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| #1akaddkJul 10, 2014 2:22:25 | The more I think about how saving throws work, the less I like it. The idea that your non-proficient saves don't increase is just... awkward and weird and seems like it will be very problematic as the disparity between a proficient and non-proficient save grows across the levels. It also seems very clunky.
I'd like to understand the reasoning behind this decision though before going off half-cocked about it. Is there something I'm missing about this? Will the balance really be that out of whack or am I worrying about nothing for no reason?
I'm also curious as to why they chose a base DC of 8. Does that play in to why non-proficient saves get no bonus?
I read a suggested change that I thought sounded like a good idea but until I'm sure that the basic system is a bad idea, I'll hold off on using it. The idea proposed was that you get your proficiency bonus to all saves and you get double the bonus to the ones you're proficient in.
So, thoughts on the save system? |
| #2aleatoricJul 10, 2014 2:44:44 | The gap between high and low saving throws in 3e at level 1 is +2 and at level 20 it is +6. The gap between proficient and non-proficient saving throws in 5e at level 1 is +2 and at level 20 it is +6. The primary difference between the two is that the bonuses and DCs are scaled way back in 5e which gives the non-proficient a much better chance at success than was possible in 3e. |
| #3PolarisJul 10, 2014 3:05:33 |
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| #4akaddkJul 10, 2014 3:14:51 |
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| #5PolarisJul 10, 2014 3:20:50 |
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| #6akaddkJul 10, 2014 3:25:48 |
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| #7aleatoricJul 10, 2014 4:17:59 |
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| #8AcrilosJul 10, 2014 4:38:15 | Saving throws are indeed a problem is you don't have proficieny and/or have a low ability score and with our current knowledge of the rules and the game. With a stat of 10 in wisdom and no proficiency, you have a wisdom saving throw modifier of...well.... +0 ! Against a DC 19 imposed by a 17th level caster with a 20 in high stat (that is considering the said caster has no magical item that boosts his casting ability score), the poor guy would have to roll a 19+ to resist the spell that requires a Wisdom saving throw...such a guy would be paralyzed by a hold person or worse for an entire battle unless his allies use spells and other means to dispel the effect !
Of course, we can imagine that there will be magical items, potions, spells, and other things that will boost saving throws (such as a potion that gives you proficiency in a specific saving throw for 1 minute for example) to make the life of such characters easier. Let's say that ability scores distribution is quite important in DD5. But not all saving throws are useful at the moment so some characters will have a considerably greater chance to succeed in shrugging off effects than others (as explained with numbers in above posts).
That is where we realize that spell that afford protection against specific effects will be really important in DD5. |
| #9frothsofJul 10, 2014 5:57:22 | I disagree w the op. I love how saves work. I dont think PCs should just automatically get more dextrous for example as they age. If you choose ability score increases, you are rewarded for them. Automatically increasing all saves for everyone results in an easy game with less chance involved. PCs should have strengths and weaknesses imo. It also makes magic items such as Rings of Protection (assuming they affect saves like the old days) that much more desirable. |
| #10GnarlJul 10, 2014 6:03:34 | I'll wait and see how this works before judging. I kind of share Polaris' "end of the world" analysis but if the only high DC special abilities the monsters have are minor debuffs and damage, it shouldn't be a problem in actual game play. I'm not too worried about melee attacks targetting a wizard's weak saves either. |
| #11Joe_the_RatJul 10, 2014 6:24:05 | That's actually an apt comparison, Gnarl. The DCs outstrip saves by the same rates that attack bonuses grow against AC. This might be the design concept here. Armor is sort of having proficiency in not getting hit, save that the bonuses scale more by wealth than by level.
The problem comes in that unlike physical combat, failing a save doesn't always mean damage. Depending on what you are hit with, this can mean no longer participating in the fight, regardless of the number of hit points you have. |
| #12KarnosJul 10, 2014 7:16:52 | At first it felt a little awkward, but the more I think about it the more I like it. In past editions, with all saves increasing, you eventually get to a point where saving throws are kind of meaningless, you only fail in extremely rare situations.
