Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 8:38:01	Many people here have raised concern about dex being more powerfull than str or any other ability.   As those two are "main" combat abilities: attack rolls, damage, AC, init all heavilly lean to dex side.   Then maybe we should give str damage mechanics from 3E, that means that str should give one-and-a-half modifier to damage(round down) with melee attacks with two handed attack with weapons that have heavy or versatile properties.   also "great weapon" fighting style could be changed that those attacks get DOUBLE str mod to damage. I find this clean and simple without fiddling with some rerolls.
#2 mellored Sep 09, 2014 9:45:44	No.   Str allows for bigger weapons, which is more damage. Str allows for heavy armor, which is more AC then light. Attack rolls are the same.   Double Str on GWF would be too powerful.  If you want something simpiler, say +1 damage for each die rolled, which is still stronger, but not quite as OP.
#3 Lawolf Sep 09, 2014 9:50:41	I don't think Strength needs a boost. Strength weapons deal the most damage. If anything, there should be a d10 damage two handed finesse weapon. It will still deal less damage than a greatsword, but would give a greater range of possible archetypes.   For one handed weapons though, I feel Strength could use a boost. Or that the rapier should not exist.
#4 blake_marlowe Sep 09, 2014 9:55:22	i also agree STR needs no leg up on top of 2 handed weapons (none of which are finesse) & heavy armor.
#5 Jay_Ibero_911 Sep 09, 2014 10:02:35	There is also the fact that both Grappling and Shove are strength based, so those are two tactical options a dex based character loses out on.
#6 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 10:31:00	but now if you use either 20 dex and light armor sword and board or strenght 20 sword and board with duelist style you get   19 or 20 AC and 1d8+7(11,5 avg) damage while with 20 str with GWF and greatsword is 2d6+5(reroll 1s and 2s once) to average 13,33 damage.   does +1,83 damage (15,9% increase) overpowers +2 AC from shields? only if oponent needs 5  to hit you(80% hit rate) that is worthvie because that goes to 7(70% hit rate)  and its 14,8% more efective HPs.   and if it needs 17 w/o shields that goes to 19 with a shield, +100% in effective HP
#7 mellored Sep 09, 2014 10:41:01	Trance-Zg wrote:
#8 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 10:57:24	mellored wrote:
#9 mellored Sep 09, 2014 11:06:14	Trance-Zg wrote:
#10 Einlanzer Sep 09, 2014 11:11:33	I think it's well-balanced, especially if Encumbrance is used.  Rapier is 1d8, but I think it should have some built-in limitations due to the fact that it's piercing only.  I can't recall if there's anything in the rules stating such, but I'd probably make a house rule for it rather than change its damage type or make stronger one-handed non-finesse weapons.
#11 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 11:16:54	mellored wrote:
#12 mellored Sep 09, 2014 11:21:47	Trance-Zg wrote:
#13 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 11:21:49	Einlanzer wrote:
#14 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 11:31:10	mellored wrote:
#15 mellored Sep 09, 2014 12:14:49	Trance-Zg wrote:
#16 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 12:23:16	it's optimized for general use and simplicity, now you can get good boost for GWF if you get 2 or 3 special sources od damage dices and that is not that often.   giving double str mod give simple yet effective boost that GWF needs. at lvl 1 it gives +3 damage, as most character will have str 16 or 17.
#17 Zardnaar Sep 09, 2014 14:39:35	DPS/DPR is more or less irrelevent. The thing is the way surprise rounds work and that heavily favors dex and the stealth skill which anyone can get with the criminal back gound.. Also range is often a factor so I would estimate around 1 in 3 to 1 in 2 encounters the two handed weapon user doesn't get maximum damage on the 1st round or two of combat. An archer with a bow always get to have an attack relative to the strength based character. Check out the 1st encounter in Lost Mines of Phandelver for example and that is not a rare situation.    If every combat was a perfect melee slugfest the strength based fighter would be competitive and a high dex duelist or dual wielder no surprise has a large advantage when comparing a long to a hand axe or whatever at range.    Outside combat it is not even close the dex based PC blows the strength based one out of the water espicially if they have the criminal back ground and at that point you can start thinkiing why do we even have a rogue in the party.    The kicker is also the weapon styles as dealing uber damage requires the sharpshooter feat or the great weapon feat and multiple attacks. The archery sytle has +2 to hit which helps a lot to cancel out the -5 to hit penalty with those feats.    High dex characters should be tryin to surprise NPCs all the time and it is not hard to do due to crappy passive perception rolls most monsters have. Throw in some high dex spellcasters as well and you will be having blowout encounters.    And this excludes saving throws and initiative. Going first after a surpise round after a fireball/sleep spell is usualy a good game thank you.   The only thing strength is really good at is high damge and even then it is debatable and the dex based characters can often be in the close enough is good enough range. That is the only thing the strength based PC will be good at and I am finding it is debatable as to how good uber damge is.  3/5 of my PCs are dex based, the previous group was 4/5 and a deadly encounter is 2500xp and they are rocking their way through 4500xp encounters. They are now level 5 so it could be intereting to see how the bow Ranger and polearm fighter compare. At low level dual wielding fighter will also out damage a two handed fighter and have better versatility. At that point you have maybe a narrow corner case of the Barbarian doing his thing.    Its bad when peope take a high dex wood elf cleric and use shortswords over a strength based cleric. Note that race can also hide easy which feeds back to the surprise round thing. Whats better than +2 or +3 average damage?  Not letting your opponents get a turn thats what and that in effect is what a surprise round is.
