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| #1dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 13:52:57 | For those that just can't stand the default video game like healing rules for long rests, powers like Second Wind, and Hit Dice (healing surges), how will you fix these problems and do you think the DMG will have all the options you require? One concern I have is that monsters might hit a bit too hard because the game assumes that the party can rest once and regain all their hit points. With the game designed around the adventuring day in this manner, I think the game might require an adjustment to the clerics healing spells per day. Of course, I want magical healing to be a required aspect of the game and I don't mind the group's dependancy on a cleric. Basically, I'm just looking to play a traditional D&D game with 5e. I'm interested in reading your solutions to this problem. |
| #2TiaNadiezjaJul 29, 2014 14:02:18 | I won't. Because it's not a problem. Because fast healing isn't "video game." It's game, yes, but it's been hanging out in RPGs since basically the start of RPGs, because it's overall convenient and good for the health of the game.
Slow healing rules aren't something for players to follow; they're something for players to bypass, because they make the game nigh-unplayable. That makes them a restriction on player choice - the "who's going to bite the bullet and plary a cleric this time" problem many groups hit in Second Edition. Best to not require someone at the table to play something they don't like by eliminating a rule that was rarely used on account of being bypassed anyway.
Also, using "video game" (or "MMO," "cartoony," or "disassociative") as a generic insult meaning "thing I don't like" makes Cookie Monster sad. And sad Cookie Monster stops eating cookies and starts eating souls. Do you really want to be responsible for Big Bird losing his soul? |
| #3Mephi1234Jul 29, 2014 14:05:54 |
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| #4SaelornJul 29, 2014 14:07:14 | Just set the short rest dial to 6 hours, and the long rest dial to 18 hours (with no more than one allowed per week). Then, reduce the encounter rate such that you only deal with one "typical adventuring day" worth of combats during that period. |
| #5LawolfJul 29, 2014 14:13:10 | Well, if you want to go for super silly, highly unrealistic, slow healing rates, all you need to do is use the old skool healing rate of 1 HP per day (no second wind, no HD, etc). If you could play a 2e game with healing at a rate of 1 HP per day, you can play a 5e game with healing at a rate of 1 HP per day.
Sure your players may need to rest for a week after every fight (even though their injuries somehow fail to impede their physical capabilities in any way), but does that really matter? If you have a magical healer, it will probably only require a day or two of rest. Otherwise, the DM can hand out healing potions like candy. |
| #6Mephi1234Jul 29, 2014 14:13:18 |
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| #7TiaNadiezjaJul 29, 2014 14:17:50 | On a more "actually answer the OP's question" note... I'd not change HP healing at all, except for eliminating the full regaining of hit points at long rests. Hit Dice are spent to recover Hit Points, which lets people run through multiple encounters in a day.
Then reduce how many Hit Dice are regained per day. |
| #8AH_schulertaJul 29, 2014 14:22:43 | Healing and health regen have been one of the things I have never liked about D&D, till this edition (didn't play 4e). I cannot comprehend how someone would prefer the old ways. |
| #9Mephi1234Jul 29, 2014 14:25:56 | It was an honest question. Lets not be insulting towards someone. Asking nicely for opinions and thoughts should be encouraged.
Insulting him is NOT. COOL. |
| #10FitzTheRukeJul 29, 2014 14:34:40 | At the risk of sounding like I'm also ignoring the OP (I'm not, honestly, I see where you're coming from)
I'd rather ditch Magical healing than Non-Magical. I get tired of Magic fixing everything and characters being incapable of amazing things without it. Aliens didn't create the pyrmads, nor was there magic involved. People did that. People can do all sorts of crazy things. I want a game where people do amazing things, and sometimes (amazingly) they also do magic.
But that really has little to do with what dmgorgon is talking about. I admit I think the current long rest healing is too fast. I hope you find a solution that suits you, 'gorgon. |
| #11setiJul 29, 2014 14:36:12 | At some point, all the house rules and changes to RAW can get out of hand. If you must have clerics, wands, potions, etc. handle all your HP healing, then only allow clerics, wands, and potions to spend the party's HD, second winds, whatever. Or have the PC's rest up at an inn or church for 1d4 weeks after every few encounters.
If someone prefers 4e, play 4e.
If someone prefers 3e, play pathfinder.
If someone prefers 2e, play 2e.
And so on,...
5e isn't the D&D to end all D&D, it's just another edition. I won't play it if I have to change it into 'not 5e' to make it palatable to myself and the people I play with.
Besides, WotC will do a 6e in 5 years or so, or the brand will die, or change ownership. |
| (Reply to #9)seti |
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| #13SturmunddrangJul 29, 2014 14:43:38 |
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| #14SturmunddrangJul 29, 2014 14:45:10 |
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| #15QmarkJul 29, 2014 14:50:43 | Of course, that's going to be a very healthy ditch. |
| (Reply to #14)seti |
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| #17melloredJul 29, 2014 14:58:14 | If you reduce healing. Reduce all healing.
Otherwise, just add "magic".
i.e.
Bed roll of resting: This magic bedroll will heal all wounds overnight. No adventurer would leave home without one. |
| #18SturmunddrangJul 29, 2014 15:17:55 |
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| #19CVBJul 29, 2014 15:20:30 |
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| #20GnarlJul 29, 2014 15:23:44 | @dmgorgon:
1) Don't use the encounter guidelines, use weaker monsters. 2) Double the amount of HP you regain from all healing spells. 3) Be extra careful with critters that deal AOE attacks. If they did their math properly, monsters with AOE attacks will be underrated if you remove HD healing. |
| #21BecDeCorbinJul 29, 2014 15:30:58 | Lots of video games don't allow you to heal your hit points. In some you die instantly if you so much as touch an enemy. D&D characters have it easy.
Honestly, the 5E hit dice system and non-clerical healing go towards "encounters per day" more than "encounter difficulty". If you remove them, your group will not be able to face as many encounters per day but you shouldn't have too many other problems (assuming you're not using a published adventure with a timeline).
Class abilities, such as the fighter's second wind, should get replacements as well, otherwise you're just picking on some classes.
Of course, if you want a traditional game, why not just play a traditional game system? I can't imagine non-clerical healing can be your only objection to 5E at that rate.
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| #22dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 17:11:38 |
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| #23MechaPilotJul 29, 2014 17:15:44 |
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| #24dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 17:16:52 |
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| #25dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 17:18:07 |
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| #26MechaPilotJul 29, 2014 17:21:07 |
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| #27dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 17:26:33 |
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| #28dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 17:29:10 |
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| #29SaelornJul 29, 2014 17:33:45 |
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| #30dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 17:34:25 |
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| #31dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 17:37:46 |
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| #32Azzy1974Jul 29, 2014 17:43:20 |
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| #33ShadeRavenJul 29, 2014 17:47:13 |
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| #34ChrisCarlsonJul 29, 2014 18:06:01 | Is the Healing Ditch anywhere near the Mod Ghetto? |
| #35Lady_AurallaJul 29, 2014 18:22:23 | Its loaded language and intentional attacks like we are seeing here that has in part helped fragment the playerbase and put the game we all love at risk. People have their rights to their opinion on the healing subject and the playing style being espoused here is just one of many valid playstyles but need people be so rude and abrasive. The dislike of non magical healing does not necessitate such rudeness and hostility to those who do and vise versa. Rudeness and thinly vieled attacks quickly overtake the subject being discussed so by doing so you are harming your own cause unless your goal is to just attack those with different tastes. |
| (Reply to #2)Shiroiken |
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| #37dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 19:14:50 |
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| #38dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 19:23:48 |
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| (Reply to #38)Lord_Ventnor |
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| #40ShadeRavenJul 29, 2014 19:31:09 |
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| #41ChrisCarlsonJul 29, 2014 19:34:35 |
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| #42dmgorgonJul 29, 2014 19:48:16 |
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| #43LawolfJul 29, 2014 19:55:44 | Non magical healing makes perfect sense if you are smart enough to read the rules about what HP represent in 5e... |
| #44CVBJul 29, 2014 20:00:18 |
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| #45TiaNadiezjaJul 29, 2014 20:06:15 | Also, did you read where I offered advice for your question?
If I wanted to move to a slow healing system (I don't, but if I did) without waiting on the DMG, here's how I'd do it:
1. Five minute short rests to undo a bit of the damage the rest of this does to martial characters. 2. All healing abilities that do not spend spell slots instead grant temporary hit points. 3. Keep the Hit Die system; eliminate full healing at long rests. Hit Points become one's ability to withstand harm in the short term; hit dice one's overall endurance to damage. 4. Restore (level/a number) hit dice per long rest, depending on how slow you want healing to be. 5. Regain 1 HD whenever you receive a healing effect.
