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| #1EinlanzerDec 15, 2014 18:57:29 | I like the addition of Honor and Sanity as optional attributes in the DMG, and have always been slightly dissatisfied with the core attribute system in D&D for a handful of reasons, such as as the thematic wonkiness of Wisdom in particular and the fact that they aren't very well balanced with each other in terms of general usefulness.
So, in light of that, I am presenting a few additional changes in my test campaign to go along with the addition of Honor and Sanity:
1.) A third new attribute called Magick (or perhaps Thamaturgy or Theurgy). This attribute replaces the class-specific attributes (int, wis, cha) for all "spellcasting ability" references. Mostly this applies to save DCs and spell attack rolls for all classes as well as certain saves where appropriate. I find this makes more conceptual sense than having spells powered by various other attributes. Classes will still use their existing "magic" stat (int/cha/wis) for spell preparation so, for instance, Int will still be more valuable for Wizards than other attributes except for Magick.
2.) Int, Wis, and Cha all receive some minor independent buffs to compensate, and of course other class features will still use them. The goal is to have 3 equivalent "primary" stats - Str, Dex, and Mag, and 6 equivalent "secondary" stats - Con, Int, Wis, Cha, San, and Hon. Classes will still tend to favor the stats they already do, but the goal is to make them all generally usefulness enough to make the choices tougher and more character-defining. I will grant an additional point for ability score increases, but +2 will still be the maximum for one attribute.
3.) Medicine is moved from Wis to Int. Int will also receive a new "Tactics" mechanic which any character can use to bolster rolls at given times. The exact mechanics haven't been determined yet, but I'm thinking something along the lines of granting a tactic bonus die that can be used a number of times per day equal to your Int mod.
4.) All will-type rolls/saves will be moved to Charisma because they make way more sense there. Charisma will also become the "divine favor" theme stat in place of Wisdom. Clerics will use Charisma instead of Wisdom for spell preparation. Wisdom is for Druids and Rangers.
5.) Initiative is moved from Dex to Wisdom because it makes more sense with the solidified "Awareness" theme of the stat. Most likely I will actually rename it to Awareness. Perception remains the most useful skill so I think this keeps it in line with the others.
That's it, let me know if you have any thoughts! I'm convinced it's pretty close to perfect. |
| #2cowleymenDec 15, 2014 19:17:17 | I dont think adding two more will make it any better straight away. How ever i also dont have the DMG so im not sure what honor and sanity do besides the expiclit roleplay value that are in their names. I would say that Honor could easily become the stat needed for Paladins, as it works perfectly.
Most of the problem I have the the attributes as they are comes form Wisdom, which as some wonky applications back and forth. A lot of Wisdom skills I really feel Fit so much better as an Intellegince skill. I know that it has been mentioned all over the fourms, but I hate that Dex is the heaviest Attribute when it comes to Min/Maxing. Even for Magic classes, Dex is still something you want to get as high as you can once your done with feats and your spell casting slot. I really wish Charisma could stop meaning your over all looks as well. Charisma is about your personality. Though being good looking could accomplish that, but it doesnt mean you have to be pretty as well.
That turned into a bit of a ramble |
| #3rampantDec 15, 2014 19:33:50 | Traditionally dexterity is overpowered, itneeds to be broken up into an agility and reflex score, con and strength coul dbe bundled into a vigor score, and charisma and wisdom need to be blended and re-separated into perception and will power. |
| #4EinlanzerDec 15, 2014 19:55:47 |
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| #5rampantDec 15, 2014 20:06:46 | I admit vigor is a bit broad, but simply put strength just isn't versatile enough on it's own and constitution is pretty passive without it. As for wis-cha vs. per-wil, simply put it's a more accurate set of names for what they end up being used for. It helps that I don't have a pre-set 'social stat' the way DnD uses charisma for almost any active social skills allows for greater party participation in social encounters instead of making the bard or rogue carry most of those, while allowing me to drop people skills from attirbutes and put them into well, skills. |
| #6EinlanzerDec 15, 2014 20:20:26 | Here's a breakdown with my changes -
Athletics skill attack/damage rolls (standard melee and heavy thrown) Lifting and carrying Injury-based fortitude checks
Dexterity Acrobatics skill Stealth skill attack/damage rolls (light melee and standard ranged) AC when not wearing heavy armor nimble movements reflex checks
Magick/Theurgy Attack/Damge rolls (all spells) novelty checks related to spell casting will work on expanding
Constitution HP per level HP on Rest maintaining concentration resistance and survival checks prepared spells for Sorcerers
Intelligence Arcana skill History skill Investigation skill Medicine skill Nature skill Religion skill Tactics Dice solving puzzles and recalling information prepared spells for Wizards
Awareness Animal Handling skill Insight skill Perception skill Survival skill Initiative foraging and exploration deception checks prepared spells for Druids and Rangers
Charisma Deception skill Intimidation skill Performance skill Persuasion skill Inspiration willpower and leadership checks prepared spells for Warlocks, Clerics, and Paladins
Honor As DMG
As DMG
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| #7KazadvornDec 16, 2014 8:20:19 | I'd second splitting Dexterity into two attributes. One would cover small motor skills and could still be called Dexterity. It would influence things like accuracy with ranged weapons and fine motor skills like lock-picking. The other 'Dex' attribute could be called 'Agility' and might be the prime attribute covering 'athletics and acrobatics' as well as aspects of melee combat - in particular unarmoured defense and 'finesse' type attacks.