#18 Rastapopoulos Sep 09, 2014 15:31:54	That's how I would do it in 5e:   --> DEX doesn't add to damage. Only STR does.   --> You can use the better of either STR or DEX for calculating to-hit with any melee weapon, not just "finesse" ones.
#19 Trance-Zg Sep 09, 2014 15:40:26	@Zardnaar, I'm aware of Dex uber problem, thats why I'm suggesting that str attacks(atleast GWF) get maximum damage when they close in.   and as I stated currently, if you have dueling style you deal less damage with two handed longsword attack than with singlehanded, hahaha!!
#20 Zardnaar Sep 09, 2014 15:51:24	Trance-Zg wrote:
#21 h347h50 Sep 09, 2014 16:47:53	Easy, solution. STR gives HP like con does as well. But only as a fighter/paladin class skill at some point.
#22 Moirdryd2 Sep 09, 2014 17:23:45	Encumbrance is a pretty serious use of Strength. As are things like Athletics which handles jumping and climbing.   I witnessed in my game tonight the party panic when one character went down in a fight with a Cleric of Bane who had Spiritual Guardians in effect. They wanted to drag him away from the fight, problem was he's a big half Orc with a full pack (thankfully he's a Warlock so not in heavy armour) however both characters are also pretty laden down with gear and armour and also cannot survive more than one turn more in the effect of the spell. Together they could move him but be one exposed to said Banite, inividually they were pushing encumbrance and with the spell halving movement it was looking bleak. Ultimately RP factors of the characters in the fight meant that the Warlock died anyway, but they had the option to try and save him (and would have succeeded). With lower strength (as they would have ad if playing the Dex combat stat) that option wouldn't have even existed.    Minutes later the same pair of characters were helping shoulder up a village gate vs Orcs and Ogres with a ram battering it down. Given player agency in events I let the Strength saves of the characters dictate the flow of the gate assault. Again if they'd have been the Dex based chars those gates would have fallen quicker (in the end the structure bore before the defenders ability to hold them closed did). There were also moments of jumping from one archery platform to another, across a couple of rooves and to an ogres back etc, some of these were just Athletics others were Athletics and Acrobatics. So a mix of Strength and Dex came into play.    Going pure one way or the other is, ultimately, just a choice. Sacrificing one thing for another is still sacrificing. I've never seen any stat as a dump stat because you never know in an RPG that plays up a story aspect what you may find useful. I say that because the session before (night time slipping between Orc & Ogre Warband camps and roaming gangs in snow, woodland and Ricky hills) Dex and Charisma proved to be king with Stealth, Deception, Persuasion, Performance and Acrobatics. Before that History, Arcana, Religion, Wis and Int Saves & Checks helped greatly in the adventure and the combats in the adventure because the Str and Dex options didn't give my players characters the advantages they sought.   Single stat options only apply in a 2D battlefield.
#23 Zardnaar Sep 09, 2014 17:44:16	Moirdryd2 wrote:
#24 Veleria Sep 10, 2014 0:27:16	when comparing delist to str builds remember str builds can use duelist too. worst case they are equal to dex. the tradeoff is really initiative vs heavy armor and the ability to dump dex frees up a few points with initiative on a saller swing value I don't think it's as strong as it was in 4e. in actual play i have not found str to be stronger or weaker than dex, it just appears that way on paper. tey are not 100% equal but the differences of gameplay seem to mitigate it.
#25 Uskglass Sep 10, 2014 1:42:33	Lawolf wrote:
#26 Trance-Zg Sep 10, 2014 9:30:06	Uskglass wrote: