Talk about all stuff Rogue here.
- Roleplaying
- Builds
- Specific Abilities or Features
- Multiclassing Ideas
- Etc.
I like most of the changes from the playtest packet to the release of Basic. The Sneak Attack scaling is insane (and that you roll it double when you crit!!). I'm a little bummed they only include one "path" (this applies to all classes) but it makes sense. I'll just keep using the Assassin line from the packet until the PHB comes out, at which point it will probably be different and I'll have to re-work some stuff.
I love the Reliable Talent feature (ability checks can't be lower than 10), but level 11 seems a little high. I remember at an early point in the playtest it was available right at level 1 or something like that. Might have been overpowered or something, I'm not sure.
I've got a level 1 Rogue in a playtest campgaign that I'm going to (partially) covert to the Basic release for our session this weekend and I'm really looking forward to gaining some levels and seeing all the new stuff first hand.
I'm hesitant to say it but I think that, maybe, possibly, finally, I might actually like the way the rogue is represented in this edition as opposed to disliking most other edition's versions.
I might even be able to play my favourite character of all time, one that has never quite been able to fit into any particular edition or even system. There was always an element here or there that made it "not the true version of the character" but rather a facisimile that I ended up turning into something else.
A rogue that dual-wields daggers but tends to avoid melee if possible, using those daggers to deliver devestatingly accurate and damaging blows from a distance. This is why he carries nineteen of them... and yes, that is very possible as I've equipped myself with that many in one of my early LARP'ing phases (that I quickly grew out of and am ashamed of ever having involved myself in).
The thing is that he's not really a combat-wombat. He's more the type to watch, learn, manipulate and influence a situation, it's just that he can, if cornered, be a dangerous combatant.
I've always found that I can never quite swing that in most systems due to something always being a tad off. Like I couldn't get the right stat balance or I had to sacrifice too much or become too weak in one area to make it work or that a class had one aspect but not the other, or I couldn't get the right mix of powers, etc. But so far it's looking like the thief archetype is basically the exact class I'm looking for to emulate this character that I've had sitting on the backburner for 20 odd years, never quite managing to get what I need to play it effectively.
So all in all, it's looking like a positive for me. I definitely can't wait to test it out though 
I love cunning action. It gives the rogue an interesting choice every round. I also like how duel wielding is a bonus action, so the rogue player has to make more choices (can't do both cunning action and duel attack on the same round). It plays really well.
For me, this is the best rogue we've ever had in any edition of D&D.
I'll finally be able to make my favorite dwarf fighter/thief from back in 2e without having to multiclass as a fighter.
I wish sneak attack scaled much more slowly but applied to all attacks. And that rogues received extra attack at 8th level.
New sneak attack scaling:
1d6 at 1
2d6 at 5
3d6 at 9
4d6 at 13
5d6 at 17
I am also sad that cunning action and off-hand attacks don't stack.
I've been playing rogues since the March 2013 packet. I liked some of the non-combat features the class had back then (like getting to roll extra skill dice on Charisma checks and being immune to disadvantage on Charisma checks), but when they introduced Cunning Action that was awesome. I really felt like I was playing a rogue when I could dart into melee, strike with two weapons, and then slip away again. Of course, they've since nerfed that quite a bit ~ what with TWF and Cunning Action now being bonus actions and Disengage no longer giving you any movement itself. I didn't mind so much losing the TWF but I did mind getting stuck in melee. I can see how that might have been overpowered, though, as I was pretty much never getting hit ever. Still, it felt very rogue-like, and "hit and run" may still be a viable tactic should the Mobile feat make it through to the final rules unscathed (that's the one that lets you avoid provoking OAs when you make a melee attack against your target, regardless of whether or not you hit).
I ended up MCing both of my rogue PCs into spellcasting classes (my first is a lightfoot halfling rogue [thief] 4 / bard 2 / sorcerer [wild magic] 2, and the second is a forest gnome rogue 2 / warlock [fey] 3). It was fun being able to get sneak attack with things like ray of frost, but then they went and nixed that too by declaring that Sneak Attack only works with finesse weapons. There's still some fun to be had as a MCed "arcane trickster" type, though, so I'm not too bummed. The bump up to a d8 hit die and the increased SA scaling helps make up for it.
Lawolf wrote:
Other than Stroke of Luck, I like the rogue fairly well. I believe it is one of the better incarnations. It definitely has a lot of flavor.
