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Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Eric888 Aug 11, 2014 18:04:04	Okay, try as I might, I cannot think of a situation where Bestow Curse is at all usable, and am ready to declare it the worst spell of this edition. 1) Affects only one creature. 2) Requires touching the creature. 3) Requires a saving throw too. 4) Produces a fairly weak effect compared to many more powerful spells of the same level, which happen to hit multiple targets (Slow, Hypnotic Pattern). 5) Requires concentration and lasts....1 minute. When I first saw the spell on the warlock list I got really excited about putting curses on rude people, then I read the spell..."You dare insult me, prepare to roll poorly on some things for a minute!" Honestly why do you need to cast it as a ninth level spell to make it permanent? Remove Curse is only third level. It would have been fine that way at third. Now my warlock can't curse anyone.
#2 Spekke- Aug 11, 2014 19:14:48	I have only seen an older version of the spell so I'm not sure what the PHB version looks like but what occurs to me is that this is a GREAT spell for high-powered NPCs to use on PCs. I can see some good role-play applications of the spell on both sides of the table. If, on the other hand, you are comparing it in terms of straight damage/control it may not be as useful, but that isn't the only metric that should be applied to a spell in my opinion.
#3 AaronOfBarbaria Aug 11, 2014 21:06:21	1) That's no different than prior editions. 2) Touching the creature makes the spell touch range, but you will note that the spell does not say "make a melee spell attack" which means no roll is required to succeed at this touch. 3) It only requires a save, not an attack roll and a save. 4) Having to roll a save every turn or waste your action doing nothing is not a weak effect, and yes it is weaker than the effect of hypnotic pattern, but hypnotic pattern doesn't carry 3 other options that might situationally (party composition or character build) prove even more useful - variety is something which is paid for, and rightly so. 5) Most debuff spells require concentration and are limited in their duration so that a single combat is about all the time they can be sustained... bestow curse, however, has a nifty feature of being able to be cast at higher spell level (5th or higher) for much longer duration, and without requiring concentration. Overall, it seems you aren't taking the over-arching changes to magic into account - permanent effects have been greatly reduced in their frequency, durations and ranges have been mostly cut down, buffs and debuffs have been largely made into short-term concentration spells to limit the prior-edition tactics of stacking a ton of buffs and speed-running a dungeon, or layering debuffs on tough enemies to turn them into pinatas. And all of the "bad touch" spells have been made easier to recover from because they more often than not, in prior editions, crippled PC so badly and for so long that it became normal in many cases to simply abandon the affected character are make a new one rather than attempt to suffer on through the overly punitive game rules.
#4 Eric888 Aug 11, 2014 22:44:01	In previous editions, and pathfinder, Bestow Curse lasted until removed with remove curse, not one minute. But how would changing the duration to "until removed with a remove curse" change its use in battle? Battles rarely take longer than a minute anyway. Admidetly removing concentration would be powerful, but they could easily fix that by saying you have to maintain concentration for the first minute and then it becomes permanent. It just unfortunate that the spell does not actually put a curse on someone unless cast as a 9th level spell.
#5 biopsiNC Aug 12, 2014 0:12:44	I vote for Grasping Vine as worst spell in the PHB. Compare to another 4th level conjuration, Evard's Black Tentacles, which creates difficult terrain in a large area, and does damage and restrains on a failed save. The only situation I can see where Grasping Vine would be helpful is if there is a deep chasm nearby - put the vines opposite the chasm from a creature and hope it fails the Dex save. The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bonus action.
#6 Psikerlord Aug 12, 2014 2:31:21	I agree bestow curse sounds terribad. If it says touch range, doesnt that mean a touch attack is required? Are there standard touch attacks rules in 5e, or do you have to look at each spell description?
(Reply to #6) AaronOfBarbaria	Psikerlord wrote:
#8 Grazel Aug 12, 2014 3:27:49	biopsiNC wrote:
#9 Acrilos Aug 12, 2014 4:26:23	Psikerlord wrote:
#10 dmgorgon Aug 12, 2014 7:32:45	In 2e, Bestow Curse is the reversie of the spell Remove Curse the bestow curse spell lasts for one turn for every experience level of the priest using the spell. The curse can have one of the following effects (roll percentile dice): 50% of the time it reduces one ability of the victim to 3 (the DM randomly determines which ability); 25% of the time it lowers the victim's attack and saving throw rolls by -4; 25% of the time it makes the victim 50% likely to drop whatever he is holding (or do nothing, in the case of creatures not using tools)--roll each round. It is possible for a priest to devise his own curse, and it should be similar in power to those given here. Consult your DM. The subject of abestow curse spell must be touched. If the victim is touched, a saving throw is still applicable; if it is successful, the effect is negated. The bestowed curse cannot be dispelled.

Post/Author/DateTime

Post

Eric888

Aug 11, 2014 18:04:04

Okay, try as I might, I cannot think of a situation where Bestow Curse is at all usable, and am ready to declare it the worst spell of this edition.

1) Affects only one creature.

2) Requires touching the creature.

3) Requires a saving throw too.

4) Produces a fairly weak effect compared to many more powerful spells of the same level, which happen to hit multiple targets (Slow, Hypnotic Pattern).

5) Requires concentration and lasts....1 minute.

When I first saw the spell on the warlock list I got really excited about putting curses on rude people, then I read the spell..."You dare insult me, prepare to roll poorly on some things for a minute!"

Honestly why do you need to cast it as a ninth level spell to make it permanent? Remove Curse is only third level. It would have been fine that way at third. Now my warlock can't curse anyone.

Spekke-

Aug 11, 2014 19:14:48

I have only seen an older version of the spell so I'm not sure what the PHB version looks like but what occurs to me is that this is a GREAT spell for high-powered NPCs to use on PCs. I can see some good role-play applications of the spell on both sides of the table.

If, on the other hand, you are comparing it in terms of straight damage/control it may not be as useful, but that isn't the only metric that should be applied to a spell in my opinion.

AaronOfBarbaria

Aug 11, 2014 21:06:21

1) That's no different than prior editions.

2) Touching the creature makes the spell touch range, but you will note that the spell does not say "make a melee spell attack" which means no roll is required to succeed at this touch.

3) It only requires a save, not an attack roll and a save.

4) Having to roll a save every turn or waste your action doing nothing is not a weak effect, and yes it is weaker than the effect of hypnotic pattern, but hypnotic pattern doesn't carry 3 other options that might situationally (party composition or character build) prove even more useful - variety is something which is paid for, and rightly so.

5) Most debuff spells require concentration and are limited in their duration so that a single combat is about all the time they can be sustained... bestow curse, however, has a nifty feature of being able to be cast at higher spell level (5th or higher) for much longer duration, and without requiring concentration.

Overall, it seems you aren't taking the over-arching changes to magic into account - permanent effects have been greatly reduced in their frequency, durations and ranges have been mostly cut down, buffs and debuffs have been largely made into short-term concentration spells to limit the prior-edition tactics of stacking a ton of buffs and speed-running a dungeon, or layering debuffs on tough enemies to turn them into pinatas.

And all of the "bad touch" spells have been made easier to recover from because they more often than not, in prior editions, crippled PC so badly and for so long that it became normal in many cases to simply abandon the affected character are make a new one rather than attempt to suffer on through the overly punitive game rules.

Eric888

Aug 11, 2014 22:44:01

In previous editions, and pathfinder, Bestow Curse lasted until removed with remove curse, not one minute.

But how would changing the duration to "until removed with a remove curse" change its use in battle? Battles rarely take longer than a minute anyway. Admidetly removing concentration would be powerful, but they could easily fix that by saying you have to maintain concentration for the first minute and then it becomes permanent. It just unfortunate that the spell does not actually put a curse on someone unless cast as a 9th level spell.

biopsiNC

Aug 12, 2014 0:12:44

I vote for Grasping Vine as worst spell in the PHB. Compare to another 4th level conjuration, Evard's Black Tentacles, which creates difficult terrain in a large area, and does damage and restrains on a failed save. The only situation I can see where Grasping Vine would be helpful is if there is a deep chasm nearby - put the vines opposite the chasm from a creature and hope it fails the Dex save. The only thing it has going for it is that it is a bonus action.

Psikerlord

Aug 12, 2014 2:31:21

I agree bestow curse sounds terribad. If it says touch range, doesnt that mean a touch attack is required? Are there standard touch attacks rules in 5e, or do you have to look at each spell description?

(Reply to #6)

AaronOfBarbaria

Psikerlord wrote:

Grazel

Aug 12, 2014 3:27:49

biopsiNC wrote:

Acrilos

Aug 12, 2014 4:26:23

Psikerlord wrote:

#10

dmgorgon

Aug 12, 2014 7:32:45

In 2e, Bestow Curse is the reversie of the spell Remove Curse

the bestow curse spell lasts for one turn for every experience level of the priest using the spell. The curse can have one of the following effects (roll percentile dice): 50% of the time it reduces one ability of the victim to 3 (the DM randomly determines which ability); 25% of the time it lowers the victim's attack and saving throw rolls by -4; 25% of the time it makes the victim 50% likely to drop whatever he is holding (or do nothing, in the case of creatures not using tools)--roll each round.

It is possible for a priest to devise his own curse, and it should be similar in power to those given here. Consult your DM. The subject of abestow curse spell must be touched. If the victim is touched, a saving throw is still applicable; if it is successful, the effect is negated. The bestowed curse cannot be dispelled.