Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Xeviat-DM Aug 11, 2014 17:58:43	So, the starter set has been out for a while. Some groups have experienced TPKs, other groups have experienced cake walks. I think this is due to the standard encounter taking 2 rounds on average; with little time to average things out, there's a lot of swing. Rocket tag has a large part to do in it, but even a GWFer will oneshot most things they face in the beginning.   Now, I fully recognize that this is a plus for some people. If it's a plus for you, great, I hope you enjoy your games. If I were running a high lethality game, where I wanted to encourage stealth and surprise, I may stick with the standard rules.   My first thought is to add Con score to HP, for players and for monsters. How does this change things? We don't currently have the monster building guidelines, just a number of example monsters. We do have the PC guidelines.   A fighter starts with 10+Con mod HP; my mod effectively doubles their HP. A Con 14 Fighter would previously start with 12 hp; now they start with 26 (117% improvement). If, a big if, they were to push for a 20 Con by level 20, the HP difference becomes more neglegable; 224 standard vs. 244 (9% improvement).   Fights will take longer, but with standard at-will damage hovering around 1d8+3 at first level, it amounts to 1 or 2 more hits.   My immediate worry is that it will hurt spellcasters and benefit non-casters. This might prove to be a benefit, but I haven't seen any examples of caster dominance at low levels yet (aside from how a caster can shut down a fight by using one of their spells; I'd rather see more spell slots and weaker spells, but that's for a different thread). So I'm crowd sourcing thoughts on other effects this will have.   ----------   A related issue, I'm considering using this as a way of describing damage as well for a gritty game. Your Con HP would actually be your negative HP; I might even have the damage actually go to Con once you hit 0. Going to 0 would impose a level of fatigue, but you can still fight until you hit your Con score in negatives, at which point you fall unconscious and start making death saves.
#2 Shiroiken Aug 11, 2014 18:54:35	IF you want to start with Con HP as a base, I would advise requiring a roll for 1st Level of HP instead of Max. Personally, I would rather have all creatures have 1/2 Con score to HP, not every creature have HD, and Con not add to HP/lv, but this is a fairly dramatic change.   Adding these extra HP will generally make each combat last 2-4 more rounds, as each combatant can take about 1-2 extra hits. This will make non-resource abilities (Champion sub-class, Sneak Attack, Cantrip Attacks) much stronger, so certain classes and sub-classes will be affected. Also, you need to add bonus dice to non-damage spell effects which are based on HP (such as Color Spray and Sleep),unless you want to see them disappear from play.
#3 Chimerasame Aug 11, 2014 19:00:31	There won't be a significant change in power-balance between spellcasters and non-spellcasters. There might be a slight change -- if anything it'd benefit those with low hit-dice more. Con is already a valuable stat for anyone who wants to make concentration checks a lot -- it's often gonna be a caster's 2nd or 3rd highest stat.   The biggest issue this houserule is going to create, I think, is that combats are going to take a lot longer, at least when you're fighting more than one foe. The rule won't help out a solo monster very much, but a group of monsters are gonna be significantly boosted.   "with standard at-will damage hovering around 1d8+3 at first level, it amounts to 1 or 2 more hits"   Keep in mind, that's 1 or 2 more hits per enemy. Which means 2-4 more attempted-hits per enemy. If you're fighting say, for example, seven kobolds, that's about 20 more swings. Combats may turn into a slug-fest.   I don't think adding extra HP as a houserule is a terrible idea, but the whole con score on top of the starting value seems like a bit much. Also, if the intent is to reduce TPKs, I'm not entirely sure if it's strictly necessary to boost monsters too, for 'fairness'. If the purpose of the rule is to make it easier on the players, then ... could just straight-up make it easier on 'em, and only give it to the PCs themselves.   Maybe like, half a hit die's max value, extra.