I think this is the most balanced, least harmful way to accomplish the goal. |
| #46ORC_LocheJul 29, 2014 20:13:49 | Removed some personal attacks and insulting - that's against the Code of Conduct.
http://company.wizards.com/policies/web/conduct
Let's keep it civil. |
| #47Tony_VargasJul 29, 2014 21:27:45 | The only serious potential issue with reducing the healing available in the game is one of pacing. The game is balanced around an average number of encounters/rounds per day. Reducing available healing, whether due to lack of casters able to heal in the party, or reducing the efficacy of potions or HD, or slowing overnight healing, will necessarily shorten the ' length' of the day, making rest-recharge abilities more available, and thus characters with a disproportionate number of them, overpowered.
There are ways to compensate. For instance, you could reduce spell slots, in proportion to the shortening of the day.
If you've eliminating all healing outside of PC spells, though, a creative, self-limiting solution would be to simply add cure wounds to all caster lists, and make preparation of it automatic and free. That say, all casters would share the 'healing' burden, and their daily slots would be effectively reduced. You would have to be on guard against the player-initiated 5MVD, however.
Finally, a very simple 'Gordian knot' way to eliminate non-magical healing is to declare all healing magical by DM fiat.
Good luck! |
| #48SturmunddrangJul 29, 2014 21:42:54 |
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| #49LawolfJul 29, 2014 22:30:08 | Oh really...
How to play page 74:
Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck...The loss of hit points has no effect on a creatures capabilities until the creature drops to 0 hit points.
Pg 75:
When your current hit point total is half or more of your hitvpoint maximum, you typically show no signs of injury. When you drop below half your hit point maximum, you show signs of wear such as cuts and bruises to 0 hit points strikes you directly, leaving a bleeding injury or other trauma, or it simply knocks you unconscious.
Hmm that would all imply that HP as non physical injury is the norm. Afterall, you can be dropped to 0 HP, and then take a short one hour rest and are back to full HP! Does this mean your body is fully repaired? Nope, you still have those cuts and bruises, but you are at full HP. That means that HP and bodliy injury are nor corellated at a 1 to 1 ratio. HP and bodily injury are separate. You can have full HP while scraped and bruised, so overnight healing and second wind make perfect sense. If HP represented real injuries more severe than minor scrapes and bruises, you would suffer penalties before reaching 0 HP. This means that HP loss cannot represent significant bodily harm. The 5e rules are quite clear on these points. So there you have it, DMgorgon is simply unable (or unwilling) read the 5e rules. You too sturm.
Glad to be of help. |
| #50PsikerlordJul 29, 2014 22:47:51 |
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| #51OrzelJul 29, 2014 23:05:45 | If you want a nonmagical healing version of Second Wind, name it Parry and make it 1d10+level damage reduction as a reaction. |
| #52lawrencehoyJul 29, 2014 23:18:33 |
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| #53Xeviat-DMJul 29, 2014 23:19:07 | I'm coming in to say that if someone doesn't like non-magical healing, and their group is down for it, it's perfectly fine for them to go without it.
I'd recommend using another system's injury mechanics along with it. Allow people to heal X hp for taking Y injury. Basically, it's the player's decision when an injury happens, except for when they're dropped to 0 hp. The player says "nah, you didn't stab me, you broke my arm". Then you can have the injuries heal slowly, while allowing HP to heal at a rate which is condusive to play.
My only chief complaint, as a player, would be that a game with restricted non-magical healing would be a game where those capable of healing spells, healing potions, and temple/hospitals would become all but required. That feels like a very magic-heavy world to me, when a gritty game implies a low magic world to me. |
| #54ZardnaarJul 30, 2014 2:22:50 | Some ideas.
Ovvernight healing is now 1d3 hit points not full healing. HD based healing is gone Second Wind is replaced with a feat/stat boost.
Clerics gain +1 spell each tiome they get a new spell level. Can only be used on the cure spells.
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| #55kalilJul 30, 2014 2:01:50 |
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| #56RottleJul 30, 2014 2:40:29 |
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| (Reply to #11)CCS |
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| #58SturmunddrangJul 30, 2014 6:10:20 |
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| #59melloredJul 30, 2014 6:13:25 |
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| (Reply to #38)Azzy1974 |
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| (Reply to #56)Azzy1974 |
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| #62dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 6:35:48 |
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| #63dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 6:35:06 |
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| #64melloredJul 30, 2014 6:50:29 | There are 3 seperate issues here.
1: Non-Magic healing. You descibe your wounds as physical, and find regaining hit points without magic to break your versimilitud. Easily solved by adding the word "magic" to the long / short rest rules.
A character can spend one or more Hit Dice at the end of a short rest, because of the magic ____. At the end of a long rest, a character regains all lost hit points because of the magic _____.
Could be a magic... bed roll healing potion wand of cure wounds NPC healbot mini-warforged medic faries of destiny ritual performed when you graduated fighter school familar boon from a god ect...
You can even mix and match to keep the flavor up.
2: Rapid healilng. You want to play a more gritty campaign where a hard battle isn't simply erased overnight. Easily solved by adjust how long a long rest is.
A short rest is a period of downtime, at least <s>1 hour</s> 8 hours long,
A long rest is a period of extended downtime, at least <s>8
You may want a few extra tweeks, like adjusting arcane recovery to work every short rest. But this will be in the DMG.
3: Fear of change. You want D&D to be the way it was in 1 or 2e.
Ignore the rules, and make it the way you want. |
| #65dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 6:55:29 |
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| #66melloredJul 30, 2014 7:02:38 |
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| #67EMRJul 30, 2014 7:15:29 | The easiest way to accomplish what you want is to have all forms of non magical healing grant temporary HP.
So Second Wind grants an equal amount of Temp HP, Spending Hit Dice during Rests gives you temp HP, etc.
What this does is ensure that every character has as many "Hit Points" as the game intends, but instead of it being mundanes growing limbs back, it's simply them catching their breath and using their skill and tenacity to avoid injury.
Simple, balanced, and it still let's the mundanes have nice things. |
| #68LawolfJul 30, 2014 7:20:06 |
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| #69spelleyJul 30, 2014 7:36:48 |
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| #70masterfat78Jul 30, 2014 7:54:03 | Defining HPs as all physhical is more videogamy than any of the points the op is complaining about. The fact that a level 5 fighter can take 3 more direct axe attacks than a first level fighter is very final fantsay too me. |
| #71dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 8:08:17 |
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| #72LawolfJul 30, 2014 8:17:31 | If you want to play in a silly hyper-unrealistic game where HP map to real physical injury that takes weeks to heal (but also have no impact on your effectiveness) then go ahead. Nothing is stopping you from removing HD healing, overnight healing, and second wind. It seems like a really easy change to make. |
| #73dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 8:22:32 |
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| #74dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 8:37:05 |
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| #75LawolfJul 30, 2014 8:47:28 |
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| #76The_JesterJul 30, 2014 8:57:12 | Y'know folks, if you disagree with the OP and don't think like him, it's easier to just NOT post in his thead asking for advice suggestions. There's lots of other posts on the go, or start your own discussions. If you feel it is *vital* to discuss healing in video games compared to D&D, well that could be it's own thread.
Okay, removing non-magical healing. The one playtest idea I liked was that you only healed overnight by burning hit dice. Pairing that with the slower recovery of hit dice means that you don't really heal much overnight if you heal during the day. Hit dice healing during a short rest is basically stoping to bind wounds and "heal" in an hour or two rather than eight hours.
You could halve hit dice and cap the number used every 24-hours. We'll say proficiency bonus for ease. So your PCs can heal a little during the day but can't really get back up to full without magic.
You can adjust the healing in other ways. Perhaps when you use hit dice during a short rest it's only temporary hitpoints. (That would also work for second wind.) That way short rests keep you going for another fight or two, but can't keep you up forever. |
| #77sleypyJul 30, 2014 9:35:12 | Pretend like your pretend martial healing is instead pretend magic healing. That seems to be the general solution given for every other problem. |
| #82dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 10:31:01 |
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| #83BecDeCorbinJul 30, 2014 10:31:20 |
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| #84dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 10:42:30 |
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| #85DraconesJul 30, 2014 10:49:32 | I personally wouldn't touch HP, but rather HD. HP would represent the amount of shock a person can take to their system before dying or passing out while HD would be the longer term injuries that slow a person down after the adrenalin has worn off.
So if you have 8 HP and take a 6 point arrow in a fight it really won't slow you down any. After the fight you can spend a HD to recover the 6 HP and at that point you have a wound attached to the HD that won't come back until you heal the wound(rest or magic). Magic healing in this system would let you recover the HP without spending HD(injuries), but may or may not let you recover HD spent on prior healing of HP. If it doesn't then that just represents that minor healing spells must be used in the "golden hour" of taking trauma or the healing doesn't work. HD spending should probably also be used in the golden hour too.
Benefits of the above is it shouldn't really impact the game mechanics any, it keeps the system in the players' control and it allows for very realistic wound modeling since spending HD can really be any kind of injury you can imagine. |
| #86ChrisCarlsonJul 30, 2014 10:54:50 |
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| #87OrzelJul 30, 2014 10:59:22 |
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| #88dmgorgonJul 30, 2014 11:34:19 |
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| #89sleypyJul 30, 2014 11:36:13 |
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| (Reply to #121)Cennedi |
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| #123LawolfJul 30, 2014 17:57:00 |
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| #124Jbickley00Jul 30, 2014 17:57:01 | Well i'll pick up on the thrust of the thread, rather than directly reply to the o.p., since several good solutions have been put forward. The reality of rapid, non magical, healing is that it simply streamlines a table top reality. Experienced players and experienced parties load up on magical healing, and take days to rest between encounters so the clerics can heal the party up. I was initially opposed to the idea, but as i thought about it, i realized as a DM i never had a party that faced a serious encounter with less than full hit points. The reality is that non magical healing just accomplishes what the party is able to to do magically, as a practical matter the outcome is the same. So why worry? Wht non magical healing does is it keeps the clerics from being healbots, and lets them exlpore other spell casting posiblities. Secondly, it keeps me from having to create a fasle economy for healing potions and magical items, as any successful party dependent of magic items can simply buy out the world market. I can always say no as a DM, but that just leaves the players bitter and resting, and the game becomes a set of random encounters every night the players rest. To me this is less than fun. As far as "gamey" goes...its GAME. The healing rules let me focus on stuff that matters, and magic healing becomes important in fights, where it makes a difference. outside of a fight, magic and non magic healing are basically identical. |
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| #126ShadeRavenJul 30, 2014 21:55:46 |
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| (Reply to #126)Cennedi |
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| #128ZardnaarJul 31, 2014 3:27:13 |
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| #129ORC_CricketJul 30, 2014 23:59:31 | We’ve removed content from this thread because of a violation of the Code of Conduct.
You can review the Code here: http://company.wizards.com/conduct
Please keep your posts polite, on-topic, and refrain from making personal attacks. You are welcome to disagree with one another but please do so respectfully and constructively.
Remember, a community is a joint effort of all those involved, and while we want intelligent meaningful and productive banter to ensue we also need it to be polite and considerate of others.
Thank you for your time and support as we continue to try and make a great community for everyone. |
| #130Caliburn101.Jul 31, 2014 4:23:22 |
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| #131ShadeRavenJul 31, 2014 6:12:03 |
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| #132dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 6:15:45 |
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| #133MecheonJul 31, 2014 6:25:28 | Y'know, just going to bring something up...
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| #134freudpimpJul 31, 2014 6:37:15 | to the OP
If you want more magical healing to compensate for the reduction of non-magical, in addtion to the doubling the effectiveness of healing spells alreadysuggested, you might think about adding the channel positive energy ability that is available to clerics in Pathfinder for a little extra boost.
I think you are right that the monsters become an issue of you remove the expected healing or resource recovery. I have read a couple different accounts of the starter set aqdventure were most of the party drops to 0 hit points in the first little delve. Perhaps the DMG while outlining the different healing modules will offer suggestions around monsters. |
| #135dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 6:47:35 |
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| #136dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 6:53:33 |
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| #137MecheonJul 31, 2014 6:59:51 |
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| #138dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 7:21:59 |
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| #139MecheonJul 31, 2014 7:23:41 |
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| #140melloredJul 31, 2014 7:33:29 |
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| #141dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 7:40:51 |
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| #143LawolfJul 31, 2014 8:26:58 |
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| #144dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 8:34:44 |
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| #145ChrisCarlsonJul 31, 2014 8:35:28 | Are you guys going to make me cast Summon CyberDave?! |
| #146dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 8:46:17 | As for how illusions worked in 2e, they can be semi-real.
Here is what 2e says about this subject.
