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| #1darkrose5000Jul 21, 2015 17:07:03 | Something I find odd in 5e is the fact that a plate armor (1,500gp) suit is worth 3-15 magic swords. I would price a magic sword at the high end of uncommon item range (101gp to 500gp), and that would be 500gp, so a plate armor suit is perhaps worth 3 magic swords.
I think this is odd. I would likely make +1 magic swords worth more. I would also likely make magical armor cost much more, as weapon technology tends to outpace armor technology (I would figure even with magic technology this would be true).
Perhaps old runes are glutted with +1 swords, and not nearly as many magic pate armor suits.
Perhaps the magic needed to enchant metal is proportionate to its weight.
Let us assume the 2-pound short sword was the archetypical magical weapon. It is smaller, can be carried into more places, be good for stabbing inside closed places, and would use less enchanted steel than a long-sword. One pound of enchanted steel would cost 250gp.
This could make lower damaging magical weapons more common, as more people would be able to afford them. This would make armor extremely expensive (and reinforce the game mechanic that an AC bonus is rather powerful). It could also help the dwarven myth that they make lots of cool armor and weapons, because they would use less metal for a suit than a human (being short and all), could make more suits, and field more magic weapons.
+1 Dagger +250gp |
| #2Tempest_StormwindJul 21, 2015 17:18:56 |
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| #3Greenstone.WalkerJul 21, 2015 18:47:41 | In addition to the great answer above, it is possible that your +1 sword is not, in fact, magical— simply really well-made (a masterwork item, for example).
In this case, a smith could make 10 masterwork daggers for the time and materials of 1 suit of non-masterwork armour, so the cost makes sense.
Also, the daggers can be used by anyone, where the armour needs to be specifically fitted to a client. That 1500 gold for the plate is not off-the-rack, after all. You are also paying for the smith to adjust straps and move pieces to fit the armour to you.
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| (Reply to #2)darkrose5000 | All item prices are guidelines, magic item prices are more so.
I do not like economies where characters cannot act like people. People buy and sell things.
The economy should fit the game system. I find it to be extremely odd that magic swords are suggested to have a value of 101gp to 500gp, while plate armor is 1,500gp. To say something that is worth approximately 101gp to 500gp is priceless is a paradox.
Imbue Magic to Items [Feat] -Add the 1st level spell Transmute Metal Magic Items Into Magical Steel Ingots (a long casting time non-combat spell).
If you are not a caster, then you may cast one spell of each level, from the above list as a special type of ritual. One above ritual of each spell level can be cast once per day. One must be 3rd level to cast a 2nd level spell, and one must be 5th level to cast a 3rd level spell.
Casting Prepare Steel is worth 100gp, and casting Imbue Steel With Magic is worth 150gp. This is per 1-pound ingot. One or more ingots are used to create a +1 item. |
| #5Storyteller-ZeroJul 21, 2015 23:35:45 | Plate armor is far more complex to construct than a sword, and engraving magic runes for low level enchantment will not take nearly as much time and expertise.
The cost can be equated to the amount of work and resources that it takes to create said item.
If a magic sword perhaps had the ability to emit fireballs from its tip, then sure it should definitely be more expensive than plate armor, but slightly better edged and better balanced does not exactly scream "more valuable than plate armor". |
| #6ThunaerJul 22, 2015 3:36:13 | Imo never allow players to buy anything more then healing potions without having to owe someone a favor or doing something in return unless its a because you have to insert a new character in to a high powered party. The system is usually in the players favor as it is and although it is not an us vrs the DM game it can turn into that when the players walkthru everything the DM throws at them because of the amount of magic items at their disposal.
Anyways, unless the weapons are rare and unique they really should cost more then magical armor especially any type of medium or heavy armor as in theory the abiltiy to gather the materials, the ability to make the item and the ability to wear the item properly can be just as rare if not more so then any +1 weapon.. |
| #7Ralif_RedhammerJul 22, 2015 7:38:31 | Same here. Getting a magic item should never be a matter of just throwing money around. That just seems so… mundane. Heck, even outright creation should require something epic to make the magic item, like the reflection of a medusa, the fruit growing in a volcano, or the heart of an Earth Elemental.
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| #8ElfcrusherJul 22, 2015 8:08:53 | Agreed. I loathe the idea of buying magic items from magic stores. The very concept kind of sucks all the joy out of the game for me. Gifts, loot, and crafting should be the only three options, and all of them should be rare/difficult.