The pregen halfling rogue in the Starter Set is a character I'd be thrilled to play--and I typically dislike pregens and simple character builds. But this one just nails it.
akaddk wrote:
I love pretty much everything about the rogue this time around. I can't think of a single complaint. I LOVE how cunning action makes the rogue a sort of "batman utility belt" sort of character. I love the rate at which sneak attack scales. I like that sneak attack can only be used with thematic weapons (though I kind of wish it worked with all light weapons so that people could more easily make Strength based thugs). I like that they played to the whole "still has a lower bab than many of the other martial classes" by giving them only one single attack (since multiple attacks seem to be the way they model bab/Thac0 this time around), and yet didn't reduce the rogue's DPR from that dealt by other martial characters with that choice (due to the fact that they have the same proficiency bonus to hit and a potent sneak attack). I love their strength with skills. I love the fact that the network of mechanics between spells like knock, invisibility, and rogue skills/class abilities ensures that magic does not flat out replace what a rogue can do (and is usually more effective when used to augment a rogue). As a rogue player, I am very happy this time around.
Leugren wrote:
I also like the rogue. The only thing that I might want to swap out is UMD.
masterfat78 wrote:
I can see a lot of positive in this rogue but It's really difficult for me to see they never get another attack. I'd like to see some more combative rogue sub-classes. I like what we have for what it's supposed to do but I'm not seeing the flexiblity this edition has made me hopeful for.
I'm loving the way expertise has replaced a huge pool of trained skill points; it rearranges the whole skill monkey proposition! 
Edit: Oops, speaking from a 3E perspective, if I haven't said so already.
I am looking forward to playing a Str build rogue, and about 50 other types of rogues.
Definitely going to play a rogue. I'm hoping the Assassin Rogue is in the PHB. Maybe I'll get lucky and they'll even be a subclass based on the Shadowstep Rogue from 4E.
Rhenny wrote:
I like rogue schemes in the earlier packet in principle even if the execution was hard going. I'm a bit nervous that there won't be enough variation in the subclasses to build an acrobat or an investigator but once we have more subclasses and feats in the mix I'll judge the class then. I am nervous about the number of sneak dice but from what I can see, the maths should balance out.
I really like the rogue presented in basic. But I am concerned about the subclasses. They felt very strange to me in the playtest, so I can only hope that they have received an overhaul.
Daganev wrote:
You know, it occurs to me that Thieves' Cant is a highly underrated and probably overlooked ability. If you read through the ability carefully, it has the potential to be quite good if used to its full advantage. It's one of those abilities that relies on a clever player and a good DM, but I really believe that it could be almost overpowered in the wrong (or if you're a true rogue player, the right) circumstances.
akaddk wrote:
If one of my players plays a rogue and decides to use thieves' cant, I will totally require him to talk in slang 
I just realised something else. You spelled rouge wrong.
One must be careful to clarify between 'Cheeky Rouge' and 'Cheeky Rogue'.
You may encounter both in a bordelo, but one may be less pleasurable than the other... 
mearls tweeted use an object does not work with magic items, inc potions, and that that is an error. so fast hands is not broken. although I still see it working with acid pots, but unsure. rogue still awesome either way.
Not sure why people are making such a big deal out of acid. It's 25gp a pop. Not exactly the type of thing you want to be slinging two of every round.
What type of Rogue do you guys like to play?
- Thief
- Assassin
- Con-man
- Swashbuckler
- Scout
- Spy
- Poisoner
There's so many good ones out there, certainly more than I can come up with right now! I tend to go a little broad and do a bit of everything, which I guess is another type (and popular, how could I forget!?): Jack of all Trades.
I've loved rogues and rangers over several editions.
My wife's first D&D character was a (3.5e) halfing rogue named Aphid, who took a few wizard levels too. She was badass. My first 2e PC to live to 7th level was a ranger. He wasn't a Drizzt clone, either. He was a human who liked bows for the most part and longsword/buckler in melee
I made a rogue based on a mini I liked, LOL. Sorry. This guy lived through 3.5 and 4e.
That dude will totally work in 5e.
I've enjoyed the ninja type, the straight up criminal type, and the charming guy who always gets into (and out of) sticky situations type.
Rogues are fun. The only PC I ever enjoyed more was a 3.5 monk named Soon. I still wouldn't mess with Soon. Even people in the local D&D community talk about not messing with Soon. Because: Soon. Yeah, he was OP. Not wizard 3rd ed OP, but OP nonetheless.
I played again with my group yesterday, but we got 3 new members. One of which was another Rogue! At first I was a little bummed (personal preference: I like everyone in a group to be a different race and a different class, because I like the mental imagery of the disparate group), but it turned out to be really fun.
We were able to secretly communicate with each other using Thieves' Cant (which also led to a lot of laughs from the group, they were all saying to them it sounded like we were just talking about nonsense like bees or strange fish for 10 minutes straight) and it really helped bring the new players into the existing adventuring group, since I was able to trust her almost right away and she vouched for her friends.
We haven't been in a dungeon yet or any situation with trap disarming, so I'm still eagerly awaiting that chance to flex my Rogue skills.
One thing I really want to do at some point is either multiclass into Wizard or take those feats to get some Wizard spells: Invisibility and Mage Hand, specificially. Maybe I can get some kind of flash powder stuff. So ninja!
9bit wrote:
Caliburn101. wrote:
High elf rogues with the minor illusion cantrip are pretty amazing.
Also, two weapon fighting + sneak attack is great at low levels.
Mephi1234 wrote:
Lots of bad/stupid stuff with the rogue. Sneak attack on advantage will mean you can sneak attack on the advantage you get from barbarian raging, which of course makes no sense as you are obviously not "subtle" like sneak attack describes. Just another of the zillion problems with the advantage mechanic and overusing it.
Thieves' Cant makes it sound like all rogues are part of a secret inter-planar club where everyone gets the same decoder ring. Pretty silly but not really a big issue.
Cunning Action is utterly busted. Being able to run 50% faster than any other person, but only in combat, is ridiculous. Not a fan of cartoon mechanics. Why they choose to simulate children's cartoons rather than an actual fight is beyond me, but I don't want to role-play children's cartoons.
Ability Score Improvement. Making this a class-level thing instead of a characer-level thing is pretty dumb. The end result is people that multi-class aren't as strong/pretty/smart/whatever as people that don't. What a bizarre unintended consequence.
Uncanny Dodge. Suffers the same problem we saw throughout the playtest with "on-reaction" abilities. Diminished value at higher levels as creatures get multi-attack, and varying value against creatures with fewer higher damage attacks.
*note* it's a bit vague if a spell that has an attack roll counts as an attack. It doesn't qualify under "Attack", but it does in "Making an Attack". So if this works on spells or not is tough to say.
Evasion. Nice to see they got the name right. The playtest had us worried.
Blind Sense. Apparantly rogues become magic. It doesn't require the invisible or hidden creature to make any noise, just exist, so much for invisible golems. Weird.
Elusive. Wha? You're so evasive that even while restrained by being tied to a mast you don't grant advantage. Again, overuse and misuse of the advantage/disadvantage mechanic.
Stroke of Luck. Busted and weird. People will overlook that because it's a capstone power, even though they shouldn't.
MechaPilot wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Daganev wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
So much Rogue love! I also really like everything about the new rogue, even Use Magic Device. I think it is just one of those cool features that won't come up a lot but when it does everyone thinks it is awesome.
UMD goes back more than 3.X with chance to use some items in older editions. I like the ability for thief rogues but it might be rather minor depending on how much magic the DM has in the campaign.
Rogue Pros:
- Dexterity and Constitution are the most frequently used Attributes. Dex based classes are thus the least MAD, and can therefore spend most or all of their Ability Score Increases on Feats.
- Can deal respectable damage every round with melee or ranged weapons thanks to easily triggered Sneak Attack that can be used at any range against any enemy.
- Cunning Action class ability lets you Dash, Dodge, or Hide as a Bonus Action. Thus you will almost never be pinned down or surrounded by enemies, and if you can find something to hide behind, you can Move, take an Action, Move some more, then Hide, making it extremely difficult for a sniper rogue to be targeted by enemies that don't Ready an Action against you. The sniper role synergizes very well with Evasion, which makes it very hard to target the Rogue with a most area of effect attacks.
- Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, and other defensive abilities, combined with high Dex and Con and the default ability to retreat or hide as a Bonus Action make the Rogue extremely hard to kill, unless their non-proficient Saves are targeted.
- Can be effective using a number of different Skills, which can be used at-will and repeatedly throughout the day.
- Although there are a lot of caveats, Stealth can be a particularly powerful Skill that Rogues can excel at, and combat is usually very quick/deadly and often determined in the first 1-2 rounds.
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Potentially very potent if you can find a useful magic item you can spam. Thieve's Reflexes is a potent high level class ability which can be used to gain an extra turn in every combat without the need to Rest.
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RAW Fast Hand's ability would be uber useful with Magic Items. Lets hope that someone talks some sense into Mearls and lets it stand as is, instead of nerfing it and making it nearly useless by limiting it to non-magic items.
Rogue Cons:
- Unless they are using a magic item, Rogue actions will almost always target an enemy's AC, whereas spells can target a variety of Ability Saves. Therefore other then Advantage/Disadvanatage, the success chance of a Rogue's attacks are basically determined by the DM before combat starts, wheras players with access to magic can target an enemy's weakest Attribute.
- Most Rogues will settle into a specific set of Actions and Bonus Actions, and repeat one of three-ish routines repeatedly with very little variation, over and over and over and over again, in almost every combat. (You will either Move/Attack/Move/Hide, Move/Attack/TWF Attack/Move, or Attack/Disengage or Dash/Move). The timing of excatly when you move might vary slightly. Attacks might be replaced by 1-3 Magic Item options at higher levels. But magic items are very limited, so even then the Rogue's options will change very rarely from level to level, and all players have access to most magic items.
- Most Skill uses are inferior to spells which duplicate or replace them (example, Fly is strickly superior to Climb in most circumstances). And so unless the party is in a "world's largest dungeon" or "beat the clock" situation where their ability to take Rests is artificially limited by the DM, the Rogue is actually less effective at solving many exploration and roleplaying encounters then the Wizard or (with the right Domain) Cleric.
- Deals less damage per round then magic users when they use spells and can target more then 1 enemy.
On balance, I would say that the 5E Rogue is a lot more interesting and useful then the 1E, 2E, or 3.0/3.5E Rogue. But it is a lot less interesting and useful then the 4E Rogue or Pathfinder Rogue with Archetypes. If you're playing a mid-high level game, I don't see a strong crunch reason to play one.
TLDR: Cool class, but sucks compared to magic users.
Mephi1234 wrote:
I like how UMD is specific for the Thief rogue. Nice and thematic.
Daganev wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Leugren wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Interesting rogue tactic here when you have no allies fighting your target.
1. Take expertise in athletics.
2. Fight with two weapons.
3. Use your offhand attack to "shove" enemies knocking them prone.
4. Attack the prone target with your main hand to get sneak attack damage.
Lawolf wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
One of my players says he feels that the Rogue is more powerful and outshines the other classes so far, because of it's ability to get sneak attack so often. He pointed out higher levels when the rogues sneak attack damage goes up quite a bit.
Im im not sure where I sit with that yet as I still get to know the classes but I was wondering what you guys felt. Does the rogue seem more powerful than other classes to anyone else?
Sands666 wrote:
1eejit wrote:
Yep, I think a roller might be handy for that, and some higher-level spells.
1eejit wrote:
Wow another dissociation. Good catch. So the rule for me would be that any single target can never be sneak attacked more than once per turn. The rogue must announce he is sneak attacking in advance of rolling the to hit roll.
And no I don't think the rogue is too powerful. He is good though which is great.
MechaPilot wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
1eejit wrote:
That sounds like fair enough house-ruling for your group, but if it was the official rule there'd be a minor shitstorm for WotC as it would so heavily favour a single playstyle for rogue combat over the others.
Yeah right now, I am starting to feel like the Rogue seems too powerful in comparison to other characters. The rogue can easily set up sneak damage to be used every round. And when the rogue is dealing 10d6 plus damage on each of those hits, that's making other classes look weak as hell to me right now.
Well it does seem like a lot compared with other physical damage dealers, but Meteor Swarm is four times as much (if save is failed, twice as much if successful) in four spheres each 80 feet across. Obviously that's far more limited in how often you can use it but it could in theory do four times as much damage as a sneak attack to literally hundreds of enemies in a single round. With a range of a mile.
Yeah, other classes have powers and spells and things that they can combo together to make a big attack with, but these are usually one off things like a spell or action surge. But the Rogue's sneak damage seems too easily acheived to me, given how much damage it ends up doing. If there were less opportunities for it in combat I might think it would be okay. I am starting to consider scaling the damage differently though...
Sands666 wrote:
Sands666 wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
ChrisCarlson wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Sneak Attack always requires an attack roll, and thus always targets AC. Magic will be able to target any Ability Score Saving Throw, and thus will be more likely to succeed if the character can guess their target's low Ability Score.
Sneak Attack requires a specific trigger. It's easy to trigger, but it's still another hoop to jump through.
Finesse Weapon Damage*2 + maximum Dexterity damage + Maximum Sneak Attack deals an average of 47 damage per round. That's a lot less then what many spells can deal
(Greatsword+maximum Str damage)*4 = average of 48 damage. So by default, a Fighter of comparable level deals 1 point of damage, and he has class abilities which add to his to-hit and damage. (Whereas the Rogue has class abilities that add to his Skills, movement, and defenses).
So on balance, I'd say that Sneak Attack is useful, but it is not more useful then what a Fighter can do, and it's a lot less useful then what magic users can do if they have spells available.
Person_Man wrote:
Sneak attack isn't once per round. It's once per turn. Thief's reflexes gives 2 turns and thus 2 sneak attacks possible first round of every combat for a strong first round and an opportunity attack would also allow sneak attack on someone else's turn, or a bonus attack given to the rogue on another turn. I think they needed the boost during the playtest just to catch up. Evokers and fighters have pretty strong damage ability and the higher sneak attack was what they needed. In the playtest it was a mechanically inferior choice to play a rogue instead of a bard who could also cover skills but had far more damage added with call to battle plus added healing and other magic. I think rogues are much better now while still being interesting but not overpowered.
1eejit wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
Any thoughts, predictions, hopes for what Rogue Archetypes will be in the PHB?
I'm hoping they keep the Assassin but make it a little more insteresting (since the Thief from the Basic PDF is so cool), a Jack-of-All-Trades that gets more proficiencies, and maybe a Thug of some kind. I don't know how many they're going to have for each class, but one of the things I liked from 4e (I didn't play previous editions) was that I felt like I could make a character that felt very different from another character of the same class, with lots of different options. These differences were mostly int he At-Will, Encounter, and Daily Power selections, but I do hope we retain the ability to be mechanically unique.
I think feats will be helpful for this. I can't wait to see what they have in the PHB.
Thief, assassin, acrobat, investigator/trapsmith, arcane trickster, swashbuckler, although it's unclear how much these would come from subclass and how much from background and feats. It's all a bit wibbly wobbly timey wimey. Although multiple ways to get to the same archetype would be cool.
Player's Handbook!
Arcane Trickster archetype is exactly what I was looking for. I'm really happy they covered that type. I was gonna have to multi-class Wizard or something.
Sands666 wrote:
FFSAA wrote:
unky wrote:
I'm having this issue building my first rogue where I want to do a bunch of cool things with him that are really interesting and fun ways of getting Sneak Attack for every attack, but I'm realizing that it's all a bit redundant when I'm in a party with other players who are almost always next to enemies in combat granting me Sneak Attack anyway. Is it silly for me to, for example, mulitclass into Warlock so that I can get cool Pact of the Chain features dealing with my Familiar and also gain the Devil's Sight invocation so I can see through my own Darkness spells so I essentially blind my enemies? Or should I just go with it anyway because it's awesome regardless of how good or bad it may end up being in combat?
Darkness is pretty unfriendly to your fellow party members, especially if you have multiple mixing it up in melee with you. For instance, your friendly neighborhood wolf totem barbarian is going to be pretty upset that you negated everyone's advantage. Yunru has a guide in the player's help section that helps somewhat for ranged attackers with generous DM's, but it's not really a good option unless the whole group takes that level or two of warlock with you.
If you want warlock for flavor, use that darkness for battlefield control or during exploration/scouting time.
Breath easy. Just have fun and play the character. Enjoy SA rolls 95% of the time. Don't fuss over the few times you may not get SA. SA competes with cunning action so my advice is to not bother with MC. 14th level grants Blindsense, also.
I'm currently playing a Half-Orc Fighter, level 2. I plan to take the Champion path.
I'm also planning to multiclass with the Rogue.
I will go to 5th level in Fighter so I can get my 2nd attack with my Champion, then dip into Rogue until I get Uncanny Dodge. It would be like a Barb with Rage, only this will be permanent 1/2 damage. (No Rage Required)
I'll take the Assassin path, so I auto crit those who I surprise.
I'm using GWF with a GreatSword.... I plan to also grab up some Rapiers or Scimitars for sneak attack damage. Most likely I'll take TWF as my second fighting style.
I also like the fact that I'll have advantage against anyone who has not taken an action yet in combat. Double the chance for a crit.
The plan is to get as many crits as possible, so I'll need to drop my Chain Mail for a Breast Plate and pump my Dex.
I do have a question though, if I take Rogue, one of their skills is Stealth.... will I also get this skill if I multiclass?
I plan on taking the Sentinal and Alert Feats for sure... I may throw Mage Slayer in there so I can take them out quickly.
I'm currently roleplaying a dwarf rogue, Telchar Spellbeard, with high str and int (dex is fair, not great) who comes from a well-respected family of dwarven wizards and dropped out of wizarding school to become a paralegal, and avoids his family name as often as possible even though it would make his life considerably easier. It's an interesting campaign. Oh and he has a real thing for buttons, and button based technology (like clothing buttons).