" Spells of this school can be grouped into two general categories: illusions and phantasms. Illusions are spells that simulate reality, creating artificial conditions of light, color, sound, and scent. Audible glamer is an example of an illusion that simulates sound. In general, the lower-level illusions are of limited use in combat situations, providing neither direct protection from damage nor the ability to inflict damage on opponents. Though most illusions create only the appearance of reality, some high-level spells tap extradimensional forces to create illusions with physical substance, capable of inflicting damage and otherwise interacting with the real world. Shadow monsters is an example of a quasi-real illusion. These are the most useful types of illusion spells in combat, as they can create illusionary creatures to attack opponents and execute an assortment of other tactical actions. Another type of illusion focuses extradimensional forces to alter the physical form of the caster. Wraithform is an example. These are especially good defensive spells, as they protect the caster from a variety of attack forms." |
| #147Templar309Jul 31, 2014 9:04:10 |
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| #148spelleyJul 31, 2014 9:15:16 | Even though the OP is also in on it.... wouldn't this thread benefit more from discussing options for those that want to remove inspirational healing for whatever reason while keeping the core structure of the game intact be more useful than endlessly debating about the merits of removing inspirational healing? It'd be nice if this was just a list of "mods" for those looking for such an experience without having to grok through all the jibber-jabber?
-------------------------------------------------- As far as I can see, options that have been proposed include:
1) Wound/Condition Tracking (2e style crit table as inspiration) 2) Maximum HP reduction for "meat" injuries 3) Slower natural healing (specifically mentioned in the PHB) 4) Inspirational HP gain => temporary HP (both "wears off and what hp you have is what you have" and "goes first" flavours) 5) Long rest recovers Hit Dice but not HP 6) Strip martial healing for other "durability" class features of equivalent value (subjective, obviously) 7) Double magical healing (along with 4/7, generally)
Probably more that I missed, but as I said, grokking through the rest of these posts looking for useful nuggets isn't my cup of tea. |
| #149BrightmantleJul 31, 2014 9:58:50 | To the O.p.: If you wish to drop h.d. healing and long rest total healing for your game perhaps this could be an option. When playing AD&D we developed an alternate healing rate for natural healing back in the 1990's. You would naturally heal 1+1 per character level per 8 hous rest and account this once per day. I.E. at level 1 you healed 2 h.p., at level 5 you healed 6 h.p. per 8 hours rest. Since h.p. aren't strictly meat in either of these two editions and h.p. will be like unto AD&D at low to mid levels maybe this will work. This variant healing never over powered the characters and we felt was more reasonable than the 1 h.p. per day of rest rule included in the ruleset. So at level 20 you would heal 21 h.p. per 8hrs. of rest. Now to share my personal opinion as an Olde school AD&D gamer of 26 years: " And the crowd ignores me" lol I do not take issue with non magical healing in 5e, nor have I found it to be over powering in our experience playing through the Starter set. The game is balanced as such that it is helpful but in no way over powers the party or removes the encounters challenges. In fact- finding a place to rest in hostile territory can be difficult and even random encounters can thwart the long rest option pretty easily. Continuity is the relevant concept here. For our group most of which have been plaing since the 1980's it's ( h.d. healing and Long rest) a non issue. Btw. we all love the game thus far.For the record (temporary) inspirational healing is also fine by me. I like the concept of the Warlord and would like to see him included in the game as a true warrior rather than a reflavored Cleric. I hope the fighter class "Battlemaster" (subclass?) covers this. |
| #150dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 10:17:39 |
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| #152Brock_LandersJul 31, 2014 10:26:47 |
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| #154viper5Jul 31, 2014 11:28:22 |
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| #155dmgorgonJul 31, 2014 12:35:45 |
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| #157vacthokJul 31, 2014 14:35:00 | If it is the *idea* of non-magical healing that bothers you, and not the rate or amount of healing that is available if non-magical healing exists, then the least disruptive thing to do is simply replace non-magical healing with magical healing effects. I'd probably make the following spell and put it on cleric/druid/whatever spell lists:
---------- Revitalize 1st-level transmutation (ritual) Casting Time: 1 minute Range: Touch Components: V, S, M (a vial of holy water or a pinch of fertile soil) Duration: Instantaneous
You touch a creature, stimulating its body's own natural healing processes. The target can roll any number of hit die it possesses and add the sum of those die to its current hit points, up to its hit point maximum. Over the next hour, any small cuts, bruises or other minor injuries are mended, although more serious injuries such as broken bones or missing limbs are not affected. Because this spell draws upon the energies contained within the target's body, a creature cannot benefit from this spell more than once without taking a rest. ----------
The spell can't be effectively cast during combat, but can be cast during short rests (when non-magical healing would otherwise normally be applied), and obeys all the limitations placed on normal hit-die healing. The caster has the option to spend a slot for a "quick" cast, but also can use it without draining his or her resources if cast as a ritual (so the spell wont place a penalty on the cleric for replacing the normal means on non-magical healing). It's specifically limited to the repair of minor/trivial physical damage so as to not interfere with any wounds system you may want to include, but should function at an appropriate level of power regardless of what you decide HP "actually" represents. The only drawback relative to normal non-magical healing is that the spell requires a cleric/druid/whatever to be present, but that seems to be implied in the desire for exclusively magical healing.
If the "problem" of non-magical healing is that it makes healing too abundant, then you are necessarily left with the effect of slowing the adventuring pace due to the removal of healing sources, regardless of the reasons you think healing was too abundant. This doesn't necessarily affect game balace *except* in the cases where time is a factor in the adventure. Since time considerations are not necessarily going to always be important, again, the least disruptive thing to do is provide the characters with some kind of temporary boost in magical healing sources if you plan on pushing their endurance. Let them find a cache of healing potions, or provide a friendly cleric in town that they can patronize. You can very quickly estimate how much extra healing would be available under the normal rules by simply averaging the hit die the party would normally possess at whatever level they are at. You can then simply dial the number of healing potions/the NPC cleric's spell slots to whatever % of the expected healing you think matches the difficulty you want for the particular timed scenario, then let your players go back to managing their own normal resources when they have the luxury of taking however long to magically replenish themselves.
Finally, if the "problem" is that you want physical effects that non-magical healing couldn't realistically mend, then just pick your favorite wound model system and drop it on. There was another thread that suggested using the Exhaustion rules to make a quick Wound Track, which seems to me like an excellent and minimally disruptive houserule. You also have access to the advantage/disadvantage mechanic, as well as the various status conditions if you want to make your own custom Wound Track. You'd simply have to decide what things, if any, can "cure" wounds, and you're set. In terms of game balance, any kind of wound system will make things more difficult for your players, but it shouldn't distort the underlying creature/combat balance that exists. It should be relatively straightforward to drop a wounds system onto any campaign and run it as-is while keeping in mind that it will end up having your characters expend resources to mend any wounds they accrue (though that seems to be the entire point of introducing this kind of system, so it's not really a problem per-se) |
| #158CVBJul 31, 2014 15:09:42 | Ok, at this point, DMGorgon doesn't want any thing other that 'His Game', which from what I can gather is AD&D 2e. Which is frankly, perfectly fine. Nothing we say or we point out on how badly chosen his 'video game like' insult (and yes, it is an insult. It's used to dismiss any other edition's rules, no matter the stated intent. Just like DMGorgon DID in the FIRST POST) really is. Especially since out of combat healing in a lot of Video Games (like Capcom's Knights of The Round, a fantasy game) does not happen without magical help, or that in most games, you are not impeded in any way until the last of your health bar is gone, as in zero health, in which you drop dead.
That aside, it would appear that DMGorgon came in here expecting an echo chamber, given his constant counter-arguments, and apparent misreading of Gary Gygax's writing (because that excerpt he put up is EXACTLY THE SAME as LaWolf's, just in different words.) He doesn't want our opinions or ideas. So fine, let him play AD&D his way, and I hope he has fun with it for the rest of time.
Me? I'm done. I'm going to play my game, my way and have blast. Just like he will. |
| #159thespaceinvaderJul 31, 2014 15:09:46 |
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| #160ZardnaarJul 31, 2014 15:28:14 |
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| #161GattJul 31, 2014 15:50:32 |
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| #162KalaniJul 31, 2014 18:52:25 | Dictionary definitions can help at times - except when they conflict with a defined term within a closed system (game, law, anime world etc). Within a closed system, in-system definitions trump dictionary definitions every time. Outside of that system, dictionary definitions apply - but within the system, the defined term (which is usually listed in the rules, glossary, or other similar lexicon) holds precedent in all conflict of understanding.
Damage in Dnd is defined as it relates to objects, and Hit Points. Hit points have been defined across multiple additions as some nebulous construct representing close calls, near misses, minor scrapes and bruises, fatigue, the ability to transform a serious blow into a less serious one (such as by dodging at the last second, rolling with the impact, etc), luck and a range of other nonphysical elements. When you deal damage to a creatures hit points, you wear away at this nebulous defense which protects skilled opponents from suffering true injuries. Like it or not, this was by design and has remained largely unchanged across the editions despite it being nebulous.