The logic about "if there are magic items in the world, then there is an economy for them" is 100% true, so I think the onus is on the game designer to figure out a way for that to be unlikely or impossible.
Are there real world (current day or historial) precedents for "precious items for which there is essentially no market"? Even the rarest works of art and antiquities are sold at auction.
But maybe our model for the "fine art market" should draw from previous centuries, not the present day. During the Renaissance did they have art auctions? Or did wealthy people commission/collect/gift/trade such things without trying to attach prices to them? Might make an interesting and relevant research project. The difference between the world we know and a fantasy world in which magic items are not sold might simply be cultural: it wouldn't occur to somebody (or, to most people...there might be exceptions) to "sell" an item of magic. |
| #9Xeviat-DMJul 22, 2015 8:16:58 | Plate Armor is the equivalent of +2 Chainmail. That's why it's so expensive. |
| #10Xeviat-DMJul 22, 2015 8:17:01 | Plate Armor is the equivalent of +2 Chainmail. That's why it's so expensive. |
| #11Brock_LandersJul 22, 2015 10:35:33 | I disagree with the pricing guidelines in the DMG, I would price magic items way higher. |
| #12darkrose5000Jul 22, 2015 10:40:28 | Reading about how hard to come by magical were in 5e, my initial assumption was that that magical swords would likely be ~10,000gp. They confer the attack portion of a proficiency bonus of a 5th (?) level character. I am rather amused that, at the default setting, one could buy 1-15 +1 swords or a suit of plate armor. If one could, then someone would be able to buy at least three +1 swords, or a suit of plate armor. This seems to imply that, if an mage enchanting words makes the same wage as a master armor smith, that she could produce three swords in the same time it takes to produce one suit of plate armor. |
| #13ElfcrusherJul 22, 2015 10:59:15 | Maybe the pricing guide (I don't have the DMG in front of me) is meant to be the prices players should expect to get if they sell magical items that they've found, not the price to buy them? That still makes little sense economically, but at least it would explain what the designers were thinking. That is, to discourage the vendoring of loot, and to avoid breaking the game economy if they do. Because, in a realistic economy, a single +1 sword might be worth plate armor for the whole party if they sold it. |
| #14FFSAAJul 22, 2015 11:50:23 |
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| #15FFSAAJul 22, 2015 11:54:18 |
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| (Reply to #8)Ath-kethin |
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| #17PsikerlordJul 22, 2015 14:32:21 | I tihnk it's best to ignore the pricing guidelines and go with what seems appropriate for your world. The market doesnt have to be fair, either. If PCs want to sell a +1 sword, most nobles who could afford one arent interested in paying more than 500gp for it - they dont expect to get in any real fights, they already have a bunch of cool heirloom swords, and besides they have their castle to upkeep etc, who has 500gp sitting around for another sword?
On the other hand, when the PCs locate a flaming scimitar, the guy selling it understands this is the kind of sword real adventurers want, and his price is 3000gp, plus a favour, thanks very much. |
| #18Greenstone.WalkerJul 22, 2015 19:42:34 |
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| #19ElfcrusherJul 22, 2015 20:52:07 |
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| (Reply to #19)darkrose5000 | (1) Is magic cool, powerful, and useful?
Frankly people not wanting to buy cool, powerful, and useful magic treasure ruins the wounder of magic. |
| #21Brock_LandersJul 23, 2015 10:22:05 |
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| #22shintashiJul 23, 2015 10:20:22 | it isn't important how many magic items are in the game. it is somewhat important how many magic items are in commerce. but the most important thing, is the availability of producing magic items.
The easier it is for a civilization to produce magical items, the cheaper they are going to be, relative to base costs. A resold magic item in a world where they forgot how to make them, is going to be more expensive than what you paid. Meanwhile, a magic item that has a well known recipe, and is being manufactured by 3 smith guilds within 5 miles and sold at 4 vendors down the road, is going to sell for 1/2 what you paid, and that's with a fair success on a haggling check.
Magical specialness is relative, but money is more powerful than the sharpest vorpal sword. Just ask the rich kings who hire all the level 20 parties that take out dragons and crazy liches.
When i was touring the Buck Knife factory a few weeks ago, they had all sorts of pretty knives, but then they had knives made of a more expensive steel. Way more expensive. Their giant machines couldn't stamp cut it, it was too badass. They had to use high powered laser beams to cut it. They took me into their cryogenic room too. We got my wife one of those nifty cryogenic laser beam steel knives for her birthday, and she loves it. It totally outperformed all her other knives she uses at work. Like, Magic.