Or, you have scaling difficulty saves, where you level up and your save bonus gets better but the DC you save against increases the exact same, just creating a useless treadmill that only gives the illusion of progress.
With the limited save progression of 5th edition, I think nasty effects that require saves will still be scary even at higher levels, while real progress and improvement will be seen on a select few saves for each class. |
| #13Goken100Jul 10, 2014 7:23:04 | The thing is, AC doesn't really increase either in 5E (aside from getting more expensive armor, which is achievable within the first few levels). Magic items could theoretically boost saves just like they could boost AC, so let's put those aside.
In 5E, heroes get better at dealing with danger through increased hit points. They get better at abosrbing the danger, not avoiding it. This works great as long as there are not a plethera of annoying, debilitating, and deadly dangers that only activate on hit and/or failed save. Because our heroes are going to get hit a lot.
Mechanics that only work on targets below a certain HP level, for example, work great with this. Thus high-level HP makes you more resistant to those effects. So hopefully we'll discover that most truely dangerous effects need some kind of HP barrier and adjustments will be made accordingly. |
| #14ChrisTheSJul 10, 2014 7:23:56 | If it's a problem (haven't seen it in action yet so I couldn't say), you could always have nonproficient saves use half the proficiency bonus, which would soften the gap a bit (rather than exaggerating it by using double for the proficient ones). |
| #15docdoom77Jul 10, 2014 7:26:04 | I think it's fine and definitely intended. I guess you better watch where you put that dump stat! I have no problem with a clumsy guy who isn't proficient in Dex saves failing most the time. Makes sense to me.
Of course if it really bothers you, the easy answer is to give half proficiency to all non-proficient saves. Voila. Simple solution. |
| #16souldoubtJul 10, 2014 7:45:48 |
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| #17LawolfJul 10, 2014 8:13:52 | From all the play we had in the playtest...I hate it. They are overly complex and too many saves are not even used at all. I would have simply preferred for the saving throw system to be combined with the skill system or better yet, turn saves into defenses. A unified task resolution system would have been really nice to teach new players the game. |
| #18docdoom77Jul 10, 2014 8:16:44 |
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| #19CennediJul 10, 2014 8:19:52 |
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| #20RastapopoulosJul 10, 2014 8:55:54 |
The way I see it, it was a design decision, not a math error. I think in 5e they intend you to fail a lot of saves you're not good at. The idea being: if you're bad at a certain check, try to avoid having to make that check at all, instead of trusting the dice.
Example: If a ghoul has a paralyzing touch, think your way through this battle and try not to be touched by the ghoul at all. If he touches you, you still have a chance of getting away with it by rolling a save but you are likely to fail and be paralyzed.
I'm not saying I particularly like or dislike this approach. I'm just saying I think it was the intended design.
When you look at the Hobgoblin's group damage bonus the same design choice stands out. Two hobgoblins together are much deadlier, so you better figure out a way to separate them or take them out from a distance, if you don't want to risk trusting dice rolls that have potential to be deadly.
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| #21ParaxisJul 10, 2014 9:14:13 | Is there anything that commonly gives you advantage on saves? If not another house rule could be every adds proficiency bonus to saves and if you have proficiency it gives you advantage on the roll. |
| (Reply to #20)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #23ChrisCarlsonJul 10, 2014 9:36:19 | Obviously, the flattening of bonuses is just one more benefit of BA. Monster ability DCs are not ramped up just because it has a higher CR.
I'm AFSS (away from starter set), but anyone know the DC of the dragon's breath from the Starter Set?
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| #24ParaxisJul 10, 2014 10:04:54 |
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| #25ChrisCarlsonJul 10, 2014 10:45:59 |
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| #26Brock_LandersJul 10, 2014 11:05:52 | I want to see about monster Proficiency Saving Throws. |
| #27Brock_LandersJul 10, 2014 11:07:43 |
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| #28GhostStepperJul 10, 2014 11:08:17 |
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| #29Brock_LandersJul 10, 2014 11:14:59 |
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| #30RastapopoulosJul 10, 2014 11:18:54 |
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| #31edwin_suJul 10, 2014 11:19:26 | asuming no 1 always fails and 20 always sucseeds, and lowest bonus +0 higest +11.
