Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Titanium_Dragon Jul 04, 2014 16:58:59	Okay, so, this bothers me.   As someone who actually tries to introduce people to roleplaying games, I have had to make up systems and use very obscure systems to introduce people to the game. Why?   Well, because the big players... well, really big player (Dungeons & Dragons) doesn't have anything to really introduce people with.   So when I saw "D&D Basic", I was excited. Did they finally do it? Did they finally make something that I could use to introduce new players to the game with?   No.   Okay, so, let's talk for a little bit here. I know that we're all nerds, and we all love to read.   So you've all read the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, right? If you count up all the words in there, it is a novel. It is a real book, right?   It is 46,000 words long. That's a fair bit.   Okay, now take something that many of you probably read back in school, The Giver. The Giver is a fairly short novel, but it is still a novel, and clocks in at 42,000 words.   Another classic book is Animal Farm. Pretty well known, pretty widely read allegory about communism. 30,000 words.   So how long is D&D "Basic"?   It seems to be about 110,000 words long.   So, about as long as The Highhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, The Giver, and Animal Farm... combined.    This is not a short document, folks. And yet, it is being presented as an introduction to D&D. An introduction for whom, exactly? Surely, those of us who have been playing it are familiar with it, while those who aren't... is 110,000 words really the right way to introduce them to the game?   I feel like someone has lost sight of their goal, here. Who exactly is this for? What is the point? Is this just meant to be a teaser? An incomplete version of the "real rules"?   This certainly isn't something I'd use to introduce someone to roleplaying.   But if WotC isn't doing it, who is?   Well, the answer apparently is "I guess I get to do it," but I just wanted to rant about it for a bit.   Seriously, 110,000 words? 110 pages of pretty dense text? In what world is this "basic"?
#2 Krayt1 Jul 04, 2014 17:08:55	I was under the impression that the Starter Set was what you'd be expected to use to introduce people to the game. That's got something like 32 pages of rules, and some pre-made characters. Basic is the "Next" step (hehe) after that, to help people who've got the general idea start building their own characters, or play in more advanced games. Once you know the drill from the starter set, you can pretty well just skip everything in Basic but the spells list and class descriptions.
(Reply to #2) Titanium_Dragon	Krayt1 wrote:
#4 pukunui Jul 04, 2014 17:16:32	Titanium_Dragon wrote:
#5 Prom Jul 04, 2014 17:19:39	Krayt1 wrote:
(Reply to #3) Dracones	Yeah, the wording for "Basic" is a bit misleading. The starter set is what new people should be picking up. All pre-made ready to go characters, a good simple adventure and some low page count books inside that take the game from 1-5.   Basic is essentially "free" DnD that allows people to take the starter set and continue on up to level 20 without paying a cent or buying anything else. In fact Basic players can play at Advanced tables and just use the rules from their Basic PDF. It let's people play DnD without buying a $50 book. Also the Basic PDF will grow in size as the PHB, MM and DMG get released so you'll be seeing the page count on it go up.   I really hope the starter set ends up as a downloadable PDF at some point so people can more easily pick it up. The Basic PDF really is a bit heavy as a first read and can easily end up people's first experienced since it's free and online.
(Reply to #5) Titanium_Dragon	Prom wrote:
#8 pukunui Jul 04, 2014 17:32:33	The idea is to end up with several tiers of D&D:   Starter Set Basic Standard Advanced     The Starter Set is the introductory product.   Basic D&D, as a free product, may essentially take the place of an OGL. Its content is taken straight out of the core rulebooks. The only real difference between it and the standard game is that Basic won't have everything that the books have in them.   The Standard game will be the default rules in the core rulebooks, while the Advanced game will be all the optional modules and rules variants in the DMG.
(Reply to #7) Dracones	Well, I imagine the thought process is: Wizards uses its huge storefront distribution system to get the starter set in game shops and comic book stores(anyplace that sells Magic). New person who's never played a rpg sees the box set, has heard about DnD and it's only $20(cheap board game price) so he picks it up. He goes home, gets some friends, they play it and really enjoy it. They can go online, download Basic and continue on as DnD players that'll hopefully buy product down the road.   It's a legit strategy especially since there may be better ways to handle people who go to the website to learn about DnD instead of buying a box in a store. If they're on your website you might point them to how to play videos or if they're already searching about DnD they may likely just find stuff on Youtube or other websites to begin with anyway that'll teach them. 5e is just starting up, Wizards will streamline things as they go along.
#10 rookrock Jul 04, 2014 17:51:40	I think that the Basic rules represent a table top version of F2P games that seem to be everywhere these days. You get the game for free, but to truly experience it, you have to pay for upgrades and "extra" (though vital in truth) content. I think this is where the similarities end though. Basic is only "basic" in so far as it will be compared to the "standard" and "advanced" game.   Basic, I think (and hope) will actually be a full game with full rules in its own right (as the devs and PR have been saying all along). Yes it has advertisements for the benefits of the "advanced" game, but you could play level 1 to 20 and never need to buy a single book.   In short, "basic" does not mean introductory. The term itself is only relative and does not simplicity or complexity of the freely provided ruleset.
#11 TheZigZagist Jul 04, 2014 18:44:31	I really do hope the complete document comes near to the Rules Cyclopedia comparison Mr. Mearls made of it. That would make it the equivalent of a BECM game. I can see the OP's perception of a misnomer here in that "Basic" has usually stood for introductory throughout D&D's history, but I sure don't want it to mean that this time around. A free modernized Rules Cyclopedia? Yes please!
