Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 uglyvan Dec 10, 2014 13:15:10	the ten classes are   Acrobat Brute Hunter Leader Teacher Craftsman Fighter Druid Inspector Jeweller   then, you have 5 stats that you arrange two by two: like in Stat1 + Stat2 to one of the ten classes Stat1 + Stat3 to another class from the ten classes Stat1 + Stat4 to another class from the ten classes Stat1 + Stat5 to another class from the ten classes Stat2 + Stat3 to another class from the ten classes Stat2 + Stat4 to another class from the ten classes Stat2 + Stat5 to another class from the ten classes Stat3 + Stat4 to another class from the ten classes Stat3 + Stat5 to another class from the ten classes Stat4 + Stat5 to the last class   example, naming the Stats like :   Stat1 mercure Stat2 venus Stat3 mars Stat4 jupiter Stat5 saturn   merc/venus -- teacher merc/mars --- acrobat merc/jup ------ inspector merc/sat ------ jeweller venus/mars -- hunter venus/jup ----- brute venus/sat ----- druid mars/jup ------ leader mars/sat ------ fighter jup/sat -------- craftsman
#2 uglyvan Dec 10, 2014 13:30:10	well, the idea round here is to build ten classes from five stats; each stat ranges 1 to 10; then, you add or multipliate two stats to form a class value
#3 bawylie Dec 10, 2014 14:51:36	Wish I was smart enough to understand these. I've seen them before. Ren does these from time to time. I never grok it.
#4 rampant Dec 10, 2014 17:28:58	I think my problem is the lack of preamble and context so I have no idea what's going on, because these always seem like a lot of work and thought has gone into them but I have no idea what it is I'm looking at.
#5 Qmark Dec 10, 2014 18:16:34	Where this sort of combinatorics-based system falls apart, is when classes get arbitrary stuff (because flavor) anyway. It's good as general guide to see where a system has gaps, but that's about it.
(Reply to #4) The_White_Sorcerer	rampant wrote:
#7 bonethug0108 Dec 11, 2014 4:20:44	Art? Looks like a very basic "formula" to me. What is this used for?
#8 cowleymen Dec 11, 2014 5:41:09	doesnt look like anything yet. Though i think the use of the roman deities is very interesting and would love to know what kind of attributes they represent. Mercury screams speed/agility. I think it is interesting that they have Saturn(kronos to the greeks) in there as a stat when every thing else is an Olympian
#9 Wuzzard Dec 11, 2014 11:15:46	I think there is supposed to be a class here for every combination of two stats out of five.  So a single class focuses on or is associated with two of the five for its major abilities, etc.  Maybe there is some desire for completeness here, so there is a corresponding most-optimal class to pick no matter how the dice fall, or maybe just to ensure the most possible choices for characters that are unique in their stat focus. IDK.
#10 cowleymen Dec 11, 2014 11:36:03	I would love to see what the person is doing with it. If i dont hear somethig soon, I might decided to just do it myself
(Reply to #7) The_White_Sorcerer	bonethug0108 wrote:
#12 Hebitsuikaza Dec 11, 2014 13:05:37	I... am not sure entirely what I am looking at.   But... those are the 10 classes? Given that the game, at its base, is an adventure game I have to think that there are better, more applicable concepts that would apply the same sort of abilities.   Let's look a bit closer at what you have here.   Acrobat - This would be Rogue, at least the most default sort of Rogue. Brute - Barbarian, I suppose. Hunter - Ranger Leader - Bard or Warlord Teacher - Teacher? Scholar perhaps? In which case, this would become Magic User. Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock. Craftsman - Again, something that wouldn't actually work out in terms of actual gameplay. I suppose one could have an Artificer/Engineer class. Fighter - Okay, Fighter is Fighter, I guess. Druid - Again, I don't know why you are suddenly using actual class names. Druid is such a murky concept anyway, are we talking about a shapeshifter or a shaman/witch? Inspector - This.... might be an interesting concept for a class. I suppose one would simply roll this up into being a Rogue or sorts. Certainly a Detective would be some sort of skill-oriented character but it lacks an aspect in which it could contribute to combat. Jeweller - Aaaaand.... sounds like you totally lost your train of thought here. How could a "Jeweler" be in any way different from a "Craftsman"? A Jeweler is simply a very specific kind of Craftsman. Why not Merchant or Actor or Priest?     Frankly, this whole list of 10 just looks completely arbitrary to me. Maybe if I could see more clearly what physical or mental strengths you are expecting them to display, for instance-- why are Brute and Fighter in any way different? What is the imagined difference between a Jeweller and a Craftsman? Why Teacher? Why is Druid even a thing given the murkiness of its concept? But I heavily suspect that any more in-depth explaination as to the strengths each is meant to display would just further go to demonstrate that these labels are just completely arbitrary since likely those same strengths could be put towards any number of professions or roles and it probably wouldn't be difficult to name one that would be more appropriate to what characters with class levels are actually meant to accomplish in the game.     Why are the attributes named after planets anyhow?   After all, having a class and a level-- that indicates how good one is at combat. The increase in hit points and proficiency bonus that come with gaining levels in any class are indicative of a character's combat skills increasing. A craftsman could well spend 30 years at their craft and become a grandmaster at it,  but there is no need for them to be a higher level to convey this, you would just give them a larger bonus on that skill (although I suppose there is no mechanical way in the raw rules to convey this improved skill without an increased proficiency bonus or increased attribute) But there is no reason think a Craftsman's hit points ever increase unless they have been practicing combat.
#13 uglyvan Dec 12, 2014 8:20:01	another aspect of this arrangement is to halt any debate as to which stats bring up a class:   like in Str/Dex for the Rogue, Str/Con for the Fighter, Str/Int for the Texas Ranger ( like in the Inspector, Int is preferred to Wis because of find clues), Str/Wis for the Cleric and Str/Cha for the Paladin;   now, we say that Stat1/Stat2 brings the Rogue, but hidden Stat name can refer to any Stat so that Stat1 can aim to Str   (parenthesis here is we could use 6 Stats instead of 5 so as to represent the 6 classic stats)   ...   as well as to Dex or any other stat so that you can have a multiclass using three duos of the 6 stats...   OH NO!!   gremf!   seems like I come around my classic 15 classes associated to the 15 duos of three stats:     Str/Dex Rogue Str/Con Fighter Str/Int Ranger Str/Wis Cleric Str/Cha Paladin Dex/Con Ninja Dex/Int Illusionist Dex/Wis Monk Dex/Cha Thief Con/Int Psionicist Con/Wis Druid Con/Cha Barbarian Int/Wis Mage Int/Cha Bard Wis/Cha Leader     then, some of you will claim that a Druid should bear Con/Cha...     HOLY SH*T!!     can't trace back the idea I managed to handle so far...   Grouf!   (perhaps next time...)   **************SOFTWARE FAILURE**************   ************END OF TRANSMISSION************
#14 bawylie Dec 12, 2014 8:27:16	Ladies and gentlemen, what my acid trips look like.  ::gestures upward::
#15 Hebitsuikaza Dec 12, 2014 9:53:59	uglyvan wrote:
#16 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 10:03:12	Dude that totally cracked me up.     But I like the idea of a class system that could be made to work with a high stat in anything. As DnD is, Con helps every one by giving HP and for magic Concentration rolls. But it doesnt really make you a good character. Even the sorcerer really dosent need it, as even though its listed as one of his primary stats, it doesnt affect ANY of their class abilites!    Lets look at the three classes that benifit the most from high Con. Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian.  Those three are Iconic tanks, and always want high Con for more HP. Two out of the three will never get any other benefit from it though. Fighters dont get extra uses; or even bonus HP; with second wind, an obvious Con based feature. Paladins face a similar thing. But it doesnt bother me as much since that would make them very MAD. At least the Barbarian gets bonus AC with it (When wearing regular clothes). I would have said forget shields and just let it work with Leather armor. It still fits them very thematiaclly. But as a class that list Con as the only other ability besides Str that you need for the class, that seems like a very small use of the score.   Man....I think im going to think up a system like that.    What do yall think of these as stats.   Physique- A measure of your physical health. A combination of both your bodies natural immune system and your condition(being in or out of shape). Effects hand to hand combat and helps raise your HP.   Dex- Your bodies natural flexiablity and balace. Effects range combat and helps AC in lighter armor   Book learning- (needs a better name) But this is a reflection of your learning. traditonal Mages would use this, as would soilder type warriors that study schools of fighting(think battle master). Effect class features that are a reflection of study and dedication to what you do (fighting, magic, ect). Effect skills that you learn like history and arcana   (damn it i need a thesaurus)- Not so much study, but learned from experince. Streetsmarts or study of Hedge medicines and magics.    Anima- Power of your soul/spirit. THe base stat for anything magical. Also probably end up being useful for mind effect saves.   *edit* Skills would probably not be tied to stats any more, but just be things that you have learned or experince with. So any one could have study History, regardless if they have little to no actually Book Learning.    thoughts?
