Until we see the warlock's final form, and the final spell list, we cannot be sure that it isn't both a simple caster and able to fill the divine/support caster role.
As for the idea of a simple divine/support caster... I actually think that the cleric, with appropriate domain (probably Light rather than Life) will prove to be a very straightforward divine/support caster option since the cleric class is already one of the less complex casters on account of having access to the full spell list rather than a limited selection (less complex by way of being more forgiving - preparing the wrong spell is correctable tomorrow, while knowing the wrong spell is much harder to correct), and by not having as many class features that focus on replenishing spell slots or augmenting the effects of a spell when cast.
There will be no simple caster in 5e. The most simple spellcaster in 5e is the Evoker Wizard.
I think the option for a simple spellcaster exists, but it's not a build option. It's the fact that one can contribute to the group by relying heavily on cantrips, and saving slotted spells for obvious moments to use them.
I'd say Sorc (particularly Dragon) is simpler than wizard.
Lawolf wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
What is " a simple spellcaster"? It's hard to say if anything qualifies without knowing the qualifications. If it's about the spell slots and tables then Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster are the simplest spellcasters by fiat of having the smallest selection of spells. What constitutes simple to you? The spell selection, how spells become available, mechanics around spell use per game day?
I would wait a few days and see what the PHB has in it. There are several things that have been teased that might be what you are looking for but until the actuall release we might as well talk about a wizard that does nothing but empower his/her shoes to be thrown at enemies for all we really know.
I'm an designing a simple caster class.
It works like the 4e wizard.
2 at wills (a magic arrow and a magic shield)
1 Short rest (high damage Blast)
1 long rest (Big Laser Beam)
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
The simplest caster is the High Elf in a non-caster class.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I think it might possible to rework and reflavour the Fighter into a Pew!Pew! Wizard. It could rely on casting a variety of cantrips, casting more of them per round at higher levels and getting some bigger "BOOM" spells per short and long rest. Or something along those lines. I'd have to put more thought into it.
So te warlock is objectively complex.
It it has cantrips, special warlock spell slots, it has invocations, and it has a few regular spell slots.
Its cantrips function exactly like other classes cantrips, but some invocations modifiy the eldritch blast cantrip.
Invocations function like at-will spells or like passive abilities.
The warlocks arcanum function like spell slots for spells of level 6-9. The warlock gets one use of each per day.
The he warlocks spell slots actually function very similarly to the wizards spells. The main difference being that a warlock can cast any spell they know from their spell slots. At level 20, these spell slots recover with a short rest.
The warlock's subclasses all give a few per day and per rest abilities as well.
So the warlock has far more to keep track of than the wizard. The wizard has one resource to keep track of, spell slots. The warlock has to keep track of spell slots, arcanum, invocations, and subclass abilities that all recharge at different rates or cause different effects. Havig multiple resources to keep track of and different types of spell slots makes the warlock more complicated than the Evoker, objectively.
Ashrym wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I'm with Aaron on the interpretation of the Wizard: their spell slots are more complex than the Warlock's spell slots. Also, the ability to prepare your spells from a potentially limitless group of spells (like the Wizard and Cleric do) is more complex than the Warlock's (and Sorcerer's) spell's known.
The simple caster I'd build would have a single resource, spell slots like the Warlock's, cantrips, and a host of "always on" modifiers. It would end up very similar to the Warlock, so similar that I'd very much consider making it an alternate Warlock build. But even simpler would be something like a reflavored Champion or Battle Master Fighter.
Xeviat-DM wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
I'm sure it irks some people but to be honest I'm guessing they just don't see a lot of demand for a super simple caster whereas they do for a super simple fighter. That doesn't mean a super simple caster won't ever appear but it's not a priority since not many seem to want it.
I agree with lawolf though that the warlock is not likely to be the simple choice. It may be sorcerer or evoker wizard as some have said.
AaronOfBarbaria wrote:
I think we will have to look at the warlock's invocations. If some of them are similar to "always add 5 points hellfire damage to your eldritch blast", then you could build a simple blaster using the warlock, just pick utility spells--combat would be straight forward and you would have read language or breath water available for out of combat action.