Here's where 'tradition' and 'cannon' get in the way of really improving the game. You could take a step back from 'historically correct' list of attributes and create a new list that really reflects aspects of a character's abilities that effect game play...
Certainly 'Strength' might come into play.
But things like Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence need to be refined and perhaps re-defined. |
| #8LawolfDec 16, 2014 8:55:08 | I think there are too many attributes. I would prefer fewer, not more.
Strength, Agility, Intellect, Spirit
Strength determines physical might and endurance.
Agility determines coordination and reflexes.
Intellect covers intelligence and perceptiveness.
Spirit covers force of personality and inner strength. |
| #9bawylieDec 16, 2014 9:15:25 | Prowess Fortitude Interaction Will Exploration Reflex
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| #10LuisCarlos17fDec 16, 2014 9:17:03 | My housebreed rule is to add these abilities scores: Astuteness, Courage, Karma and Technique.
Astuteness would be used by evil clercis instead of Wis. It is the ability to improvise, to be creative or to influence over another persons.
Courage may be used for horror settings, like the morality saves from AD&D, also for mental stress by violence.
Karma is like luck or fate. Karma check save could be for powers with aligment key.
Technique is like Dex, but for slow or prelearnt actios, like crafting, playing music, dance or keys or martial arts.
To avoid abuses by Munchkins these abilites are in a different group for distribuite the points for abilities scores, but one of each group can be swamped, for example the karma would be the main ability score for the class "favored soul", and the karma is replace with the Cha.
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| #11cowleymenDec 16, 2014 10:34:32 | If I where to create new attributes all together, I would just write a new d10 system (cause d10 math is usally pretty easy.)
Physique= your physical condition. This impacts HP, melee and heavy thrown, and both strength and con saves
Grace= dex, how ever, AC would not be tied to this in anything but light armor. Even with medium armor on, I feel that for the most part your reyling on the armor not your speed.
Knowledge= book smarts and education. A mostly skill related stat, Used by spell classes that learn there spells; including old school mages, rangers(KNOWLEDGE of the wild), ect. and maybe by warlord/battlemaster type features of studied combat.
Spirit= Spell stat for classes that channel their magic, so clerics, paladins, sorcerers(inner channeling), and any instintive magic class
To be honest, I might go with something similar to the Iron Kingdoms system, picking a general archtype like magical,marital, or skilled, then having a modular list of things you could choose, with the restriction that one of your chooses has to sit with your archtype. So a magical archtype shouldnt be choosing two martial, or martial and a skilled.
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| (Reply to #11)Lawolf |
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| #13cowleymenDec 16, 2014 11:33:33 |
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| #14autolycusDec 16, 2014 12:10:24 | If going with fewer stats, this is all you need.
Body Mind Spirit |
| #15cowleymenDec 16, 2014 13:32:49 | Not quite so much about fewer, but for the Most part, charisma is just how well you interact with people for the most part. Wisdom is your overall awreness and a weird hodgepodge of other stuff. I just felt those wherent needed. And Con does next to nothing but your HP. Besides Intellagince saves, the only thing you need Int for is for skill or wizard class. Im just trying to avoid creating a super attribute that Dex is right now |
| #16MechaPilotDec 16, 2014 13:45:57 |
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| #17ChrisCarlsonDec 16, 2014 14:22:07 |
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