 20    Lt and medium armor has the benefits of a higher dex score so you really have a choice of versatility over the higher AC, pick your level of protection offered and the +1 damage bonus.   By level 8 the math changes again however, Mr Light armor user now hits AC19 ignoring all other modifiers. Mr medium armor is now in le suck boat and has no real advanatge over the light armor fighter except he probably has a bigger weapon for +1 average damage. I am assuming the strength based fighters are boosting their strength bonuses as well but they do have the choice of taking a feat so the light armor user does involve an opportunity cost but then catches up in damage and gains a bonus of +1 to hit so it depends on how good that feat is the strength based fighter picked.    And that ladies and gentlemen seems to be the pros and cons of the various armor types. Your combat style (styles) chosen will also effect this as well of course. The strength based fighter gains a +1 or 2 AC bonus over the dex based fighter and a minor damage bonus while the high dex based fighter gains the benefits that a high dexterity provides. The medium armor fighter long term seems to suffer but not by a massive amount and only at level 8 and it has some benefits at certain levels and at a cheaper price but seems to offer a nice hybrid between the extremes from level 1-7.    Note I did not include two handed weapons in this comparison but the trade offs there are a lot more obvious. Deal more damage and have a similar AC to the dex based fighter, or be a dex based fighter. My gut feeling is that the minor AC and damage boosts do not compensate for the better saves, skills initiative, and versatility at range the dex based fighter has and encumberance will not matter if the dex based fighter has a 10 strength or so. It is not a complete washout though in favour of the dex based fighter.
#2 Zardnaar Jul 08, 2014 3:11:18	Complete brainfart, missed the rapier a d8 finesse weapon. minor AC boosts at some levels playing a str based fighter in heavy armor.
#3 Ramzour Jul 08, 2014 3:15:23	The Rapier is a d8 Finesse weapon in the Basic Rules.
#4 JohnLynch Jul 08, 2014 3:38:24	Benefit of playing a strength based fighter: get to play the strongman archetype or a knight in shining armour.   Benefit of playing a dex based fighter: get to play the swashbuckler or fencer archetype.
#5 Steerpike84 Jul 08, 2014 6:51:04	Don't forget that, in general anyone in heavy armor is going to be a lot better at climbing, swimming, and jumping. Yup.
#6 Lawolf Jul 08, 2014 7:45:32	Rapier does d8 damage. Duelist style is +2 damage. You can use a shield while using duelist style for +2 AC.    So damage is d8+2 (6.5 average) vs 2d6 reroll 1s and 2s once (8.33 average). The Dex fighter has a much better ranged attack (longbow), much better skills, much better initiative, better saves, and higher AC. So is 1.83 damage per hit worth all that, maybe...   There might also be a Dex based two handed weapon some day as well.
#7 Rastapopoulos Jul 08, 2014 7:18:43	Zard:   Assuming a score of 20 in either Str or Dex, because with the rules as are you can easily reach a 20 even if not at the very start. And best armor possible, plus shield, for maximum AC.   Strength Build Longsword: 1d8 +7   (5 from Str, 2 from Dueling) AC: 20   (18 from Plate, +2 from shield) -- cost 1,510gp Skills: +5 to Athletics Str Save: +5 vs ?????????????? Initiative: ---   Dexterity Build Rapier: 1d8 +7   (5 from Dex, 2 from Dueling) AC: 19   (12 from Studded Leather, +2 from shield, +5 from Dex) -- cost 55gp Skills: +5 to Acrobatics, Sleight of Hands, Stealth Dex Save: +5 vs area attacks, a great number of spells, traps, all of which tend to appear quite often in game. Initiative: +5     The only thing a Dex build comes behind is AC, and even then by only 1 point (and your gear costs 1455 gp less).   And to me the biggest difference is that if you go Dex, you can basically dump Str entirely as the only thing it will give you that Dex doesn't, is bonus to 1 skill and maybe better chance of bashing doors and bending bars. That's more points free for Con or something else.   If you go Str, on the other hand, you'll probably have to spend some points in Dex too as neglecting it entirely can be unwise. With monsters doing a lot of damage and enemies/players having a chance to be taken down in 1 round with a lucky roll, Initiative becomes a big deal... and Dex saves alone is a major factor not to ignore, as Dex saves probably cover in average half the saves you make in the game.    Offense-Defense wise... Dex gives you the same as Str except -1 on AC, which to me pales in comparison to the benefit of having +5 on Dex saves in terms of overall defense. Plus it gives a lot more on the side.     Mechanically, the only reason I see for going Str right now is if you want to play two-handed weapons.