#4 MechaPilot Aug 11, 2014 19:15:46	@OP:  I would use Con score instead of Con mod and then suspend the addition of Con mod to HPs until level 5.   Example:   Fluffy the fighter: 14 Con, which is a +2 modifier, gets 10 HPs from class at level one and 6 HPs per level thereafter.   Under the 5e RAW, Fluffy has 12 HPs at first level (10 + 2), and gets 8 HPs per level afterward for a five-level progression of 12, 20, 28, 36, and 44.   Under my rule, Fluffy has 24 HPs at first level (10 + 14), and gets 6 HPs per level thereafter until level five, at which time he gains 8 HPs per level.  This creates a five level progression of 24, 30, 36, 42, and 50.   Under the rule espoused in the OP, Fluffy has 26 HPs at first level (10 +14 + 2), and gains 8 HPs per level for a five level progression of 26, 34, 42, 50, and 58.       For monsters I would simply add 10 HPs to creatures under 5 HDs and 6 HPs to creatures with more than 5 HDs.
#5 Tony_Vargas Aug 11, 2014 22:03:10	If all you do is add to PC hps, the effect will just be fewer character deaths and TPKs.  The only combats that will take longer are the ones that would have been TPKs, all others will take the same time two kill the monsters, if not fewer rounds, because PCs stay up and fighting with fewer actions devoted to healing.   Apart from that the party might squeeze in the odd extra encounter/day.
#6 THEMNGMNT Aug 11, 2014 22:20:05	I think the effects should be minimal, especially if playing an adventure you created. For published adventures, it could make the first level a bit of a cakewalk. That's far from the end of the world.
#7 Veleria Aug 11, 2014 22:36:38	You may want to consider taking just calculating 3rd level hp and then don't give more until 4th level. 3rd level is really the 1st level of most classes which is why the xp curve really starts there so it should only have a minimal effect. Up to you however if you want a safer home game go for whatever.
#8 Noon Aug 11, 2014 22:49:10	As usual I'd ask how many deaths per session is an okay number.   Just raising HP by CON doesn't help anything if you'd still get more deaths than you're comfortable with.
#9 Xeviat-DM Aug 11, 2014 22:51:26	With the amount of damage that the Green Dragon does with its breath weapon compared to characters of the same level, I think the HP problem will exist through much of the game; it doesn't seem to end at 3rd level.   And my reason for wanting to add the same amount of HP to the monsters is to keep the difficulty level the same, or at least the chance of loss. I don't mind PC death; I mind PC death in the first round of combat.
#10 Noon Aug 11, 2014 23:33:18	Perhaps just go with only being able to be put down to 1 HP in the first round of combat.
#11 JabbaVonHutt Aug 12, 2014 9:03:43	My houserule for level 1 PC HP: Con + (rolled HD or Con mod. (whichever is higher))    This should avoid the rocket tag of level 1 and give PCs a slight HP boost as they level. After reading what is expected of the PCs in Chapter 1 of Hoard of the Dragon Queen, I believe this is the minimum to be fair to the PCs.
#12 Qmark Aug 13, 2014 7:50:08	Levels 1 and 2 are intended to be optional now, guys.
#13 Sturmunddrang Aug 13, 2014 9:04:32	Qmark wrote:
#14 Chimerasame Aug 13, 2014 10:37:42	All levels are optional! You can start at 19 if you want.   My recommendation for a group with people new to tabletop RPGs, or for a group running an adventure designed to start at level 1, would be to start at level 1, and pull punches. And -- I don't necessarily mean pull punches at the actual point of die rolling (although I do advocate this if things are heading for an unwanted player death, especially in a newbie group) -- you can also pull punches before the start of anything, and have all the actual combat rolls remain 'fair'.   If you're confident enough to houserule the system, I suspect you're also confident enough to make minor tweaks to monsters. For example, one of people's biggest complaints is that orcs do too much damage. But, maybe that particular orc you're throwing at 'em isn't strength 16 and wielding a greataxe. (1d12+3). Maybe he's strength 13 and wielding a big stick like a quarterstaff (1d8+1).   (Or, don't have 'em fight orcs; just use things with smaller damage totals.)   Also remember, 0hp isn't death. I see people reach 0 and throw up their hands and say "WELL THAT'S IT, I DIED" -- remind them that they're still *at least* three rounds from death, and with a little help from your friends, it's not too hard to stabilize. (Also: never have monsters attack an unconscious character, at least until/unless your players are all very experienced AND the monster would rationally do that because it knows enough tactics to know that healing could bring back the fallen guy.)