#17 bawylie Dec 12, 2014 10:34:10	Jaysus, I still do not feel smart enough for this conversation.
#18 Hebitsuikaza Dec 12, 2014 11:42:25	If one is even talking about altering the attributes in the first place, I would recommend 4.   Physique - Hit points and hitting power with weapons, used for Strength and Constituion saves. Grace - Used for AC, Dexterity saves, accuracy with melee weapons, skills that invove accuracy or speed (most dexterity skills) and possibly running speed if at all possible. Intellect - Used for skills that involve knowledge or experience (most intelligence and wisdom skills, some mechanical skills listed as Dex, profession skills, etc.), Intelligence saves, power depending on intellectual strength, and ranged attacks (physical or magical) and Iniative Spirit - Used for Charisma saves, skills that involve perception or manipulation of others, Wisdom and Charisma saves and magic that involves the power of one's soul.   The ultimate goal ought to be for every attribute is applicable to every single class in at least some way. And to do that you need to have as few attributes as possible while still allowing for there to be potential meaningful differences between them. No matter which one you raise or which one you dump, ultimately you will be strengthening or weakening your class in some way. There should be no system of "I raised this attribute, so now I have a +1 on damn near every single action this character is expected to take during the entireity of the game" and no "Why would I invest in this attribute? I am almost certainly never going to make any roll that this attribute affects and even if I do, someone else in the party can succeed at the roll and it will be as good as if I did?"   That is a fundamentally terrible system because every character will probably only have one class ever, which means that their weaker attributes are never going to affect them unless they entirely change characters-- in which case those will have a new set of attributes.
#19 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 12:33:40	I dont quite like the word Intellect, as I want to avoid the idea that some one with a low score in it should be dumb and not be able to make tactial descisions. I am curious on your line of thought of why to include ranged accuracy with Intellect.
#20 Hebitsuikaza Dec 12, 2014 13:46:08	cowleymen wrote:
#21 ankiyavon Dec 12, 2014 13:52:16	bawylie wrote:
#22 cowleymen Dec 12, 2014 14:33:22	Physique - Hit points and hitting power with weapons, used for Strength and Constituion saves. Grace - Used for AC, Dexterity saves, accuracy with melee weapons, skills that invove accuracy or speed (most dexterity skills) and possibly running speed if at all possible. Intellect - Used for skills that involve knowledge or experience (most intelligence and wisdom skills, some mechanical skills listed as Dex, profession skills, etc.), Intelligence saves, power depending on intellectual strength, and ranged attacks (physical or magical) and Iniative Spirit - Used for Charisma saves, skills that involve perception or manipulation of others, Wisdom and Charisma saves and magic that involves the power of one's soul.   So in a game using these four attributes, there is almost nothing that you can dump; or at least that you dont care if you have to dump. We know need to look at ways to roll these with their new added weight. I like that they have more weight though. As they are, this creates a certian amount of MAD to a new system   A class like the monk, could arguably need high stats in all four. By splitting to hit and damage between Phyisque and Grace, a Monk would need both of those in decent measure, and Spirit as well, as all their supernatural abilities would come from Spirit. Paladins face a similar problem, as do Rangers (intellect Physique, and grace), Wizards, warlocks, fighters and barbarians are the only ones that could function fairly well with only two decent scores.
#23 uglyvan Dec 13, 2014 7:35:02	a rogue uses Strength along with Dexterity a ninja is used to poison use, that's why I connect it with Con an illusionist uses Dex along with Int (see 1st edition) a monk emphasizes on Wis a thief uses Cha to bluff, a bit like a Spy     ...     but anyone can see that everything is arbitrary, that's why hiding the stats which combine into Classes is ( I think ) worth the investigation...
#24 Hebitsuikaza Dec 13, 2014 11:56:24	uglyvan wrote:
#25 uglyvan Dec 13, 2014 15:11:46	... just to mention that real illusionists, that is illusonists in the real world actually rely much intensively on dexterity ( dexterity is used, along with high intelligence, to teleport or turn things invisible )