So here is a generic rundown of the warlock.
You start off knowing some spells. These function very similarly to any other spellcasters spell slots. The biggest difference is that every spell you know is always "prepared" and your spell slots are always at the highest level slot available to you. Edit: And these do recover with a short rest.
You choose a patron at level 1, and each gives you some minor benefit. One triggers when you drop an enemy to 0 HP, another is usable once per short rest, and the last is a passive always on ability. As you level up, the patron gives you more increasingly complex abilities (some reaction triggers, some short rest recharge abilities, some long rest recharge abilities, and others with very specific triggers).
At level 3 you get a pact boon. One gives you a familiar that can replace one of your attacks when you take the attack action. The other gives you some cantrips from any class. A third allows you to summon a a magical weapon.
At 11th level you get additional spell slots that are totally different from your other spell slots. These spell slots are used to cast spells of levels 6 through 9. These spells don't use up your other spell slots though, and are completely daily based.
Invocations are fairly easy, but again are another thing to keep track of. Most are passive bonuses or provide an at-will casting of a spell. A few modify your eldritch blast. Most invocations are simply at-will spells with a different name.
So you have at will spells, short rest spells, and daily spells. At level 20, you will have something like 20 regular spells known, 4 cantrips known, 8 invocations known, and 4 mystical arcanum known. Oh yeah, you will also have a few abilities granted from your patron that are usable on various rest schedules.
CCS wrote:
Here is the rough draft of my mage class.
Mage class
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d6 per mage level
Hit Points at level 1: 6 + Constitution modifier
Hit Points at higher levels: 1d6 (or 4) + Constitution modifier per mage level after the first.
Proficiencies
Armor: Light armor and shields
Weapons: Simple weapons
Tools: None
Saving throws: Intelligence and Dexterity
Skills: Choose two from Acrobatics, Arcana, Athletics, Insight, and Medicine
Equipment
You start with the following equipment in addition to the equipment granted in your background.
A spear or a shortsword
A light crossbow and a quiver of 20 bolts, a shield, or a shortsword.
A dungeoneer's pack, scholar's pack, or an explorer's pack
Leather armor and an arcane focus
1. Arcane Ray, Arcane Enhancement (Armor),
2. Arcane Bomb
3. Arcane Archetype
4. Ability Score Improvement
5. Extra Ray
6. Ability Score Improvement
7. Arcane Archetype
8. Ability Score Improvement
9. Arcane Barrier (reduce damage by 1d12+level once per rest)
10. Arcane Archetype
11. Extra Ray (2 Rays)
12. Ability Score Improvement
13. Arcane Barrier (two times)
14. Ability Score Improvement
15. Arcane Archetype
16. Ability Score Improvement
17. Arcane Bomb (two times) Arcane Barrier (three times)
18. Arcane Archetype
19. Ability Score Improvement
20. Extra Ray (three rays)
ARCANE RAY
As an initiate of this special form of magic, you know how to fire a ray of magical energy from your fingertips to damage enemies. This ray of energy can look like a streak of blue light, a glowing energy arrow, or even a beam of pulsing mist.
Firing the arcane ray is an action and counts as a ranged attack. The Ray has a normal range of 100 feet and a long range of 500 feet. Your attack bonus for your arcane ray is equal to your Intelligence modifier + your proficiency bonus. Your arcane ray deals 1d12 force damage. You must have at least one hand free to fire your energy ray unless you are using an arcane focus.
(NOTE: Arcane Ray and Contests.
Arcane Ray acts very much like a ranged weapon attack for the purpose of contest. Arcane Ray works much like an fired arrow or sling bullet except that there is no physical matter. Consult your DM on how or if you can use Arcane Ray to shove or disarm.)
ARCANE ENHANCEMENT
You can channel your magical gift into an physical enhancement. As an action, you can place an enhancement.
At the first level you know the Arcane Armor enhancement.
Arcane Armor: Your AC is equal to 10 + your Intelligence Modifier + your Charisma Modifier
ARCANE BLAST
At the 2nd level, you learned to channel your arcane enery into an explosive ball of raw arcane force. As an action, you can create and toss an arcane bomb. You can throw the bomb up to 50 feet.
When the bomb hits an object or a hard surface, the bomb explodes. All creatures within 10 feet sphere of the exploding bomb must make a Dexterity saving throw.. All creatures in the blast area takes 1d6 force damage per mage level on a failed save and half damage on a successful one.
SUBCLASS Blaster
Improved Critical (Blast crits on 19 or 20)
Amazing Mind (add 1/2 proficiency to all Int, Wis, and Cha checks, learn a language)
Arcane Melee (Melee weapon attacks deal 3d6 force damage,)
Superior Critical (Blast crits on 18, 19, or 20)
Destroyer (Blasts deal Int bonus damage)
What if the psion was a simple caster?
Having not been made yet, there's an opportunity for the psion, or one of its subclasses, to fulfil the role of 'simple caster' alluded to in this thread.
Emerikol. wrote:
Foxface wrote:
Nope, I want simpler, not just different. The wizard and sorcerer are different from each other.
What I really wanted as a "simple caster" was something like the early playtest sorcerer. Limited spells known from a fairly limited list, spell points rather than slots, and some cool non-spell abilities to mix things up.
I also really like the PHB warlock. It is certainly not easy for new players to figure out - in fact, it looks like the only PHB class that you'll be able to make significantly underpowered, for example by playing a blade pact warlock but failing to take the invocations that actually let you keep up in melee damage. But the spell system is less convoluted than wizards - no spell preparation, no different slots to keep track of - and almost everything else is at-will. (Yes, you have a few high-level spells that are daily. Not my ideal, but I get the design constraints there.)
So in other words, as a guy who always enjoyed character building but never liked bookkeeping in combat, the warlock is complex where I like complexity and simple where I like simplicity. I agree, though, that there should have been a PHB class that was both kinds of simple, like the Champion fighter is, for new players and for players who don't want to wade through an 80-page spell chapter every time they level up. Orzel's sample class is one way of doing it. The 3.5e warlock was another, if I recall it correctly. Mix in simple blasty powers and a few cool at-will "utility" effects, like the 5e warlock's telepathy and levitation, and you have a cool character that's easy to run.
CCS wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Does anyone here actually want to sit down and play as a "simple caster?" And I don't mean in a "well, someone might!" or "it'd be good for me as a GM!" I mean, would you personally sit down and actually play a caster without spell selections available as a PC? That could only shoot blasts of energy at will?
Is this really something that is actively desireable enough to justify it as its own entity?
And how is this different from just having pre-selected spells that you never vary from?
Mephi1234 wrote:
Something like the 3e warlock would be awesome!!!!
I have two players at my table who would be interested in a simple caster. One didn't like casters in 3rd Edition, but liked them in 4th. The other is just starting to learn the game and found spellcasters to be too complicated. So, yes.
Grazel wrote:
Elementalist
Hit Points
Hit Dice: 1d8 per Elementalist level
Hit Points at 1st Level: 8 + your Constitution modifer
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d8 (or 5) + your Constitution modifer per Elementalist level after 1st
Proficiencies:
Armor:None
Weapons: Daggers, darts, slings, quarterstaffs, light crossbows
Tools: None
Saving Throws: Charisma, Intelligence
Skills: Choose two from Arcana, History, Insight, Investigation, Medicine, and Religion
The Elementalist
1st +2 Arcane Ray, Arcane Touch, Elemental Armor
2nd +2 Action Surge (one use)
3rd +2 Elemental Archetype
4th +2 Ability Score Improvement
5th +3 Extra Attack
6th +3 Ability Score Improvement
7th +3 Elemental Archetype Feature
8th +3 Ability Score Improvement
9th +4 Advantage on all saves versus chosen element
10th +4 Elemental Archetype Feature
11th +4 Extra Attack (2)
12th +4 Ability Score Improvement
13th +5 Immunity against chosen element
14th +5 Ability Score Improvement
15th +5 Elemental Archetype Feature
16th +5 Ability Score Improvement
17th +6 Action Surge (two uses), advantage on all saves versus
18th +6 Elemental Archetype Feature
19th +6 Ability Score Improvement
20th +6 Extra Attack (3)
Choose element: Fire, Ice, Necrotic, Lightning, Acid
Arcane Ray - You may at will cast a 1d10 ranged attack that does element damage. You must roll a to hit roll. There is no save.
Arcane Touch - You may at will deliver a 1d10 touch attack that does element damage.
Arcane Armor - You conjure elemental armor via a ritual that is equivalent to medium. Anyone attacking you takes your charisma bonus in damage of element type upon a successful hit. The armor lasts until you dismiss it. The armor can be restored with a 10 minute ritual at no cost.
Action Surge - Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and a possible bonus action. Once you use this feature, you must finish a short or long rest before you can use it again. Starting at 17th level, you can use it twice before a rest, but only once on the same turn.
Elemental Archetypes -
At 3rd Level, Improved Critical (crit on a 19 or 20)
At 7th level, Second Element (choose a second element that you can use at will)
At 15th level, Superior Critical (crit on 18, 19, or 20)
At 18th level, Elemental Rebirth (any time you would take damage from a particular spell of type element you are healed instead)
Sturmunddrang wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Alternatively, call your wizard a hedge wizard and only allow the hedge wizard to know one spell of each spell level. Then the player only has to choose ten spells, ever. At each odd level, the player peruses the spell list of the new spell level and chooses the one he likes the most (or determines randomly).
To make it even simpler, the DM can limit the list of spells to be chosen from (if the player really wants fewer options to choose from).
I have always wondered if the need to design simple fighters with passive abilities and complex magic users with active abilities throughout D&D history is because the designers were all bullied in school and this their wieird form of revenge by making a passive agressive statement through their design that characters and by proxy the players who depend upon physical violence are talentless meatheads? Not really being serious here but it would sure explain a lot. 
After reading many of the Dresden books, I have become attracted to the magic user who can only do one or two spells but at a higher level than a full wizard.
It really fits that feel of the best fireball slinger. That Diablo sorcerer. The X-men style PC who is a warrior with that one trick they can do very well.
Johnni the fire blaster or General Gudd's Skeleton army or the "see everything" Seer Pytal..
GhostStepper wrote:
Orzel wrote:
Mephi1234 wrote:
Grazel wrote:
Lady_Auralla wrote:
Orzel wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Emerikol. wrote:
I don't care about a simple versus complex class since each player will have a preference, but I am concerned about designing a simple class versus a complex since the playing field is uneven going forward. If you design all the core classes as all simple or all complex, then it is easier to spruce them up or dumb them down. It is what I call controlling complexity at the table. However, if you start off some as complex and some as simple, it is much harder to making the simple ones more complex, because the simple version can not be overshadowed. That is what the fighter will suffer from, even if more complex versions are offered. While a more simple warlock can be as potent as a complex wizard, because the bar is set at the high watermark.
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Orzel wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
Ashrym wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Lawolf wrote:
[quote="Emerikol."]
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Why did this become a thread about fighters? Just because it's a pet peeve of yours, Tony?
Anyway, on with the simple casters. I do not think the suggested "pick a versatile class and limit yourself" solution is a very good one. Those classes are (supposedly) balanced with their versatility in mind, so such a solution would (should..?) not produce very balanced results. I think the class should inherently be less versatile, but better at whatever specialty it might have, be it damage, toughness, summoning, healing, buffing, social interaction, legerdemain, exploration, or whatever. The key is limited options at creation/advancement and in play, but also still being on par with the versatile classes.
The reflavoring of the fighter could work very well for some people, I suppose. I wouldn't play it, but that's not a very good point against it.. Similarly, several abilities could be poached and reflavored, like uncanny dodge - could easily be a permanent magical shield.
I think a simple caster should have more at-will options, in general, as that eliminates the speculation on whether it's "worth" using this ability now. Or per short rest, as this at least limits that speculation.
@Grazel Since you don't think casters should be simple, maybe you're not the one who should be contributing ideas to what a simple caster should be. Just saying.
Lokiron wrote:
A class based on "creative use of magic on the fly" would not be simple for the DM or the player.
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Lokiron wrote:
Tony_Vargas wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote: