So I recently got into 5th and I love it. Best edition ever.
I love that Everyone has a viable attack in combat regardless of their primary stat, and Dex-based fighters are now fully supported by finesse weapons.
My only hangup is that Strength is now severely underpowered if you use Dex for attack. A ranger or monk with a high Dex can dump strength without a second thought, because it's only good for skills and Str saves. Meanwhile, a Strength-based fighter (or a Str ranger or monk for that matter) still needs Dex for AC unless wearing heavy armor.
Does anyone else see a problem with this? It seems to me that for too many characters the optimal option is to dump Strength, and a 10 or 12 Strength for my Ranger or Warlock doesn't do anything for me that an 8 Strength wouldn't.
Personally, I think Finesse weapons should use Dex to Hit, but still use Str for extra damage.
Honest Question: If you're going Strength why are you not going for Heavy Armour?
There is carrying capacity and saves to consider, but to be honest yes, strength charisma and intelligence are all easy stats to dump. The problem is that dex and con have huge impacts independent of class, and wisdom is one of the most important defensive stats regardless of class, while int, str, and cha are generally important because you have a class ability that encourages/demands use of those stats.
This basically requires a deep systematic overhaul to fix and probably isn't doable without a lot of work.
Str isn't that weak. If you want a character that can generally get up in peoples faces and mash them with large weapons, while wearing the best armour, then you want strength.
A lot of dungeon hazards can also require strength to bypass (climbing, jumping, breaking, lifting, etc).
The larger strength weapons tend to do more damage than the finesse weapons, that's about 1-2 points more damage per attack, not counting the heavy two handed weapons. To me it balances out.
Azylynne wrote:
arderkrag wrote:
In some ways I think it's kinda cooler that STR is more dumpable than CHA in many peoples eyes.
But I think the issue is more DEX has so many uses.
STR is used for a large number of combat manevuers and Shoving Targets prone can be very helpful at times.
Carrying capacity
Using heavy armour without loss of movement.
Athletics is actually a very useful skill, as it covers climbing and jumping.
Some thrown weapons can use str
Finesse weapons cap out with the rapier at 1D8 piercing (or quaterstaff in the hands of a Monk),
You can use two Rapiers with the Dual Weilder feat, but.... any sensible DM will have all the NPCs in the World look at you with a mix of distain and pity, even the ones that repeatdely stab them too death.
I have been toying with the idea of:
Emphasising Wisdom as the Perception/Awareness ability score and using it for Initative and some ranged attack rolls (bows and crossbows) instead of DEX.
And moving some of the "Wisdom is willpower" into CHA saving throws instead.
Ulfunnar wrote:
With feats strength has better feat support unless you are an archer.
Take a look at Ramzour's Six Saves system. It makes all the abilities important, so that none of them are dump stats.
Houserule that dex doesn't add to damage.
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
The issues over Hold Person are minor. It can be fluffed as a conjuration (chains), and evocation (bands of energy), or a psychic attack (mental paralysis) but seriously, if it keys off strength to balance out the saves does it really matter?
One thing I have noticed is that that players who espouse the superiorty of dexterity also complain about jumping and climbing not using dexterity or how unfair encumbrance seems to be. The system will never a be a true reflection of the real world but there are balancing factors set into the game for the right reasons. Like it or lump it.
Dexterity is still slightly too good but stick to limits on ammunition, encumbrance, and lower damage on finesse weapons, and bear in mind that classes with Dex saves need them due to lesser armour and lower hp. I'm not seeing a massive imbalnce myself despite the hyperbole.
Slyck314 wrote:
Ulfunnar wrote:
Thanks for the responses guys. I think altering the written spell saves is too much work for me right now, but it's a reasonable thought. I'm tempted to rule that Str always adds to damage, though that doesn't make sense for crossbows. I'll probably just play as written for a while.
Strenght for melee, INT for ranged (your ability to quickly assess and find a good target). I think that's reasonable. Encourages people not to dump their INT stat too.