#8 MrHotter Jul 08, 2014 7:28:28	I've tried a combo str/dex fighter. I took a 14 in dex so I can get wear medium armor. The +2 to ac (max dex bonus for medium armor) makes the AC about one less than a heavy armor wearer but I can use a breastplate and not have disadvantage on stealth. It may not be as good as putting everything in one stat, but it makes for a more versitile character.    My dex and str bonus are both +2, so I get a bonus on ranged weapons and initiative. When I raise stats I'll be +3 on STR rolls. With a shield and deuling fighting style his AC and damage are both pretty good.  (That reminds me that I need to make sure that a duelist can use a shield).    At first I was trying to make a STR based halfling fighter (I like the idea of a full plate wearing halfling), but I hated to waste the +2 DEX the race gets on making an 8 DEX into a 10.
#9 mellored Jul 08, 2014 7:29:54	Str saves are useful against grapples, bull rushes, and disarm checks.
#10 kill_the_wiz_first Jul 08, 2014 7:36:54	I don't know why Dexterity plays such a pivitol role with Intiative in the first place (throughout many editions). A more sound choice would be applying Intelligence or Wisdom based on knowing what to do, quick thinking, logical reasoning, deduction of a situation, response to a circumstance. Dexterity plays off these two other attributes and you can't react quickly without thinking quicker what your objective is (to strike first, usually).   Oh yeah, simplicity. This whole making the game streamlined and easy for new players really gets in the way, often.
#11 mellored Jul 08, 2014 7:42:37	Dex is very much an overloaded stat.
#12 Lawolf Jul 08, 2014 7:48:13	I thought that in the new rules you can resist a "shove" using Dex. Also there is no disarm in the new rules.    Rememer people, you can use a shield while using a Dex based weapon and still benefit from duelist style for +2 damage.
(Reply to #12) MrHotter	Lawolf wrote:
#14 Polaris Jul 08, 2014 7:51:49	In the land of DND, the 20 Dex man is king.....   -Polaris
#15 Rastapopoulos Jul 08, 2014 7:55:09	mellored wrote:
(Reply to #9) Steerpike84	mellored wrote:
#17 Ramzour Jul 08, 2014 8:05:20	Lawolf wrote:
#18 Karnos Jul 08, 2014 8:29:42	Strength based fighters can carry more loot.
#19 Hebitsuikaza Jul 08, 2014 8:31:11	The Dexterity fighter just outright wins due to the fact that Dexterity is a god stat and Strength is just out-right all and all useless.   Rastapopoulos's analysis is spot on except... yeah, he forgot that the Dexterity fighter also gets no penalty to move rate while a heavy armor wearer has -10 to their move rate. Unless both are Dwarfs. That means a Dexterity fighter moves 150% the speed of a Strength one.   Strength has been made almost an utterly worthless and pointless stat in the game. There is no reason whatsoever for it to exist any more. Even the Strength class is no longer using it when using their best build.   But... you know... this was an analysis when it comes to tanking. Dexterity wins.   What about when you drop that shield and the Strength fighter grabs a great sword and the Dexterity fighter grabs two short swords?
#20 Rastapopoulos Jul 08, 2014 8:33:37	Karnos wrote:
#21 Rastapopoulos Jul 08, 2014 8:39:28	Hebitsuikaza wrote:
#22 Dracones Jul 08, 2014 8:58:22	Heavy armor doesn't have a movement penalty for Str based fighters.   Anywho, here are some damage numbers for a 11th level Fighter vs a 17 AC. 4 encounters with 4 rounds each encounter, one short rest giving back an action surge. 10% crit chance.   Show Longbow fighter with archer (0.65*(9.5)+0.1*(14))*3*18 = 409.1 total damage   Greatsword and GWF (0.55*13.3333 + 0.1*21.6666)*3*18 = 513 total damage   Longsword with duelist (0.55*11.5 + 0.1*16)*3*18 = 427.95 total damage   Two weapon fighting (0.55*8.5 + 0.1*12)*4*18 = 423 total damage   Halfling two weapon fighting (0.55*8.5 + 0.1*12)*4*18*1.05 = 444.15 total damage   Halfling shortbow archer (0.65*(8.5)+0.1*(12))*3*18*1.05 = 381.3075 total damage   Halfling Longsword with duelist (0.55*11.5 + 0.1*16)*3*18*1.05 = 449.3475 total damage
#23 Karnos Jul 08, 2014 9:16:00	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#24 Polaris Jul 08, 2014 9:29:30	Karnos wrote:
#25 Phobos Jul 08, 2014 9:34:52	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#26 Dastion Jul 08, 2014 9:53:56	Don't forget that you can replace an attack with a grapple or shove attempt.  While you can resist these actions with Str or Dex, you can only make those actions with Str.   The ability to move enemies or knock them prone isn't something that should be so easily dismissed, especially since the Fighter gets more attacks in a round than anyone else.
(Reply to #21) mestewart3	Rastapopoulos wrote:
(Reply to #25) Steerpike84	Phobos wrote:
#29 mestewart3 Jul 08, 2014 11:08:24	"Realistically" dex should always be attack bonus and str should always be damage bonus.