The DC range from 13 to 20 seems to be the sweet spot in the range the +0 can still make the DC 20 roling a 20, and the +11 can still fail the dc 13 by roling a 1
I think most save DC's would be in this range |
| #32SaelornJul 10, 2014 11:47:26 |
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| #33Person_ManJul 10, 2014 11:37:56 | I agree with Polaris here 100%. I think the root cause is that they didn't start with their desired success rates and then hard code it into math and stacking rules. They started out with "this feels ok as the base math" and then left the door open for classes/subclasses/magic items/feats/etc to add to it, assuming that everyone would do so and optimize their Saves as needed. This approach didn't work in 3.0/3.5/PF, and it's not going to work in 5E, because the door is also open for magic users to optimize their DCs upwards.
And as Paraxis correctly points out, a mid level adventurer could be hit with an enemy's breath weapon or special ability or spell on the first round of combat, only have a 25%ish chance of success on their Saving Throw, die if they fail that roll, and lose half their hit points if they succeed. And all of that could occur before the player makes any decisions whatsoever.
I'm not a fan of the super long grindy combats of 4E, but we did we really need the 5E to recreate the rocket tag, fantasy Vietnam, anyone can die at random at through no fault of their own feeling of earlier editions? Can't we have something in between? |
| #34RastapopoulosJul 10, 2014 11:43:01 |
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| #35ChrisCarlsonJul 10, 2014 11:44:26 |
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| #36PolarisJul 10, 2014 11:44:53 |
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| #37edwin_suJul 10, 2014 11:52:00 |
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| #38MarkhalJul 10, 2014 12:39:11 |
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| #39FallingIcicleJul 10, 2014 13:33:09 |
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| #40Tony_VargasJul 10, 2014 13:39:57 | I guess the flip side of this is "what do failed saves do to you." Someone mentioned a dragon able to instantly drop a same-level PC on a failed save. What else is out there? What's the worst a spell does on a failed save these days? |
| #41RastapopoulosJul 10, 2014 13:50:23 |
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| #42SaelornJul 10, 2014 14:13:42 |
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| #43Tony_VargasJul 10, 2014 15:12:26 |
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| #44LawolfJul 10, 2014 15:29:55 |
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| #45FallingIcicleJul 10, 2014 15:20:36 | This is why they should have made 20 always succed on a saving throw, just like attack rolls. There should always be some chance of succeeding on a saving throw, even if it is just 5%. |
| #46SaelornJul 10, 2014 15:23:09 |
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| #47PolarisJul 10, 2014 15:30:07 |
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| #48LawolfJul 10, 2014 15:33:36 |
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| #49ParaxisJul 10, 2014 15:39:34 | I am pretty sure spell DC starts at 8 because they didn't want save DC's to be higher than 20.
8 +5 +6 = 19 max spell DC for a caster.
Most normal humans can try and resist any spell. |
| #50SaelornJul 10, 2014 15:41:19 |
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| #51PolarisJul 10, 2014 15:43:12 |
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| #52frothsofJul 10, 2014 16:12:25 | Dragon breath should have a chance to drop u, or do u want to go back to wimpy 4e dragons? Its supposed to be one of the baddest monsters in the game and Im glad that they are actually effective this edition. I think its perfect. All the talk like its not deliberately that way by design makes me feel honestly sad for anyone that believes that. To go thru life that out of touch w reality must be a struggle. |
| #53PolarisJul 10, 2014 16:12:38 |
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| #54SaelornJul 10, 2014 16:32:34 |
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| #55JonWakeJul 10, 2014 16:33:15 | I've heard this is a problem, but I haven't witnessed it in game yet. A 20th level wizard with a maxed out Intelligence has a save DC of 19. Even a completely average character with no bonus in their stat has a 10% chance of making a save. I'd say that's pretty generous. A more likely gap would be a +1 Stat vs. a DC of say, 16 at level 10 (or 17 if they can max the stat out). That's a 25-20% chance to succeed against an DC. It's not great, of course, but it's not crippling.