So you gotta be a scholar to be a good archer?
One of my players PC is a twohander fighter that just jumped a 15 foot street from the top of a building to another building with a strength athletics check. He is also the leading dps in the group and doesnt even have the greatweapon feat yet, so no strength is not under powered.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Yeah. I wasn't sure how else to address such a strawman. It's almost like he was trying overly hard not to address my point directly. It was weird.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Frankly there are archery tradiotions and explainations for just about every stat. Excpet maybe charisma, and a magic archer might be able to get away with that.
Shasarak wrote:
WIS for aiming is a nice idea (bows, x-bows, blow guns, firearms). Keep DEX for slings (try using a combat sling, or an atl-atl, you'll see what I mean) daggers, darts, etc. and STR for thrown heavier weapons like spears, axes, rocks, etc.
PER(ception) as it's own ability score is a better one, lol. But...I've been over that here a few times, and it's too..."Un-D&D-ish" for most. The basis of that was to nerf both WIS and DEX, by making PER it's own score. It effects aiming, initiative, and is your 'passive perception' skill. But I digress.
I don't think STR is too weak, though, as several have pointed out. Heavy armor, big-ass weapons, and following incumbrance rules makes STR valuable. Also, I use terrain in fights. Smart monsters will thunder wave you off a ledge in my games. 
If you nerf DEX damage, then rogues/monks/rangers/bards won't be able to fight well as they should, and as fans of those classes want them to. A burly guy wearing metal plates and carrying a huge axe is still going to take more damage, and deal more damage, (on average) than the lithe guy with leather and a cute little blade.
Of course, the casters will probably out-damage, and out-utility everyone, but that's another re-occuring topic here. 
seti wrote:
What about ranged attacks? I can see adding a strength bonus to a ranged attack's damage, but then you're getting MAD. In an ideal world we'd see (IMO):
- STR: Damage bonus and physical restraint saves
- CON: HP and poison and disease saves
- DEX: To hit bonus and area of effect saves
- INT: Arcane Magic and Illusion saves
- WIS: Initiative, AC and fear saves
- CHA: Divine Magic and Enchantment saves
But D&D is a simplification so we instead have what we have.
tehsquirrely wrote:
It's also very likely that one "attack" does not necessarily equate to one sword swing, in the cinematic sense. Just as HP don't entirely reflect physical punishment, the attack and damage rolls don't need to reflect a single attack or strike. Battleaxes (Str) and rapiers (Dex) are statistically similar if used one-handed; the rapier might have struck the target twice in the time it took the axe to swing once, but since the axe is heavier and hurts a lot more if it connects, the results even out.
(Reasoning like this, combined with weapon reach, was part of the reason why weapon speed rules went bye-bye after 2e.)
Orethalion wrote:
1eejit wrote:
I could totally see just using strength for all damage bonuses to missile weapons (other than self-propelled slug throwers/modern firearms).
Bows are often made to accomodate different strengths...the default bow may just do no damage, but with some tweaking, it could allow for strength bonus to hits.
Crossbows are the same. Cranking the bow is more strength related than dexterity related and that's where the power of the shot comes from.
If people use encumberence rules then Strength becomes more important too.
I really don't think that Strength is underpowered.
Strength gets better melee damage (and has secondary ranged options under its purview).
Dex gets better ranged damage (and has secondary melee options under its purview).
Strength has better AC ranges associated with it (via heavy armor).
If you want to build a "stealthy strength based character" you can minimize your Dex requirement to 14 and still end up with the same AC as a light armor Dex based character. With feat use and a Dex of 16, you can still beat out primary Dex based characters in AC.
Dexterity gets, overall, better utility via skills use, saves, and initiative.
The classes that tend to use Strength as a primary stat tend to get much better overall synergy with the stat than the classes that use Dexterity (by which I mean, a Strength based fighter or barbarian has a higher damage output than any class as a Dex based ranged weapon user, and a Strength based fighter or paladin who combined heavy armor with a shield will have an AC that puts someone like a Dex based rogue to shame.
