Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Zardnaar Feb 03, 2015 23:19:11	Just an FYI. The artificer was originally in D&D as a wiozard subclass in AD&D. The class appeared in Spells and Magic.  The Eberron artificer was late to  the party. I personally think it is good that the class is a wizard subclass in 5E.
#2 trebor_rjf Feb 04, 2015 8:20:24	fact: bears EAT beets.   edit: this became a real thread.   I actually really like the subclass approach. i just can't see the artificer as a class when the assassin isn't. the concept of an assassin is way broader than the concept of the artificer. i think with a few new spells and a little bit of tweaking, most Eberron fans would be able to play this without turning to dust or something. they still get to have all the utilty of a wizard but with some very distinctive subclass mechanics that i think do a lot to fulflill my idea of an artificer.
#3 FFSAA Feb 04, 2015 6:10:13	Zardnaar wrote:
#4 SleepsInTraffic Feb 04, 2015 6:31:27	I think it could work as a subclass but I think I like it as a subclass of rogue kinda like arcane trickster but with scroll/potion creation alongside spellcasting at third and the armor and weapon( and wand ) infusions at 9th level with magic item creation and use magic device (as the already existing rogue feature) at 13th. If done in this manner I think it should be that potions per day and scrolls per day come from a progressive pool possibly the same pool something that goes in the table alongside your spellcasting progression. Though I think there shouldn't be the normal two school restriction on what the artificer can accomplish with their casting. Also all of your casting requires a focus of some kind even cantrips (that way there is the flavor of building items to do these things).
#5 Cyber-Dave Feb 04, 2015 7:29:23	Zardnaar wrote:
#6 IxidorRS Feb 04, 2015 7:42:21	I fear this is going to be an ongoing design philosphy except for things that might be seen as extremely unique (like psionic).   This and the Battlemaster (which really tries to cram two 4e classes down into a subclass, it's interesting but it isn't those things) show a design element I definitely don't like.   Of course, they want to cut down on class bloat, right?   Well, we're just going to end up with sub-class bloat instead.
(Reply to #4) Timborama	SleepsInTraffic wrote:
(Reply to #7) SleepsInTraffic	Timborama wrote:
#9 FFSAA Feb 04, 2015 11:30:36	SleepsInTraffic wrote:
#10 Timborama Feb 04, 2015 12:19:53	The easiest way to have avoided all of that, FFSAA, was having Subclasses start at level 1, like with Clerics (seriously, why are they the only ones who get this?!). That woulda thrown balancing for a loop, but was still doable (especially if "you get nothing from your Archetype until Level 3" was a blurb in some classes). Because, as mentioned, some might fit almost perfectly. But having to retroactively say that "You no longer have Sneak Attack, and instead have Infusions. Seriously, don't ask where Sneak Attack went, it's just gone, okay?" seems silly to me. Sorta same deal with Bards who become proficient with things at later levels, so I hope you bought a chain shirt, shield, and Rapier so your Valor Bard can be effective if he levels up not close to a town!   These would both be fixed by starting Archetypes at Level 1, so some archetypes are better level 1-3 but become balanced with the rest of the class by level 4, perhaps. And it also nixes retroactively losing options. So instead of "losing" Martial Arts as some Psionic Archetype for a Monk, you never had it to begin with, thanks to your Archetype!   But doing that might make people confused, or just make people say "There aren't 12 classes and 30 subclasses, there are really 42 classes!" So they did what they did. And DMs can adjust accordingly
#11 IxidorRS Feb 04, 2015 13:52:56	Timborama wrote:
#12 cbwjm Feb 04, 2015 14:13:48	I quite like the 5e Artificer subclass and feel like it has much of the Eberron artificer flavour. For the rest of the flavour you can get it by multiclassing and/or with an appropriate background. I'd probably go with Guild Artisan/Rogue/Wizard when making an Eberron Artificer.