Thing is, you could get a really big knife for the same price as one of those dinky "magic" knives. The question is whether the enchantment is the primary cost, or if the materials for making it enchantworthy is the primary cost.
See, a two handed sword has way more material than the knife that comes with your Explorer mess kit. If the two were made of adamantium or ruby infused mythril, well, it would take alot more crushed rubies and mythril for the giant sword.
On the other hand, if the +1 is coming from sticking the object in a magic circle and chanting for 30 days, it really doesn't matter what object you put in the circle, as long as it fits. The magic circle thing is like Branding. You guys probably know about clothing, like how a $20 pair of pants made in the same factory can have something like "Disquared2" labels sewn in and poof, like magic, they now cost $600.
So the real important question before determining magic item price, is whether it is about material costs by volume, or the magic is a product of branding or marking an otherwise ordinary object. |
| (Reply to #21)darkrose5000 | It seems to be a rather quite popular ideal not to have magic in the economy. I do not think it is human nature to limit a portion of society (wizards and the like creating magic items, and other people from wanting magic treasure) via excluding them from economics.
Saying magic is not valuable enough to be purchased, ruins magic.
Saying treasure is not valuable enough to be purchased, ruins treasure.
What is better than treasure? Obviously not magic treasure . . . who would want that?
Imagine finding a glowing magical sword that pierces the armor of many monsters that roam the wild. Then imagine an economy where such a thing is not desired. Kings, and the like, do not want these magical monster slaying swords in the hands of their knights. People with more wealth than they know what to do with do not want to buy magical treasure. Wizards do not toil away at protecting civilization, and are not compensated for doing so.
It makes the world less real, as people are not acting like people. |
| (Reply to #23)shintashi |
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| #25ElfcrusherJul 23, 2015 12:23:11 |
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| (Reply to #25)darkrose5000 | Economics are basically non-existent in D&D, and they are not at all important to most people. It annoyed me to no end that in 4e no PC could ever make more or less money than any other PC. That is not a fantasy economy. It is points to be used, disguised as money.
In 5e the extrapolated wealth per level (not including magic items) does not seem to mesh well with the cost of living. It looks off. A 9th level PC cannot live off of the 8th to 9th level gold like a noble for more than one year, and that seems odd to me.
I like fantasy economics. I just think magic treasure should be valued. It perplexes me to no end that I seem to be in the minority. It defies the definitions of magic, treasure, and value.
It offends many people that magic would be part of economics. I do not think it would be possible to have magic and economics be separated.
I am all for magic, just not all for magic treasure being worthless in an economy. The notion that magical treasure would not be valuable is absurd, and is an insult to the words magic, treasure, value, and to intelligence in general.
A magic shop would likely be the kings armory. If you had pull with the king, who is cornering the market on buying magical swords (and whatnot), then perhaps you could convince him to sell you one.
Now if you found a magic sword, then you could very likely sell it to the king, or most anyone with money and a lick of sense really (who would sell it to the king, perhaps have a meeting with the king, or have ones name gain favor with the king . . . or gaining the good graces of the king via gifting the magical sword to him). That way the king's knights can kill the monsters, and he can stay in power. |
| #27OB1Jul 23, 2015 17:49:59 | The thing is, I'm not sure there would be very high demand for a +1 sword.
The value of Plate Armor vs a +1 sword to a 1st to 3rd level fighter would be at least 3 to 1 and it's those level of fighters who would make up the armies of kings. If I'm in that army, I know I would much rather have the Plate than the sword, because it means I will be more likely to live through the battle, and that's what non adventures are interested in. Assuming the King has the resources to do so, outfiting 1/3rd of his 1st level fighters with plate armor will likely do far more to ensure victory than outfiting all of them with a +1 sword, since it's hard to swing a sword when you are dead. Additionally, should that figher be slain in battle, you won't have to worry about your enemy gaining an immediate benefit from it by picking it up off the ground and using it against you.
It's a very small subset of people to whom a +1 weapon would be valuable to, people who actively look to get into fights with things that can kill them (which is the only way to gain levels). I always assume that maybe 1 in 1,000 people would ever attain level 1 in any class and less than 1 in 100,000 people ever attain a level higher than 3rd. The rest either retire the moment the queen no longer forces them to fight or are killed in battle. So there are both very few people in the world who can make magic items, and very few people who would want them.
Bottom line, to a murder-hobo, 500 gold for a +1 sword vs 1,500 for plate seems like a steal but the world economy isn't based on those outliers, it's based on the needs of the majority of the population.
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| #28transcendantviewerJul 23, 2015 21:31:56 | A lot of people seem to be for one side of this or another, or at least leaning closer to one than the other. I started playing D&D in 3.5 and I know the "Ye Olde Majick Shoppe" quite well. I also enjoy that magic items feel like a big deal in 5e. Personally, I feel that magic items deserve a higher value than what the DMG gives them, but I fully understand why those values are there. If you could go out, slay a terrable beast, and find a sword that you could sell for a kingdom, there'd be so many adventurers flooding ruins that the PCs wouldn't be important. Which, actually, could make for an entertaining campaign. (But we are great fighters and explorers! Honest!) I for one think that magic items deserve priceless values because they possess powers that could topple entire governments in an evening. Something like that should either be lost to time or kept in museums, protected by the most powerful of guards to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. If economics is going to work for 5e, the way it should work (In my opinion, anyway) seems to be that magic items are of a value above and beyond what the market can support. Only the wealthiest of nobles should be able to afford and own magical weaponry, and even then, they're merely showpieces and symbols of stature to be observed and cherished. Adventurers use these items to great effect, stopping evil cults, carving their way through hoards of undead that threaten cities, even slaying gods that risk demolishing the entirety of the world if left unopposed. An item that can slay a god, or be used to aid in its defeat, is of a value well beyond mere gold or favor, it's priceless and no economy can rightly place a value upon it. True, items have requirements to create, even those imbued with the most powerful of magics, but that's all it is. You could forge a steel sword that's pitted, flimsy, and dull, but the moment that sorry excuse for a blade slays a dragon, it becomes a weapon of legend. Now imagine if that sword were of truly exceptional, almost unquantifiable value, before it'd slain that dragon. That's something special indeed. |
| #29ElfcrusherJul 24, 2015 7:23:53 | I wouldn't mind playing in a campaign world where magic items were viewed with suspicion, and selling one would be about as hard as selling stolen nuclear fuel, or state secrets. Most people would bolt their doors and have nothing to do with you, and you'd need some seriously shady connections to find and broker a transaction. And like as not it would be with a buyer who was just planning to kill you and take it. |
| #30Brock_LandersJul 24, 2015 9:55:10 |
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| #31Xeviat-DMJul 31, 2015 12:45:33 | I like the concept of a magic shop that sells material components; when more than half the classes cast spells, you know someone would be making a buck off them. But if you want magic items out of the economy, then I don't think they could be made in modern times. The ability to craft them could be lost to time.
But I'm a rules person. The difference between a sword and a +1 sword is the same as the difference between chainmail and plate mail (minus the damage that is, but +1 damage isn't as much as +1 to hit). Thus, for the game, I think that cost should be similar. |
| #32OB1Jul 31, 2015 14:21:44 |
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| (Reply to #32)Yunru |
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| (Reply to #17)Yunru |
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| #35OB1Jul 31, 2015 15:57:10 |
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| (Reply to #35)Yunru |
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| #37LuisCarlos17fJul 31, 2015 16:43:41 | The question is... what is better, to buy a magic wand, or to hire warmage mercenaries? That is very important if there is a module about mass battle, skirmishes, and stronghold managements. Do I buy the magic armour, or do I build a new tower and two new walls for the castle? |
| #38FFSAAJul 31, 2015 16:57:08 |
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| #39MecheonJul 31, 2015 17:29:07 | Flying battle castles, though?
That's a whole other story. |
| (Reply to #29)arnwolf666 |
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| #41SaidorAug 01, 2015 11:55:48 |
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| #42OrethalionAug 01, 2015 12:49:25 |
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| #43OGRE1984Aug 01, 2015 12:57:54 | i favor a low magic item economy. minor items of relatively low power and limited use, cantrip ring 1/day, potions scrolls, etc. better items available but require more effort to acquire, as it is high end stuff. these items are for sale on a limited basis, you must know where to go, temples, noble houses, & guilds. so political affiliation, social standing, etc. will be a factor. half orc barbarian cannot buy from Silvershield noble house for example. or a cleric of Tempus trying to buy items from a temple of Eldath. essentially roleplaying factors need to apply to make a believable game world that seems 'real'. also this reinforces character choices and makes backgrounds far more important. |
| #44FFSAAAug 01, 2015 18:27:27 |
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| #45MechaPilotAug 01, 2015 20:03:16 |
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