All in all, while actually playing the game, I have not felt that the Dex based characters usually outshine the Strength based ones.
My 2 cents.
Rhenny wrote:
seti wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
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Stength has better feat support, dex is better outside combat. IN Basic D&D dex is out right better.
Zardnaar wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
tehsquirrely wrote:
tehsquirrely wrote:
1eejit wrote:
The strength fighter in basic will deal more damage the dex fighter is just better at everything else and has more versatility at range as he gets better ranged attacks and can attack more than once. Throw in skills, winning intiative and surprise rounds via sneaking and the dex fighter probably is not to far behind in damage. At lower elvels the dex fighter also out damages the strength fighter.
The strength fighter in basic will deal more damage the dex fighter is just better at everything else and has more versatility at range as he gets better ranged attacks and can attack more than once. Throw in skills, winning intiative and surprise rounds via sneaking and the dex fighter probably is not to far behind in damage. At lower elvels the dex fighter also out damages the strength fighter.
Circumstantial, I just want to kill.
Brock_Landers wrote:
Eggnogfool wrote:
To answer the question, rage damage doesn't work with dex, and for fighters the break even point is when you average about 2 mainhand attacks per turn (so 3 dual wielding). With riposte/action surge, you should be there by 5th level. The break even point shifts a bit with weapon +, but only from 2.9 to maybe 3.2. Not sure how easy it is to find dual +3s, or if attunememt comes into play for dual wielders.
Brock_Landers wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
I could easily see using Wisdom instead of Dexterity for Initiative. It's not really about how fast you can move (otherwise there should be weapon speeds and such modifying it) but being able to anticipate what your opponent is going to do and act/react to counter such.
At this point I am going to implement a non-adjusted d20 roll for Initiative (maybe adjusted by a score for circumstance).
All of this discussion debating STR vs DEX comparing a single fighter build to another fighter build is boring. Come on, guys, you're being myopic.
Talk about it in terms of the War Bar, Clerics and Blade Warlock.
Talk about it in terms of Druids, Lore Bards, Sorcerors and Wizards.
That is where it really matters.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
(on a more serious note, INT and other "mental" stats have a lot to do with learning combat styles, or...anything, really. Some of the best athletes have high stats other than pure physical ones. Either because they understand the game better and learn from mistakes, they have the will to strive forward and perfect themselves, or just the pure "intimidation factor." Sadly, this is hard to represent with 5th ed's ruleset. I'm okay with it as is, since it would make things unneccessarily complicated-in my mind-but could be neat for a module. However, when you get down to it, physical ability and raw talent are the backbone of those things! And being purely on topic: Strength is only as useless as your DM makes it. DEX is only as OP as your DM makes it. I've been saying that since the beginning! Though if my players said "Can we use DEX to hit and STR for damage?" I wouldn't say no...)
Also, I always hated the "you're smart, so why aren't you good at pool, bowling, and golf?" trope. I usually answer with "Because TV lies to you" o_O
Well heck, then Lars Andersen has got to have at least half-a-dozen PhD's, amIright?
It really doesn't matter how well you can calculate arrow drop, wind speed, etc on your shot if you haven't trained yourself, or simply lack the physical ability, to actually take advantage of such information. People also don't sit down and calculate how hard and at what angle they have to throw a ball for it to get to another person, or though a small hoop: that's what practice and experience do, train your reflexes and muscles to make those shots without lots of high order brain function. Such also goes away fast in tense situations, like combat to the death. Pretty hard to anyone to try to spontaneously, mathematically calculate trajectories when their brain is in deep fight or flight mode and pumped to the brim with adrenaline.
Brock_Landers wrote:
I would like to point out to zard that a strength build fighter that doesnt use feats will probably have a good dex as well. He is more likely to dump int or cha before dex and will have plenty of feats to raise all his stats.