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| #1ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 13:19:59 | The Healing Niche I thought I would start this post exploring the healing niche in 5E. Through out the playtest there were massive arguments over things like over night healing and HD based healing. Now 5E is out and I have made it to level 10 both as a player and as a DM I think I can leave the realms of theory craft behind and put pen to paper.
The overnioght healing thing is what it is, I prefer a slower healing rate but 5E PCs do get less spells than AD&D and 3.x spell casters. This is also compounded by the healing spells are often less efficient than previous ediuitons verison, you get less of them and in 3.x case you can’t use a wand of CLW or buy cheap scrolls either. Monsters also deal more damage so a CLW in AD&D is better relative to a cure spell in 5E that cures 1d8+wisdom modifier or a 1d8+caster level in 3.5. Right now 3.5 may as well be Pathfinder and clerics in that edition get to heal 1d6/2 levels using their channel energy ability.
5E however does have an abundance of out of combat healing via short rests and over night healing. The life clerics channel divinity, the healing feat, fighter second wind ability all recharge on a short rest and various classes have access to healing spells or abilities. You can also use HD based healing as well. You can also cast prayer of healing outside of combat with its 10 minutes casting time.
With 1 exception healing in combat is somewhat inefficient and I would almost go as far as saying it is a waste of spell slots. Most of the clerics have some very nice domain spells that are best used for other things instead of healing. The one exception to in combat healing is the life cleric and maybe some of the higher level healing spell. Consider using a cure spell to cast a cure moderate wounds effect (2d8+3 hit point single target) to a Prayer of Healing spell that heals the same amount to everyone in the party. The cure spell is worth preparing for emergencies I just try and avoid using it when I can. The healing spells I consider “good”.
Aura of Vitality (for bards not Paladins) Prayer of Healing Healing Word (for emergencies, its meh to actually regain hit points) Mass Healing Word (for life clerics) Mass Cure Good Berry (slow out of combat healing)
While not a spell as such I also consider the ehaling feat a great feat. At low levels it will out strip even a life clerics ability to heal and at higher levels it is like having an extra mass cure spell per short rest so it is kind of the equivalent of having several 5th level spell slots available. In addition when you stabilize someone they gain 1 hit point and you can do this an unlimited amount of times per day or at least limited by cheap healer’s kits. The healing kit also combines well with the thief cunning action ability for bonus action healing.
So who is the best healer in the game? A basic answer to this question is the life cleric and technically one would be correct. The best healer in the game I think is actually the life cleric with a single Druid level to gain access to the good berry spell. This combines with the life cleric bonus 2 hit points per spell level and turns each good berry spell into regain 30 hit points per spell which is vastly more efficient than casting a cure spell using a level 1 spell slot.
The next best healer I the game is a single classed life cleric followed by a multiclass land Druid with a single cleric level of course using the life domain ability with good berry. Even a single classed land druid makes a decent healer as it can gain back half its levels in spell slots once per day. This means by 8th level it can recall back 4 level 1 spells for example and those spells are good berry. Good berry is also fun as it lasts 24 hours so any unused Druid spells can be converted to a pile of good berries each night.
Moving away from the obvious life cleric and the less obvious land Druid this leaves the other classes. Looking at the rest of the clerics they are all average at healing compared with the life cleric. For example a light cleric using a mass healing word only heals 1d4+4 hit points to each target assuming they have an 18 wisdom. A life cleric heals 1d4+10 to each target and that’s is almost double the healing rate. Other clerics such as light and tempest get to kill stuff faster via spells like fireball and maximized call lightning’s/destructive wave spells so there is that. Hopefully such clerics will have other healing options available so they can actually use some of those spells for things that do not involve healing.
The Bard can also be a semi decent healer because they can steal spells off other classs and this means they can actually get spells like Aura of Vitality before the actual Paladin class. Aura of Vitality heals 2d6 hit points per round over 10 rounds so it is more out of combat healing as well as you do not want this spell interrupted. I took this spell at level 10 along with destructive wave as a valor bard, the lore bard can get it at level 6 if they really want it although they have competition from haste, fireball, fly etc.