#13 seti Feb 04, 2015 14:56:17	+1 to the idea of everyone gets 'sub-class' stuff at level one.   It irritated me when the Dev's just copped out of that arguement, and told us all to "just start at level 3, then".   IMO, the artificer is different enough to warrent its own class and sub-classes. In 3x/4e they functioned kind of like a wizard/cleric/rogue with extra, and unique, crafting powers. I have the sneaking suspiscion that those who are totally ok with the cut down, wizard sub-class in that WotC PDF will either A) never want to play one, B) have no love for Eberron, or C) might not even want to DM one.    I never heard of one outside of Eberron sourcebooks, though. I like what some people have been posting on the forums the past day or so, and what Keith Baker* posted, much better than what the Devs threw together in that latest PDF.   Sure, use the word 'sub-class' (and 'sub-race') if it makes you happy. Another way of looking at it is that there are already 40-ish classes, and 15-ish races so far.        *http://keith-baker.com/extra-life-hacking-the-artificer/
(Reply to #6) JohnLynch	IxidorRS wrote:
#15 FallingIcicle Feb 04, 2015 18:20:31	This reminds me of back during the playtest when they wanted to make sorcerers and warlocks subclasses of the wizard, since that seems to be their  first design instinct when it comes to anything arcane. Now, they're repeating the exact same mistake with the artificer. I'm very glad that they listened to us and made the sorcerer and warlock their own classes, because they're awesome. Hopefully, they'll come to their senses and the artificer class will be awesome, like the sorcerer and warlock now are.
#16 shpelley Feb 04, 2015 21:29:32	Having never played around with an Artificer before, seems good to me. The other parts of an Artificer (the "tinkering", making new things, etc) seems more like a Background bit to me. Make a Background feature that involves reduced crafting time/resources when amongst fellow crafters or something. Then having a setting-wide change that basically says "Crafting takes X% less time/money and Magical Item Crafting Y% less time/money". Then spend your downtime to craft various things. Setup some simple rules for a magically-created "golem," then Imbue it with extra stats/abilities from the current subclass.   Once again, this is just as an "outsider's" perspective on it.
#17 Tempest_Stormwind Feb 04, 2015 21:51:36	Timborama wrote:
#18 SleepsInTraffic Feb 04, 2015 22:28:46	Actually that does seem a bit better you can spend your sneak attack dice for infusing weapons, armor, and wands (all your +1s and +2s), and still dedicate spells to potions. So for the infusions roll the d6 to see how strong your infusion is(1 or 2 = +1, 3 or 4 = +2, 5 or 6 = +3) and for an hour you have that +bonus on whatever you infuse be it armor, a weapon, or a wand. Also once it stops being the infusion it reverts to being a sneak attack die, however each for can only be used once per short or long rest. (that's the level 9 feature). The way their spellcasting works is kind of like sorcerer, you have spells known and slots and you can cast any spell known with any slots. However you can also pickup extra spells like a wizard in a book and you can sacrifice slots to carry those spells as scrolls. So I could spend a 4th level slot and make a scroll of a forth level spell I have found (I can use this to create and use spells outside of the wizard list). Also the spell slots can be spent on prtion creation as the current portion creation ability for artificer stands. That gives spell casting, potion creation, scroll creatdie, at level 3. At level 9 you get the infusion ability that works off of sneak attack die. 13th we get to item creation and user magic device so you can deceive divides and user magic items you normally could not. Though sneak attack is the only feature I'd like to drown or of the class because of all the features it's the only one that really doesn't fit all artificers. Uncanny dodge and evasion kinda sounds like features a guy that experiments with magic would have. He seems like a guy used to surprises and explosions so having this abilities helps. (Should be noted this makes more sense for my games because I have them pay gold and spend time to learn the stuff they need to learn, so yeah the artificer sits they blowing stuff up and tinkering with magic when he levels and actually gets his class features. Super host role this starts at level 3)