Hey everyone! I thought I'd do a quick analysis of the Two Weapon Fighting style compared to the Great Weapon Fighting style (called TWF and GWF from here forward). When I first saw the way fighting with two weapons was handled in the book, I was excited; 2d6+str equals 1d6+1d6+str after all. But it doesn't scale with Extra Attack, so I was worried. This whole time, I was considering house-ruling "fighting with two weapons" to grant extra attacks from extra attack. But first, I decided to sit down and crunch some numbers first.
Back in the day when I did this, I'd have hit chances factored in, but I'm not going to do this since 5E's fighting with two weapons doesn't have an attack penalty. I'll be comparing a GWFer and a TWFer at certain level points, and then after I'll discuss a few things that can skew them. I'm ignoring critica hits; the GWFer will have bigger crits, and the TWFer will have more crits, but these will average out.
Level 1
GWF average damage 11.3 (2d6+3, reroll 1 and 2)
TWF average damage 13 (1d6+3 x2)
Level 4 (Str or Dex increased to 18)
GWF average damage 12.3
TWF average damage 15
Level 5 (Extra Attack)
GWF average damage 24.7 (+1 weapon is 26.7)
TWF average damage 22.5 (+1 weapons are 25.5)
Level 8 (or 6 for fighter; Str or Dex 20)
GWF average damage 26.7 (+1 weapon is 28.7)
TWF average damage 25.5 (+1 weapons is 28.5); Dual Weapon Fighting adds +3 damage.
Level 11 (Fighter Extra Attack)
GWF average damage 40 (+1, 43; +2, 46)
TWF average damage 34 (+1, 38; +2, 42); Dual Weapon Fighting adds +4 damage.
Level 20 (Fighter Extra Attack)
GWF average damage 53.3 (+1, 57.3; +2, 61.3; +3, 65.3)
TWF average damage 42.5 (+1, 47.5; +2, 52.5; +3, 57.5); DWF adds +5 damage.
So, without magic items, TWF is better at 1st through 4th levels. At 5th level, GWFing pulls ahead a tiny bit, regained a tiny bit at 8th. It isn't really until 11th level that a fighter pulls far ahead, but this gap can be narrowed by magic weapons and the DWFing feat (I can't even begin to analyze the GWM feat at a glance, though, but ideally feats are balanced against each other so it should be similar).
This means a non-fighter, like a ranger say, gets more milage out of magic weapons.
I'm significantly less worried about TWFing now, though I'm more convinced that magic items are "required" (though not having them isn't as huge of a penalty as it was before)
The analysis seems incomplete without to-hit and critical-hit calculations.
durntaur wrote:
Now that I can see that (with magic items) they're really close, I'm inclined to agree with you. A TWFer has an advantage against multiple enemies (until the GWFer picks up GWM), and the TWFer wastes damage less, but the GWFer has big crits that feel fun. Since the difference between them at level 20 is only 8 points, and that difference goes away with a feat (or with a +4 weapon, dun dun!), I'm less worried than I was before crunching these numbers. I'd like them to be closer, but the two styles are different enough that it should be fine (and if I change crits to straight up double damage, it might help the TWFer because of the extra modifiers).
There are two main benefits.
GWF pairs well with GWM and/or Polearm Master. Better than TWF and DW does.
GWF requires only 1 magic weapon, not two. Even with Polearm master, your bonus attack gets the magic boost.
Coredump00 wrote:
I'm not the math expert here, but doesn't the big dex bonus to initiative, saves, and many useful skills have something that should work into the overall equation for the character as a whole. The character is more than just DPR. I'm not saying that you guys are neccessarily wrong, but that is also a factor in the ability for the overall character.
arnwolf666 wrote:
When a fighter wieldsa shield and a quarterstaff with polearm master and out tanks and outdamages TWF,
you know that is something wrong with twoweaponfighting.
best scenario I see is barbarian with 1lvl figter dip for style and dual wielder feat in rage where that works as all 3 attacks get rage damage bonus.
but you could do that class combo with glaive and polearm master feat and be better off.
there is much to be done about TWF.
now its only viable to melee rogues as they have nothing to put in their offhand.... until we get 2handed finesse weapon....
arnwolf666 wrote:
Horwath wrote:
Xeviat-DM wrote:
Speaking of +4 weapons, do they "properly" exist?
I mean, while the DMG clearly states that the max weapon bonus is +4, I've never seen an official example in the book.
(Of course, there's a good chance that I've skipped one such item as a mistake...)
FrogReaver wrote:
Nesian42Ryukaiel wrote:
The downside of TWF is also it used your bonus action which can be used for things like second wind and moving hex/hunters quarry around. In effect it is almost limited to Fighters and Rogues and I am not convinced it is the best poption there either. Its the weakest of the fighitn styles semi decent at level 1-4. Without feats being used it is also better.
I need to test what TWFing does to a rogue. Then I'm going to consider removing the bonus action requirement. If there were no magic items, or if magic weapons didn't increase damage, I'd consider other things.