#30 kill_the_wiz_first Jul 08, 2014 11:16:23	mestewart3 wrote:
#31 Rastapopoulos Jul 08, 2014 11:20:52	mestewart3 wrote:
(Reply to #31) mestewart3	Rastapopoulos wrote:
(Reply to #29) Steerpike84	mestewart3 wrote:
(Reply to #33) mestewart3	Steerpike84 wrote:
#35 Dracones Jul 08, 2014 11:46:18	mestewart3 wrote:
(Reply to #35) mestewart3	Dracones wrote:
#37 Hurin88 Jul 08, 2014 12:07:21	mestewart3 wrote:
#38 MrHotter Jul 08, 2014 12:30:39	Another thing to keep in mind is that a group would have a use for someone with a high STR. Since the Rogue already has DEX covered it would be good to have a high STR as a fighter to bash some doors, lift some gates, clear out some rocks, and tip some cows.   There's also the self respect aspect. What kind of fighter wants to walk around looking like he's in the town militia when he could be stomping around looking like Iron Man?
#39 Polaris Jul 08, 2014 13:22:28	MrHotter wrote:
#40 Person_Man Jul 08, 2014 13:27:30	My reading of the current rules is that Dex is indeed more important and powerful then Strength.   Having said that, being Str based does net you +1 AC (from platemail), +3ish damage (from greatsword/maul), and you get superior Grapple and Shoving (Bull Rush or Trip) checks.  You can Grapple and Shove as an Attack Action, which means a Fighter can do it multiple times per round.   And I'd be willing to bet real money that the PHB will include a subclass and/or Feat option that dramatically improves these options.  If there's an "Improved Trip" option we could easily see the return of "lockdown" builds.  (Though the change in Attack of Opportunity rules makes that harder, since it's only triggered when they leave your reach, and not out of a threatened area).
(Reply to #39) mestewart3	Polaris wrote:
#42 Zardnaar Jul 08, 2014 17:30:20	Hmmn ok guys I noticed that the heavy armors are -1 AC from earlier editions of the game.  Would it break the game to boost them by +1 AC and how about if the rapier doesn't exist as a weapon option if you are running a game set in a semi historical world and weapons like the rapier and guns do not exist? 14th century era Europe sort of thing or the crusades.     Another idea is bring back weapon finesse from 3rd ed but let it deal dex damage as well so you can have dex to hit and damage in the game at a cost and at level 4. ANother nerf to dex would be to make dex to hit and dmage a fighting style so you can have it but not for free.
(Reply to #42) mestewart3	Zardnaar wrote:
#44 Zardnaar Jul 08, 2014 18:01:06	It just seems really odd having a dex based fighter being hands down better than the strength based one. Probably shouldn't complain I have a strength based Barb/Rogue in Pathfinder and one of my players has a str based assassin in C&C but they are kind of outliers using specific builds as such.
#45 Polaris Jul 08, 2014 18:13:59	mestewart3 wrote:
#46 Zardnaar Jul 08, 2014 18:18:58	Thatnwas it yes Polaris. Due mto the advantages dex has if you have medium armor+ moderate dex I think yu should have a +1 AC bonus over a dex based fighter and in heavy armor +2. Or they could let heavy armor gain +1 dex and medium up to +3 dex. It was the lighter armors have had the AC nerfed.    I have been testing out no dex penalty to wearing armor in my homebrew,.
(Reply to #44) mestewart3	Zardnaar wrote:
#48 Rastapopoulos Jul 08, 2014 19:35:47	Zardnaar wrote:
#49 Polaris Jul 08, 2014 19:57:33	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#50 Zardnaar Jul 08, 2014 20:00:08	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#51 Zardnaar Jul 08, 2014 20:02:31	Polaris wrote:
(Reply to #49) mestewart3	Polaris wrote:
#53 Polaris Jul 08, 2014 20:55:56	mestewart3 wrote:
#54 mestewart3 Jul 08, 2014 21:01:30	But then I can't have a good lightly armored elven bow/dueling fighter, and then I will cry... Do you really want to make me cry Polaris?
#55 Polaris Jul 08, 2014 21:29:18	mestewart3 wrote:
#56 Zardnaar Jul 08, 2014 21:38:19	mestewart3 wrote:
#57 FFSAA Jul 08, 2014 22:40:19	Zardnaar wrote:
#58 Zardnaar Jul 09, 2014 0:05:58	FFSAA wrote:
#59 CVB Jul 09, 2014 2:36:13	mestewart3 wrote:
#60 Anarchrist Jun 09, 2015 21:24:18	An interesting and simple solution to the AC differences of Dex and Str Fighters is to make two tiers of shield - bucklers with +2 AC and Tower shield requiring 16 Str to use effectively and giving +4 AC. Furthermore the Duelist fighting style should be active when using a buckler (or small shield) and not active when using a Tower Shield. This way you still have a solid "DPS Tank" Dex build but also have a full turtle Tank build for Str based Fighters. It fits with the different focusses as Strength becomes about giving you extreme ability either in defence or offence (through GWF), While Dex allows for a flexible and balanced alrounder set of builds.