The healing burden ideally should be spread among 2 or 3 PCs IMHO both in case the primary healer goes down and because there are some powerful cleric spells even a life cleric will want to use on occasion. Even life clerics do not get that many spells to go around and channel divinity may be limited so there is also that to consider. In an ideal situation you will be healing via short rests, if not even inefficient cure spells start looking a bit better.
Short rests may not do you much good running through an irradiated jungle being chased by gun toting neo Germans with 19th and 20th century levels of magic tech such as rifles and mustard gas grumble grumble grumble. |
| #2DaveDashNov 09, 2014 14:08:04 | Heal and Mass Heal in particular are ridiculous amounts of healing and are worth it, but all the cure spells are pretty inefficent. Mass heal totally trivilizes things like Dragons breath, but you can only do it once per day.
Paladins are fairly awesome healers with their Lay on Hands (Level x2 worth of hitpoints) , that cures disease AND poison.
The times when I've had to use healing in combat are in scenarios such as Dragons breath weapons, or long fights that start to wear down on the players resources, and that's only been at the upper levels. In my level 12 group I think I've used healing in combat once.
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| #3ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 14:14:41 |
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| #4GladiusLegisNov 09, 2014 14:18:17 | Paladins actually get Aura of Vitality before Valor Bards do. (Lv. 9 vs. Lv. 10) |
| #5ZardnaarNov 09, 2014 14:23:33 |
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| #6dmgorgonNov 10, 2014 7:15:55 | That's interesting Zard. At this point, I doubt the DMG will provide an alterntive healing and resting rule that takes all this into consideration.
I want to remove/house rule Hit Dice, Second Wind and all other forms of non-magical healing. I think it's clear that I'll have to grant more spell slots to the cleric.
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| #7RastapopoulosNov 10, 2014 9:24:57 |
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| #8bawylieNov 10, 2014 9:43:24 | And Rastapop boards the HP train. Even if in a measured sense.
Welcome aboard. Room for all. |
| #9RastapopoulosNov 10, 2014 10:06:57 |
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| #10ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 10:19:40 | Because of the rapid healing rate our DM often keeps hitting us so even getting a short rest can be difficult at times. We normally get 1 short rest a day, 2 would be semi rare.
It means the Warlock class would be a rare pick in our games except as part of a multi class. |
| #11dmgorgonNov 10, 2014 10:27:37 |
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| #12RastapopoulosNov 10, 2014 10:38:10 |
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| #13RastapopoulosNov 10, 2014 10:41:16 |
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| #14ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 10:43:47 | I'll see what the DMG says but I am thinking something like the lines of death at -10, 1-3 hit point over night healing, regain 1HD a day not half and short rests only work once per day for gritty healing rates.
Probably have to tone down the encounters as we normally have hard hard hard deadly gdeadly deadly or something like that for our combats.
Also might yoink the basic skeilton of 5E, marry it to the round structure of 4E and use an AD&D/3E classes for my homebrew D&D.
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| #15ZardnaarNov 10, 2014 10:45:25 |
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| #16dmgorgonNov 10, 2014 12:28:23 |
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| #17NevvurNov 10, 2014 17:43:04 | I can't recall running a session where in-combat, spell slot (or other daily resource) healing wasn't used. Not every encounter, mind you, but when swords start swinging and spells start slinging, there's a very high probability a PC will KO if the healer isn't on his game. I throw a lot of nasty at my players, but they aren't tactical numbskulls and haven't had a death since level 2 (now at 6)
Point is, efficiency of in-combat healing spells be damned. They exist, and its the DM's prerogative to give them a reason to exist, often in the form of combat that can wipe a party without it. While out of combat healing is preferable for reasons of resource management, that preference gets swept aside when multiple PCs are a hit away from KO. I don't think 'inefficiency' is the problem so much as the DM not challenging his table. |
| #18RastapopoulosNov 10, 2014 18:37:42 |
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| #19RastapopoulosNov 10, 2014 18:40:24 |
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| #20NevvurNov 10, 2014 20:52:36 |
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| #21ElfcrusherNov 11, 2014 1:31:32 |
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| #22dmgorgonNov 11, 2014 8:18:35 |
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| #23RastapopoulosNov 11, 2014 8:46:40 |
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| #24dmgorgonNov 11, 2014 11:41:07 |
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| #25NevvurNov 11, 2014 12:24:28 | A common theme I infer reading some of these posts is that some players/DMs are still looking at Hit Points as Meat Points. That is, when your HPs are reduced, you've taken a proportionate amount of damage to your body compared to your maximum. That shouldn't be the case, as stated on p.197 PHB -- Describing the Effects of Damage.
I sense this because I used to think of HPs that way myself, but once you get your head out of that perspective, Hit Dice (or Healing Surges in 4e) start to make a lot more sense. Think of HPs more as your will to keep on fighting and a measure of luck. It can also be your capacity to withstand pain if HP loss cannot be described as anything but actual damage, but this damage is not significant. Generally, it's only the last hit that counts, which is why you're still combat effective at 1 HP.
So on the flip side of describing HP loss as 'not loss of Meat Points', you may need to reevaluate how you describe the effects of healing. The full heal of a Long Rest is giving those achey muscles a chance to relax, cleaning out the minor cuts and scrapes, etc. Spending Hit Dice isn't innate Wolverine regeneration, but shoring up your resolve to press on with the quest, like John McClane walking off bullet wounds. The Healer feat isn't just slapping on a bandage like a pro, maybe it's applying smelling salts or giving the fantasy equivalent of an adrenaline shot. Magical healing doesn't have to just close wounds, it could embolden the spirit and liven the mind, maybe even leave a trace of divine providence in the form of restoring his 'luck'
Actual damage is repaired in a resource free way during downtime. HPs regained during the course of an adventure are just a hero being heroic. That said, if you are a player and your DM describes every loss of HPs as actual damage, it's a failing on the DM's part, not the system. I understand that describing hits as actual damage adds a visceral, dramatic element to combat, but if the only answer to that is creating house rules for the sake of 'realism' in your fantasy game, then have at it.
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| #26dmgorgonNov 11, 2014 14:10:14 |
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| #27OB1Nov 11, 2014 13:56:24 | While I also don't think of hit points as "meat points" however, I have been looking for a way to add some additional long term consequence to a player droping to 0 hit points and really like the above idea of PCs taking Con damage as a result of being knocked out. I've got one other idea, and would love some feedback on which sounds better or if either needs to be tweaked.
Original Plan - After a player drops to 0 hit points, they cannot heal past half total hit points until they have had 7 days of consecutive rest or received healing from a number of spells whose slots equal their level. (No HP recovered when using spells in this way)
Con Plan - First time player drops to 0 in 1 combat, 2 Con damage, each consecutive time, 1 Con Damage, each failed death saving throw, 1 Con damage. 1 Con point recovered per long rest or per healing spell slot used to heal PC (No HP recovered when using spells in this way)
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| #28NevvurNov 11, 2014 21:50:28 |
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| #29OB1Nov 12, 2014 17:31:25 | Nevvur, I'm at the same spot, not ready to implement. Luckly I stil have a couple of weeks before our next game to decide. Still may go with the third choice of just doing nothing. I"m trying to envoke that season 1 BSG feeling of the hero's on the run and being constantly harried by a superior force, but am worried that either of the two solutions may end up being overkill and thus a TPK. |
| #30IxidorRSNov 13, 2014 6:54:58 | I don't think realistic wounds can be appropriately defined by the HP concept. Specific wounds can be more realistic (instead of 17 damage, your arm breaks) can be stronger fictionally but require more tracking. Converting the existing healing abilities and spells to define how they would work in that style of play sounds like a pain to me, though. So, I'm happy to continue with the abstract in most cases. |
| #31UchawiNov 13, 2014 16:10:46 | The biggest gap is "in combat" healing. As a DM, I can control recovery rates, items used, or universal concepts like hit dice. But modifying other classes to have healing abilities so you don't need a cleric is a little more difficult. That is the biggest fault I see in the game when it comes to healing. |
| #32DaveDashNov 13, 2014 17:19:04 | There is very little in combat healing now though, until the higher levels. Its a total waste spending valuable spell slots on 4d8+5 hitpoints, for example. |
| #33OB1Nov 13, 2014 17:46:00 |
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| #34RastapopoulosNov 13, 2014 19:54:42 |
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| #35ZardnaarNov 14, 2014 12:35:46 | I don't care what hit points are just the rate they are regained.
5E healing is very all over the place thoguh. Makes it hard to pace thing. In the good aold days it was do they have a cleric and you can take a good guess as to how much they can heal.
The ehaling rate is definately impacting 5Es pacing though. Hexcrawls do not work very well at all, short rest healing can be abundent and there are things like the life cleirc and healing feat as well.
For example 1 group has a life cleric (and temepst cleric) and the healer feat, the other group has a Druid, Thief w/healer feat and my bard as the healers. One goup has abundent healing the other group does not.
Party 1 short rest healing (avg) 155 hp/short rest (healer feat +life cleric) Party 2. short rest healing 1d8+ 87.5 (Bard ability+healer feat)
And thats on top of daily slots as well and a life cleric heals almost double the rate of the other clerics.
If more healing is needed we have to use daialy slots and Druids and Bards are not good at healing, no prayer of healing spell although my bard does have aura of vitality.
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| #36DaveDashNov 14, 2014 13:06:40 | Just remember of course you don't regain all your healing hit dice back after a long rest, only half. So you can be worn down over time. It's definitely more attrition warfare now though. |
| #37ZardnaarNov 14, 2014 13:20:19 |
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| (Reply to #37)DaveDash |
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| #39ZardnaarNov 14, 2014 13:34:26 |
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| #40DaveDashNov 14, 2014 13:40:22 | That's why Wizards and their rituals are awesome for foiling the DMs pacing plans. |
| #41ZardnaarNov 14, 2014 13:44:19 |
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| #42DaveDashNov 14, 2014 15:23:35 | Your group is smart with mechanics, mine are smart with tactics. Hordes of vampires wont get you when your leomunds hut is under water, and you all have water breathing. |
| #43ZardnaarNov 14, 2014 18:18:48 |
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| #44NevvurNov 14, 2014 22:55:34 | Rasta, I have no vested interest in how you run your table, but I'm curious how you describe wounds across large level differences. As you wrote, "when you get hit, you get hit."
Mechanically, the level 1 fighter who gets poked by a goblin spear for 6 damage is half dead, while the level 10 fighter is barley injured. Said fighters could have identical Constitution and ACs, the goblin has applied the same amount of precision and force in his attack, and a hit is a hit... The scenarios are identical in all ways except the fighters' maximum hit points. So there must be some scalability in how you describe damage? That itself is an abstraction, and IMO not very different from saying the 'damage' was a loss of mojo.
As for the extra layer of abstraction serving no useful purpose, I don't think having additional ways to describe the combat narrative beyond 'you got hit' is useless. |
| #45KitelessNov 15, 2014 0:42:40 | And for what it's worth, not every hit has to be a gash. A pommel bash to the gut or a strike to the face are wounds that would probably be plenty noticeable in a fight, and lead to the eventual wearing down of a character before they go down for the count, but typically recoverable over the period of a short rest (barring things like concussions and the like). |
| (Reply to #43)DaveDash |
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| #47ZardnaarNov 15, 2014 1:10:34 |
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| (Reply to #47)DaveDash |
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| #49ZardnaarNov 15, 2014 7:37:18 |
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| #50JohnLynchNov 16, 2014 1:08:40 | My group hasn't much cared who the optimal healer is. I'm glad to see that bards, paladins, Druids and rangers can step in for "in combat" healing (and stopping people from dying) with hit dice picking up the slack for out of combat healing. Players largely play whatever they want.
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| #51dmgorgonNov 17, 2014 8:50:09 |
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| #52NevvurNov 17, 2014 23:20:28 |
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| #53dmgorgonNov 18, 2014 6:14:05 |
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