When I downloaded the waterborne unearthed arcane last night, I was incredibly excited when I saw that they had re-introduced the swashbuckler class to 5e as a Rougish Archetype. I was a huge fan of the swashbuckler both in 3.5 and in pathfinder, so I've been hoping they would eventually bring it back.
But as I read the material, I couldn't believe how stupid it was. They took everything fun about the swashbuckler and dumbed it down to the point where I can't see anyone picking this over any of the other archetypes. It barely gives you anything, besides advantage on certain rolls and a bonus to sneak attack.
That's it?
What happened to the panache points? Why couldn't they use the same point-buy system they have for the 5e monk and give him all kinds of new attacks. Another great way would be to make the swashbuckler the rouge equivilant of the Eldritch Knight fighter sub-class. Give him hit dice to spend on all kinds of dynamic attacks. That would have been so much fun.
I really am disappointed that they took a great class and made it so weak and boring. The whole just thing feels half-assed. Does anyone else agree?
You are free to make your own homebrew archetypes. UA3 was all about doing just that. Just keep it balanced and you'll be fine.
Most people consider it to be pretty powerful.
Madmarrik wrote:
Kayal wrote:
They don't seem to want to add a lot of mechanical complexity to subclasses. I don't expect the "final" version (if said thing ever comes about) will have anything like panache points.
No new mini games / mechanics for new class archetypes.....one reason I went away from PF
The 3.5 swashbuckler was the joke. It was only good for a one-level dip to get Weapon Finesse for free.
pukunui wrote:
OP kinda has a point. If any style should take advantage of a system similar to the Battlemaster, the Swashbucker is it. The very name brings to mind Dynamic Action in combat. Tell ya the truth, I'm kinda disappointed it's not a Fighter archetype, anyways.
LupusRegalis wrote:
LupusRegalis wrote:
2nd Edition had warrior swashbucklers and rogue swashbucklers 'kits'.
To be a warrior swashbuckler the character had to have Str and Dex 13 minimum. A rogue swashbuckler had to have Str, Dex, Int, and Cha of 13 or more.
A warrior swashbuckler could choose rogue proficiencies ('skills') at normal cost (rather than double) and received a bonus to AC when wearing light or no armor. The drawback? Trouble seems to find the daring swasbuckler 
(DM adjucates).
A rogue swashbuckler gets a special disarm maneuver. Drawback is the same as for the fighter. Also, both are romantic figures and gain a bonus on reactions from members of the opposite sex (something that dates these products, no doubt).
= = =
Anyway, I s'pose they could do something similar with 5e. Give each class (fighter, rogue) its own swashbuckler archtype.
pukunui wrote:
The Unearthed Arcana article was about Swashbuckling rogue archetype. For swashbuckling fighter please look at the Battlemaster, it has everything you need to make a swashbuckler with maneuvers.
Glimjack wrote:
So..... if you want a swashbuckling fighter using manuevers, play a Dex-based Battlemaster then? Or take the martial adapt feat? It seems to me that the complaints in here are more over using the name Swashbuckler than anything to do with the actual subclass.
Its a warrior-ish Rogue subclass meant to make the most out of Two Weapon Fighting instead of Cunning Action. From that perspective, it does its job. But it apparently isn't worthy the name Swashbuckler for some reason?
EDIT - this reminds me so much of those old "How DARE the avenger and fey knight subclasses use the name paladin!" threads. A giant argument over naming conventions. Seriously, does the name really matter that much?
I generally agree. Feats exist and multi-classing exists to steal battlemaster goodies. The game tends to be better balanced so far because nobody can poach everything without giving something worthwhile up. Anything new they bring in needs to keep that in mind. In terms of stacking stat bonuses, they would probably be better off using wording like mage armour and the monk's class feature so that you can have one or the other but not both bonuses. Same goes for the mariner fighting style. It should state expressly that it does not stack with AC bonuses from any other figthing style. They need to stick to their guns on issues like that if they want the system to remain bounded. Same holds true for magical AC and shield bonuses.
You realize that makes no sense? Feats and Multi-classing change the dynamics much more than having the Designers actually take the time to create an archetype that uses similar systems. No different than the Fighter using the Spellcasting that Mages usually have by taking the Eldritch Knight archetype.
This isn't a Swashbuckler, it's just a poor imitation of the Bard minus it's usefulness and magic.
Well I allowed our rogue to change his archetype from assassin to swashbuckler since they'd just levelled at the end of our last session. He's only played swashbuckler one session but he did seem to prefer it over the assassin and he didn't use two-weapon fighting but did use cunning action. He used the starting features of the swashbuckler more than he used the assassin ones (they just hit level 6 so don't have the features gained at level 7).
Mephi1234 wrote:
LupusRegalis wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
The thing about 'swashbucklers' is that all sorts of martial classes can buckle the swash. It's like having a 'knight' class. Yes, you can certainly make a class that seems quite knightly, or quite swashbuckling, but its only necessary as far as the other classes fail to provide the mechanics required. In 5e, the battle master has a plethora of martial maneuvers. I actually like the swashbuckler the best of the new rules presented in this Unearthed Arcana. It lets you run a rogue with a swashbuckling flavor-- one that uses charisma based skills, is encouraged to be charismatic, and can hop up to any opponent and get sneak attack damage and then hop away.
If a person wants more martial maneuvers so that they can disarm and trip opponents, they could multiclass as a battle master fighter. A 3rd level swashbuckler/5th level battle master fighter is a good 8th level goal and would be kind of bad ass what with two weapon fighting style, battle master maneuvers, running up for 3 attacks (+2d6 sneak attack on one) each with +4 Dex bonus damage, and then hopping away.
In fact, if this rule was offerred for Adventurer's League, I would totally run a stout halfing swashbuckler, perhaps with the noble background and named Bombolo Blackfoot.
demon_idol wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
cowleymen wrote:
So, am I to understand that the OP's (and a few others) disgust and ridicule primarilty stems from the fact that WotC dared name this idea, "swashbuckler"? So now some people think that in order to be a Swashbuckler in play they have to take this particular subclass? That a dex-based battlemaster fighter, for example, can't call themselves (or generally be considered) a swashbuckler? Even if they fit the archetype?
Hehe. That's golden.
ChrisCarlson wrote:
I disagree. And to quote him/her...
Madmarrik wrote:
Okay well I feel that it is time to derail this thread into a preductive direction, and say thanks to those above that have already set the stage for this.
Let us evalutate the abilities of our seafairing campaign rogue. Let us ignore the name and focus purely on the crunch.
First off Level 3 abilities, we get three functions at level 3, the first is similar to an existing feat (mobility) in which any target you attack in melee cannot make opportunity attacks against you during your turn. (allowing for hit and run tactics)
Second effect: you get to add your charisma to your initative, seeing as the only other way to boost initiative is currently a feat, this is also a nice introduction, and allows your rogue to go first more often.
Third effect: any foe you take on where you do not have an adjacent ally to them you get advantage. (keep in mind as long as a rogue has advantage they have sneak attack, so at level three you have just been given an easy way to do sneak attack damage consistently)
Sounds like a pretty good set to me for level 3, consistent sneak attack, easier to go first (while rewarding you for being a social rogue), and a way out of sticky situations without disengaging.
For sake of fairness let us compare this with the other archtypes of the rogue
Thief: gets extra options for bonus actions on his turn (sleight of hand, pick lock, disarm trap, use an object), better climb speed, and better jump distance.
Assassin: you gain proficiency in disguise kit, and poisoners kit (if you did not already have them), and you get to have advantage on targets that have not taken actions yet (so if you go first you get sneak attack damage) Also if you are attacking during a surprise round (as one of the few ways for a target to be considered surprised) you get an auto crit as long as you hit.
Arcane Trickster: you learn three cantrips including mage hand, you gain access to first level spells, and you can use mage hand for a variety of tricks (stowing something on someone else, taking something stowed on someone else, and picking locks at a distance.) All of this as a bonus action since you can now also use mage hand as a bonus action.
At least the third level abilities seem to hold up when I look at them side by side.
Phase two level 9 abiltiy
Swashbuckler: gets and ability that allows him to either charm or taunt a target at will this is fantastic out of combat for the face of the party (being a charismatic rogue I think this to be a strong possibility) and in combat if you need to stop someone from I don't know ganking the mage or healer well you just found a way. So I would mark this as a useful utility ability.
Thief: gets truly optimized stealth, with free advantage, ontop of what most likely is a expertised skill for them, and an already high dex character, they are going to be hard to find.
Assassin: spend gold and time to become someone else that doesn't really exist. Useful in social games. Also to skip out on your bar tab.
Arcane Trickster: well by 9th level we have second level spells, and if we cast spells while hiding we give people disadvantage on saves, well this can be useful for most illusion spells, and I can see it coming in handy, good utility, and can be alright as combat with the right spells ( flaming sphere anyone)
Phase three level 13 ability
Swashbuckler: spend bonus action for advantage on dex (acrobatics) or STR (athltetics) seeing as str may not be your best stat this is where I would expect it to be used the most. while acrobatics will not need it as much in the hands of a master rogue. Not as good as some earlier abilities they gained, but situationally useful, especially when the DM cruelly calls upon the party to swim for their lives and you're being weighed down by treasure (I swear I have only done this to my players, twice, well maybe three times)
Thief: Use magic device: so at 13th level, I can now use scrolls, wands, staffs, rods, any tool since they can't be classist, racist, or hold my level against me. pretty sweet.
Assassin: Imposter: if you can stalk someone for about 9 hours you get advantage on pretending to be them via deception checks. Once again great for social campaigns.
Arcane Trickster: okay so we know have third level spells, and as a bonus action we can get ourselves free advantage on attack rolls (or also known consistent sneak attack damage)
Okay so Swashbucklers ability is not as cool as arcane trickster or thief but I believe it holds its own with assassin.
Phase four level 17 ability
Swashbuckler: once per short or long rest, reroll an attack roll, you get advantage on this roll. not bad, you might already have advantage but a free reroll can make all of the difference. (I think I mgith make a halfling swashbuckler soon, reroll my nat 1's have this ability in my back pocket and pickup luck for a feat, I will be the luckiest little halfling ever)
Thief: When you aren't surprised you get two turns one as normal and one at minus 10, okay pretty sweet ability can't use while surprised but at this level you probably can take the alertness feat for +5 init, and no more surprise. Which makes for a pretty sweet combo, only on round one of combat but still really nice.
Assassin: okay so this ability is kind of interesting based on the qualifier that you need to hit a surprised foe, it means we are already getting our auto crit on them, so it is a DC save for them to not take double crit damage. Nice upgrade to his earlier ability.
Arcane Trcikster: once per long rest, we can basically have a battle of magic wills, there casting modifier vs. our save dc if we win the spell fails, and if it is a level one spell or cantrip you get to keep it for 8hrs as a spell known, plus they can't use the spell again.
This is circumstancial but can be very powerful.
So my conclusion is that the swashbuckler starts out strong, and slows down at higher levels, probably a good multiclassing choice based on this. I will also stand by that it is still a good choice for the combat heavy rogue.
Nice assessment, Lord_Kadarian!
ChrisCarlson wrote:
Grazel wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Grazel wrote:
We used to make do with the old swashbuckler. You got +2 AC in light armor if you had a spare hand empty and a +4 reaction bonus on memebr of the opposite sex. And that was about it.
Madmarrik wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
mellored wrote:
Lord_Kadarian wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Tempest_Stormwind wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
sandvirm wrote:
Lord_Kadarian wrote:
Lord_Kadarian wrote:
CCS wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Unlike Assassin, which is bottom heavy, the Swashbuckler shines with Panache and Elegant Maneuver (grapple becomes an easy option even with only lip service to Str, just get Expertise in Athletics and take Advantage on your roll). The low level abilities are pretty bad.
I think they avoided complexity intentionally for supplemental content that's effectively a "rough draft", less things to balance means it's more likely to not have anything too crazy.