I also think that it incentivizes more balanced character stats. Sure, getting that +5 in your Strength is nice, but your warrior will probably get more bang for your buck by bringing up Wisdom, Dexterity, or Intelligence scores. Proficiency matters far more than your stat for general character ability.
It could be that, in a year, when people are talking about optimizing a character, the best suggestion will be to raise your weaker stats well before you try to max out your prime stats. After all, you can't be optimal if your character doesn't survive past 5th level. |
| #56akaddkJul 10, 2014 16:43:30 | Hmm, what I'm seeing so far is that there are some people who look at things as absolutes and others who look at things as variable. An example being the Hold Person type spells. Some people look only at the math whilst others look at all the other possible variables that can have an effect.
I have to say that I think I am on the variable side. I like the idea also of avoiding the hold spell in the first place as has been mentioned. The fighter is held? Rogue hits the enemy wizard, breaking the spell. You're going into a lair with a Beholder that has Disintegrate ray? Find a way to ambush it or neutralise that effect before even going into its lair.
I'm so tired of players not caring about these things and merely rushing headlong into dungeons, not bothering to rest or think about the enemy they're going to face. It all becomes one big bland zerg-rush in those types of games. If players don't learn quickly that they need to put a bit of thought and tactics into their gameplay, then maybe Pathfinder is a better system for them than 5e. |
| (Reply to #54)frothsof |
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| #58MarkhalJul 10, 2014 16:52:11 | I'm also pretty confident that feats and magical items will turn the table definitely in favor of defenses against saving throw DCs that will always be capped around 19 (given the stats limit). |
| #59LawolfJul 10, 2014 16:58:23 |
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| #60SaelornJul 10, 2014 17:07:22 |
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| #61MarkhalJul 10, 2014 17:11:42 |
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| #62LFKJul 10, 2014 18:31:50 |
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| #63Tony_VargasJul 10, 2014 21:03:09 |
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| #64LFKJul 10, 2014 21:26:59 |
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| #65Tony_VargasJul 11, 2014 13:34:08 |
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| (Reply to #65)LFK |
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| #67pauln6Jul 10, 2014 23:41:16 |
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| #68Mephi1234Jul 11, 2014 4:26:18 | Saves aren't made in a vaccum - they're made alongside a party and while carrying magic items. If you're traveling with a paladin, cleric, or bard, there's a good chance they have something to help you out. Druid may as well, I don't recall.
Consider the case of a level 20 party with a Paladin running Bless. Everyone's getting 5+1d4 added to their saves. Consider the case where there's a lot of ways to get advantage on saves, or free rerolls, which from what people tell me averages out to about a +5 to a roll.
You can have a party that's averaging out to an effective +12 bonus to their saves before we add in their own save scores or the d20 roll. Against a max DC from spellcasters of 19? Your proficent saves will laugh, and your bad, non-proficent saves will still have a better than half chance of success. Even at a -1 penalty to a save (non-proficency and 8 attribute), your chances are about 60% of success.
Now this math is assuming that things remain roughly the same from the playtest package, where there were feats and magic items to take that granted these benefits. And, other than DM fiat, granting disadvantage on saves was rare (playtest package had tiefling racial, and that's it; I expect one or two other rare methods, but not many). Its no where near exact as I'm playing pretty fast and loose with the numbers, but it does highlight the issue.
There are ways to boost your saves if you so desire, which change the shape of the field a lot. |
| #69UngeheuerLichJul 12, 2014 12:11:16 | First I want to state, I like the save dynamnic on low levels.
So my proposal: change DC to 10+X instead of 8+X (effectively raising DC by 2) and add an extra proficiency modifier to all saves. Very easy for houseruling.
This way, I guess most people would have been satisfied as 10+x seems more familiar in our D20 game. We also see good saves really protecting you vs higher level magic.
But after all, we will see how the base game works out. ;) |
| #70Xeviat-DMJul 12, 2014 13:06:21 |
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| #71spelleyJul 12, 2014 13:21:42 | Simple mod to saving throws if you feel this is a problem: at +3 or +4 proficiency give non-proficient saves a +1 and then scale that each time proficiency increases. I personally dont have an issue with it myself but that would be a fair compromise. |