Its why a character can survive dozens of strikes with a dagger without suffering any serious injury. Its not that the characters are superhuman, its that the HP represent the skill of the character in preventing that dagger from striking something vital and doing serious damage. Its also why characters can fight at full capability until their HP reach zero, after which they drop. This was altered slightly in 4e, with the introduction of the bloodied condition representing minor injuries, and obvious signs of being worn down. |
| (Reply to #142)Cennedi |
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| #164FoxfaceJul 31, 2014 23:04:14 | Ah, 4e…the edition most lambasted for having no roleplay and for lacking realism in combat, yet it was the only edition that had meaningful rules for social adjudication as well ramifications for being injured in combat. |
| #165Brock_LandersJul 31, 2014 23:14:17 |
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| #166Brock_LandersJul 31, 2014 23:16:28 |
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| #167kalilJul 31, 2014 23:20:22 |
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| #168FoxfaceJul 31, 2014 23:32:34 |
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| (Reply to #165)Foxface |
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| (Reply to #168)Cennedi |
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| #171ZardnaarAug 01, 2014 2:07:46 |
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| #172TiaNadiezjaAug 01, 2014 2:27:51 |
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| #173MecheonAug 01, 2014 2:44:42 | I seriously do not understand what you people are talking about with 4E not having roleplay
Is it that you can't Bluff everyone into believing you're the moon, ala, say, popular video game Oblivion? Because that was a problem in 3.5E. |
| #174OrzelAug 01, 2014 3:11:56 | Glibness +30 to Bluff Good times....
...
.... Good times |
| #175TiaNadiezjaAug 01, 2014 3:19:46 |
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| #176Brock_LandersAug 01, 2014 5:58:02 |
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| #177KalaniAug 01, 2014 6:56:55 |
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| #178dmgorgonAug 01, 2014 7:12:50 |
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| #179ShadeRavenAug 01, 2014 7:29:36 |
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| #180dmgorgonAug 01, 2014 7:36:04 |
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| #181RastapopoulosAug 02, 2014 19:55:14 |
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| #182QmarkAug 02, 2014 20:01:52 |
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| #183RastapopoulosAug 02, 2014 20:18:14 |
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| #184dmgorgonAug 02, 2014 20:21:31 |
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| #185QmarkAug 02, 2014 20:27:57 |
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| #186RastapopoulosAug 02, 2014 20:35:49 |
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| #187RastapopoulosAug 02, 2014 20:41:07 |
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| #188LawolfAug 02, 2014 20:44:13 |
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| #189MechaPilotAug 02, 2014 21:04:33 |
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| #190RastapopoulosAug 02, 2014 21:27:32 |
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| #191CVBAug 02, 2014 23:09:08 | Can we please let this topic drop? It's not going to go anywhere, and it's currently devolving, yet again into an Edition War. |
| #192TiaNadiezjaAug 02, 2014 23:36:19 |
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| #193The_JesterAug 03, 2014 7:55:11 |
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| #194KalaniAug 03, 2014 8:18:48 |
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| #195ChrisCarlsonAug 03, 2014 8:18:31 |
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| #196KalaniAug 03, 2014 8:42:55 |
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| #197The_JesterAug 03, 2014 9:03:29 |
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| #198ChrisCarlsonAug 03, 2014 9:07:05 |
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| #199emwasickAug 03, 2014 16:50:23 |
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| #200TiaNadiezjaAug 03, 2014 18:00:23 |
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| #201ShadeRavenAug 03, 2014 21:37:43 |
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| #202CVBAug 03, 2014 21:42:04 |
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| #203emwasickAug 03, 2014 22:14:31 |
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| #204thespaceinvaderAug 04, 2014 1:33:50 |
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| #205ShadeRavenAug 04, 2014 4:26:26 |
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| #206TiaNadiezjaAug 04, 2014 4:30:27 | I pretty much never give automatic success on social checks for roleplaying, because that leads to a position where a charismatic player can spotlight-steal from a less charismatic player (who needs as little spotlight stolen as possible) who's playing a more-charismatic character. |
| #207ShadeRavenAug 04, 2014 4:40:26 |
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| #208OrzelAug 04, 2014 4:52:00 | This is why I adapted a special skill challenge system. Only once can a PC use any one Skill+Ability combo. I hide the number of success and failure to make it less metagamey and more natural. |
| (Reply to #206)AaronOfBarbaria |
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| #210emwasickAug 04, 2014 9:26:10 |
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| #211emwasickAug 04, 2014 9:30:56 |
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