#15 Qmark Aug 13, 2014 10:37:51	Sturmunddrang wrote:
#16 autolycus Aug 13, 2014 11:54:29	TPKs largely seem to be a result of play style.   The last two editions (particularly 4th) have encouraged a very gung-ho approach to encounters. Characters barrel into an encounter with little to no information and start bashing heads. The previous editions were balanced to allow the following slugfest to occur with only moderate risk of death.   5e seems much more in the vein of older editions, where characters were very careful to avoid a "fair" fight whenever possible. Scouting, research, hired help, alchemist itmes, dirty tricks, simple parley and bargaining..anything and everything was meant to be brought to bear. Running away was an oft-used "tactic". Once you know what you are up against, you can always come back with a better counter strategy.   If you don't want to play the game with this level of caution and calculation, then extra hit points or higher levels may be the right approach.
#17 Tony_Vargas Aug 13, 2014 11:51:31	Sturmunddrang wrote:
#18 Tony_Vargas Aug 13, 2014 13:45:13	autolycus wrote:
#19 autolycus Aug 13, 2014 13:57:03	Tony_Vargas wrote:
#20 Brock_Landers Aug 13, 2014 14:26:32	Probably mentioned, but in the 1st packet characters started with Con score + 1 HD for hit points, it's a good way to go, or you could simply give characters an extra HD or 2 at 1st level, like 1st Ed (monk and ranger) and SWSE.
#21 Tony_Vargas Aug 13, 2014 14:42:29	autolycus wrote:
(Reply to #21) Shiroiken	Tony_Vargas wrote:
#23 Tony_Vargas Aug 14, 2014 22:21:37	Shiroiken wrote:
#24 JohnLynch Aug 14, 2014 23:58:07	Some people looking for Heroic Fantasy aren't interested in starting out as heroes but want to instead grow into the role. To assert that these people who want a heroic fantasy experience are being punished at low levels seems narrow minded. If that isn't the play experience your looking for, you can: 1) Start at a higher level 2) Use the optional rules to have higher HP at level 1.   If neither of these options appeals to you than you can always play a game that does cater to your specific needs.   I enjoy heroic fantasy and 5th edition supports that for my table. I'm sorry if it doesn't work for you.
#25 Haytam Aug 15, 2014 3:07:19	In my opinion,lv 1 characters are not heroes yet. Real world analogy: fresh out of boot camp,not delta operator. If you look at the stats,they are slightly better that Joe the carpenter,lv 1 commoner. So they use caution,play it wise,don't behave stupid ("fair" fights are stupid imho) and maybe they live long enough to be heroes. But that is the playstyle i personaly like and i tend to run and play campaigns lv 1-8 only. So,for me,5th ed as it is now is great. But if you like more cinematic,action flick style,where lv 1 charatcers are heroes,bump up their HP. Con stat + max at lv 1 gives enough hp to make it less leathal on low levels. But,don't bump monster hps. With few bad rolls it can turn into the grindfest and drag on. Been there,done that. It can become very boring very fast.
(Reply to #23) Shiroiken	Tony_Vargas wrote:
#27 Darth_Caffeineus Aug 15, 2014 4:09:02	~~It is still possible that the game is actually deeply modular, and once the DMG is released it will show that it will be able to smoothly add modules that really support multiple playstyles. However, right now the game looks very much like it only supports the D&D I used to play in the 80's when PC's lives were not worth the paper there were written on, and there was little difference in playstyle from it and Paranoia (make sure you have 6 identical clones ready, you are going to need them). Yes you can cut down on the TPK's by adopting the fantasy protracted land war in east Asia model of treating every situation like you are in dire danger at every single moment, but this got real old for me around the time George Bush Sr (that's the late 80's btw, if you are really bad at history) starting his presidential campaign.   To me heroic fantasy is both heroic and fantastical, as it is ruled by the laws, conventions and tropes of fiction as opposed to the laws of phyics of our universe. In our universe people who get stabbed with swords or whacked with axes tend to fall over dead, regardless of how much training or experience they have (and the don't out run fiery explosions either). In a heroic fantasy universe things tend to behave like they are in a 80's action movie (or like in the Epic Poem Beowulf),  and people like the guy on the cover of the basic red box go toe to toe with huge dragons and wearing little more for protection then furry boxer shots and a snazzy vest, and totally ruin the dragons day.   To each his own, some people think a 1st level PCs are the red shirts that die before the first commercial break in Star Trek, and I think examples of  1st level character are Star Lord at the beginning of Guardians of the Galaxy or the Young Justice team in episode one. The promised options will be greatly helpful once they come, however I think the default options will at least make choose to stop participating in organized play, as I had enough of that kind of D&D back when ALF and Mr. Belvedere were on the air.
#28 dragonfather Aug 15, 2014 6:41:19	I personally think the level 1 hit point totals make characters too squishy at low levels and restricts what I can throw at them.   My houserule is all player characters have 5 bonus hitpoints. A wizard with 12 con has 12hp instead of 7, a tanky fighter with 16 con has 18hp instead of 13. At higher levels the 5hp becomes a negligable difference in survivability but for the first 3 levels or so makes me able to send a wider variety of threats at the player without worrying about the wizard getting one shot by the 1d6+1 scimitar, which is never fun for anyone.   I also tend to start players at level 2 instead of 1 because level 1 goes by in one session and is just warm up by killing a couple of kobolds and hobgoblins. It gives them multiclass options immediately that can help their concept plus it saves time since people spend way more time on the inital few levels deciding what they want to level up in. Towards the later game people have their character paths fleshed out and already know what they are doing when they level.
#29 TiaNadiezja Aug 15, 2014 7:09:34	From my level 1 experience in my non-module-based (or, rather, converted-BECMI-module-based) campaign, and from what I'm hearing, I think the problem may be less "level 1 is too lethal" and more "modules don't follow the encounter design guidelines from Basic, and that's a problem because it makes them horribly deadly."   I think we can blame THAT on the fact that a primary part of encounter design - the group size multiplier - didn't exist when the modules were being designed.
#30 Tony_Vargas Aug 15, 2014 11:48:03	JohnLynch wrote:
#31 JohnLynch Aug 15, 2014 11:58:53	In 5 years of playing with 5th edition level HP it has not been my experience that first level characters are anywhere near as fragile as you claim. It's unfortunate that your experience is different. You have the tools and ability to modify the game to suit your tastes so I'm not sure why your arguing and what you hope it will achieve.
#32 vacthok Aug 15, 2014 13:22:00	I recently got the Starter Set and started up the adventure as the DM.  We had a last minute cancellation before the first session, so rather than A) wait or B) send the party out with less than what the encounters were balanced for, I rolled up a quick human Bard to play a support/buffer role.  I used the variant human, and gave him that "Inspire everyone for level+CHA mod THP once per rest" feat.  The extra 4HP quite literally saved each player at least once during the ambush/goblin cave encounters (they took a rest after the ambush), but things were still pretty threatening and challenged the players well.   Perhaps providing the party with a temporary "Inspiring" NPC for the first level, or giving the players some sort of "Rookie's Enthusiam" ability (that only works for the first level) that provides some THP after each rest might help, without having to readjust things at a later level?
#33 animeus Aug 15, 2014 18:29:25	TiaNadiezja wrote:
#34 TiaNadiezja Aug 15, 2014 18:31:11	animeus wrote:
#35 animeus Aug 15, 2014 18:36:03	TiaNadiezja wrote:
#36 JohnLynch Aug 15, 2014 19:19:52	One shot != killing   If you don't enjoy hobgoblins and similarly CR'd monsters you have the power to play at a higher level, with more HP or using lower CR'd monsters. My group enjoyed the danger level 1 presented. The fact it only lasted half a session meant it didn't get boring.
#37 Noon Aug 15, 2014 22:23:53	Tony_Vargas wrote:
(Reply to #37) Darth_Caffeineus
(Reply to #38) Shiroiken	Darth_Caffeineus wrote:
#40 Brock_Landers Aug 16, 2014 8:40:16	JohnLynch wrote:
#41 pauln6 Aug 16, 2014 14:28:20	I think the simplest solution is to allow max hp plus a rolled HD at level 1 and cap the bonus for Con at level 10.  You'll still have a gap of up to 69hp between Con 8 and Con 20 by level 20 but I think that's more workable than the current 120 gap.  It's hard to say if it is easier to die at level 1 than it was in previous editions but I don't think it should take that long to roll up a new character given how simple level 1 has been made intentionally in 5e.  However, my preference is an extra hit die to make the game a bit more fun for level 1.