(Reply to #7) Shiroiken	Titanium_Dragon wrote:
#13 Nicodaudel Jul 04, 2014 18:59:47	I'm confident the Basic Rules will eventually be a complete standalone game - though it certainly won't be a version of D&D that everyone finds appealing. Mearls has described it as the Rules Cyclopedia sans Known World material several times over the last month or so, and I see no reason to disbelieve him until after v1.0 is released in December and we see what's actually there.   As for the "Basic" moniker, by the time the Rules Cyclopedia released in 1991, Basic had been dropped from that product line's name, but it was, for all intents and purposes, Basic D&D from 1977 (Holmes blue book) until Mystara was folded into AD&D 2e in 1994. WotC is returning to that description, for good or ill, precisely because the PDF strips out everything beyond what R&D considers the absolute core of the game.
#14 TheZigZagist Jul 04, 2014 19:01:32	Also, I have noticed that some folks have referred to Basic as a teaser, or that some of the oversights (presumably) such as Potent Cantrip aren't broken because they'll work fine in Core. I mean, I realize it's a free download and all, but as someone who planned on using the basic rules exclusively, I'm certainly hoping that they intend to do right by their intial assertions with Basic. *Fingers Crossed*
#15 Emerikol. Jul 05, 2014 4:16:40	Of those 100 pages, how many are spells or equipment or backgrounds?  Those things are not rules but components built on the rules.     I really do think the game is easy.  Kids aren't stupid.  If they are smart enough to bother caring about pen and paper D&D, they won't have trouble with the starter set and basic.
#16 edwin_su Jul 05, 2014 4:52:05	Titanium_Dragon wrote:
#17 The_Jester Jul 05, 2014 7:53:07	The Basic set has two audiences.    First, there are the new players. Their introduction to the game is the Starter Set, and their journey ends when they pick up the three Core Rulebooks. The middle step is Basic. Basic is a big document, but it's smaller than a three 320 page books.    Second, there are D&D players who want a simple game. A game akin to the old Red Box or the old Basic game. Not everyone wants a really complicated game with lots and lots of options and features and choices.   The need for this gets back to Basic from the old 2e days. TSR designed and expected Basic D&D to cater to new players. But when TSR surveyed the audience they found it was mostly experienced players who used Basic, ones who wanted a more rules lite experience. New players wanted to play "the real game" and skipped right to Advanced.
#18 trebor_rjf Jul 05, 2014 9:56:58	i think they've said they intend for Basic to eventually have the same scope as the Rules Cyclopedia from 1st ed (a 300ish page book)
#19 kill_the_wiz_first Jul 05, 2014 9:59:26	trebor_rjf wrote:
#20 SteeleButterfly Jul 07, 2014 6:28:52	I didn't expect the Basic to have so many references to the PHB and the DMG. For a standalone game, it doesn't really stand alone, does it? As people said, it's more a teaser for the real game. I'm not saying it's not playable, but sheesh, cut down on the inferences (references) that the PHB/MM/DMG are the "real" game.
(Reply to #20) rookrock	SteeleButterfly wrote:
(Reply to #20) AaronOfBarbaria	SteeleButterfly wrote:
#23 MrHotter Jul 07, 2014 7:23:45	Game rules are not the same thing as a novel, so word count is meaningless. The Basic rules are also going to get longer as they expand them as they add information from the PHB/MM/DMG.   If I want to introduce D&D to someone I don't say, 'read every word in this PDF by Tuesday so we can play'.  Even the DM does not need to read every part of the PDF. They can read the Introduction and then Chapters 7-9 and they are ready to run a published adventure.    I usually don't ask players to read anything and just make their character or help them make the character and start playing. If they want to go over the rules later they can, but casual players figure the DM can resolve rules issues as they come up.   Someone who is a first time DM could download just the Basic rules and try to start his own campaign, but that's not the best way to do it. With no sample adventure it would be hard to DM without getting the Starter Set or buying a published adventure.
#24 SteeleButterfly Jul 07, 2014 7:38:44	Disagree with me if you wish -- it's my opinion. I just got annoyed every time I ran across yet another (see chapter X of the PHB), which at least once occurred more than once in a single paragraph. (There's more coming. I get that, WotC. Quit shoving it in my face.) It made me feel that what was presented was more a trailer for the "real" game rather than being the basic version of a game that will have an advanced version.
(Reply to #20) HollowMan42	SteeleButterfly wrote:
#26 Rastapopoulos Jul 07, 2014 8:17:43	SteeleButterfly wrote:
#27 HollowMan42 Jul 07, 2014 8:33:34	Rastapopoulos wrote:
(Reply to #26) rookrock	Rastapopoulos wrote:
#29 Rastapopoulos Jul 07, 2014 9:44:42	rookrock wrote:
#30 Rastapopoulos Jul 07, 2014 9:52:04	Let me give an example...   Let's take the 2e fighter. What does the basic class have? Basically he gets lots of Weapon Proficiencies slots, aside from good Hit Dice, armor choise and these basic stuff.   In it's most basic form, you use those WP slots to learn new weapons and/or specialize in them. Nothing more.   But... with the extra rules in 2e splat books you could use those WP slots to do a lot more. You had fighting styles in the Complete Fighter, special use for exotic weapons in the Complete Gladiator, even Martial Arts in the Complete Ninja... all that and many more options that you could add to the game (or not!) to be purchased with those basic WP slots.   That's a good example of a basic class that is module-friendly,   On the same line, we could have had a basic fighter like that in 5e and then add as many options to be taken with the basic "slots" as each table wanted to play with. Something like using 1 WP slot, for example, to take the Second Wind ability, if your table decided this ability fits in your style of play and should be in the game.
#31 Lawolf Jul 07, 2014 11:49:25	D&D never has been and never will be a simple rules light game.
(Reply to #29) Shiroiken	Rastapopoulos wrote:
(Reply to #23) Titanium_Dragon	MrHotter wrote:
#34 Polaris Jul 07, 2014 16:01:10	Titanium_Dragon wrote: