| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1Angel7Oct 03, 2014 11:24:36 | I've been attempting to make a list of the classic undead from weakest to strongest, but was unsure of which criteria to include. Would it simply be the monsters CR ? or should the monsters HP and Wisdom score (difficulty to turn) be deciding factors as well? Is a monster's spell-like abilities factored into a CR level?
In the earliest editions, undead were graded by their resistance to being turned which gave us: skeleton, zombie, ghoul, wight, wraith, mummy, spectre, vampire.
For 5e, rating the classics by CR gives us: Skeleton HP 13 Wis 8 CR 1/4 Zombie HP 22 Wis 6 CR 1/4 Shadow HP 16 Wis 10 CR 1/2 Spectre HP 22 Wis 10 CR 1 Ghoul HP 36 Wis 10 CR 2 Wight HP 45 Wis 13 CR 3 Mummy HP 58 Wis 10 CR 3 Ghost HP 45 Wis 12 CR 4 Wraith HP 67 Wis 14 CR 5 Vampire HP 144 Wis 15 CR 13 Lich HP 135 Wis 14 CR 21
What I take from this is: An undead's CR is based mostly on their HP, then strong consideration given to those that have the incorporeal trait, then the undead's Wisdom score (turnability), with AC as the least consideration when deciding on their CR. I also see that spectres and mummies have been nerfed the most over the course of editions (for the mummy it's probably to show a stronger variation between the mummy and the mummy lord) and there is a massive power disparity between all of the undead and the vampires and liches (this may be due to the fact that lesser undead are commonly found in groups, rather than solo adversaries) or to make vampires and liches more "legendary".
I'd like to hear if you all agree with my assessment or if there are other factors (eg: spells, spell-like abilities, etc) that play a role in deciding an undead's CR or power level.
|
| #2DemoMonkeyOct 03, 2014 11:31:16 | You missed Dracolich and Ghost Beholder. Or was that intentional? |
| #3Angel7Oct 03, 2014 15:50:20 | It was intentional, although the dracolich and ghost beholder are iconic in their own right and player favorites for sure. |
| #4IllithidbixOct 03, 2014 15:52:59 | And the Death Knight: HP: 180, Wis: 16, CR: 17 And the Demilich: HP: 80, WIS 17, CR 18
But I concur, they're not in the traditional Turn Undead hirearchy.
Spellcasting and resistances make a big difference in CR, (fun fact; Vampires are one of the few undead that can be affected by poison damage, poisoned condition and aren't immune to exhaustion!) but there is another factor: Legendary Actions. Curiously, whilst the Vampire, Demilitch and Lich all have legandary actions; the Death Knight doesn't.
Perhaps because the prior 3 are expected to sometimes be SOLO MONSTERS! whilst the Death Knight is always expected to have minions?
|
| #5ZardnaarOct 04, 2014 3:04:16 |
|
| #6Brock_LandersOct 04, 2014 4:04:32 | There seems to be no rhyme or reason, aside from poison/poisoned. |
| #7arnwolf666Oct 04, 2014 7:06:31 | Its what the playtesting data says the CR should be. It must be right. |
| #8franfronOct 04, 2014 8:44:48 | You have to consider that some monsters have saving throws higher than their ability scores. For example a mummy has a +2 wisdom saving throw and the vampire a +7. Usually, the higher CR the higher saving throws. |
| (Reply to #4)demon_idol |
|
| #10Angel7Oct 05, 2014 18:59:50 | Thanks for pointing out spellcasting, resistances, and saving throws as factors in determining CR. There's much more to consider than I first assumed. (ie: hp, incorporealness, turnability)
|
| #11Monsieur_MoustacheOct 06, 2014 4:15:41 | Zombies are the strongest.
1. Dead flesh smells bad. 2. You vomit. 3. Zombie hits you with advantage 4. Vomit = difficult terrain. 5. Zombie + vomit smells very bad 6. You curse what remains of your destiny for having put a zombie on your way instead of a tarrasque or some sparkling vampires. 7. You accept that it will soon be your turn to smell bad.
Advised adventurers choose the season before to fight zombies. Fighting them during summer is definitely a bad idea. You don't want to fight hot piles of rotting dead flesh. |