So, is there a plan to make a real Vancian system for D&D 5e? The current one is not even close and the “alternative”… Well, I didn’t like even a tiny bit, and I cannot just add more limitations with no bonuses because that would unbalance the game (considering the base game balanced). Has anyone any information about that?
cassi_brazuca wrote:
cassi_brazuca wrote:
Devils-Advocate wrote:
Sort-of. One of the reasons the system is shaped the way it is in 5e is that overall caster power level was turned down. A lot. So while Wizards could be extremely versatile, they didn't have the same kind of nuclear options. Don't get me wrong, they can still cause nine kinds of chaos. But the system as designed in 5e aleviates the problem with dead spells. IE: You prepped a big spell and never got to use it when that slot could have held a much more useful spell that you kind of needed, but only prepared one of. The core mechanic is still Vancian inasmuch as D&D magic has ever really been Vancian (it hasn't; it was derivative of Vance's ideas, but it was NOT actually in-line with magic per Vance.) The system is balanced for player utility over power, encouraging players to prep more than just rockets. So while it may not, on the surface, break things, it WILL limit your players in ways the system was designed against. Much like playing with short-rests, you can really throw off long-term balance and class expectations by changing it. And we'll end up with rocket tag again.
cassi_brazuca wrote:
cassi_brazuca wrote:
Devils-Advocate wrote:
Farmer42 wrote:
Thing is, Farmer42, I kinda hate this system. It's actually pretty different from Vancian, and the alternative isn't good, too (the implementation was awful). To be fair, the whole game just doesn’t sound good to me. Not trying to bait the system, I’m just trying to discover if it’s worthy before I buy (I’m in the other side of the continent and importing things is a little more expensive).
cassi_brazuca wrote:
Devils-Advocate wrote:
cassi_brazuca wrote:
Honestly, the current system /is/ pretty darn close.
Drop preparation and run the basic casters like they were Vancian and their slot/level charts'd work just fine as spells/day charts. You'd even reign in their power a bit in the process.
Unless you mean 'Vancian' in the sense of emulating the magicians of the Dying Earth in which case, yeah, still way too many slots.
I'll say, thank god for the new magic system. While the base system is still marred from the highly artificial and awkward spell slots per level mechanic, it at least doesn't overcomplicate things with pre-dedicating those slots to a single spell.
I'll say, if you want a really Vancian system, though, try using the alternate spell rules, which grand you spell points instead of spell slots. Then, instead of memorising x number of spells per spell level, make it so that you can memorise any spell you possess, so long as you have enough spell points to expend. Thus, a character who has 10 spell points, could memorise 5 lvl1 spells(2 points each) and/or spell instances for that day, or he could opt to memoris 2 lvl1(2 points each) spells and 2 lvl2 spells(3 points each, for example) instead, etc.
Tony_Vargas wrote:
cassi_brazuca wrote:
cassi_brazuca wrote:
It's also worth mentioning that in old-style vancian a Magic Missile (for example) can deal 5d4+5 with a level 1 spell slot, while in 5e you'd have to use a higher level slot.
That also contributes to being able to cast "more spells" in a sense, or at least more spells with your full potential, which should also rebalance the fact that you're once again having to pick your spells in advance.
cassi_brazuca wrote:
CCS wrote:
Almost off-topic.
Let´s remember the "another vacian system": the magic item and firearms. Potions, scrolls and guns can break the balance of power.
cassi_brazuca wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Kalani wrote:
Devils-Advocate wrote:
MechaPilot, this is actually a well-thought system. The "include scaling" part and the "limit cantrips" may be a little difficult - cantrips, as you say, may be the bulk of a caster’s damage. I just wish D&D 5e had a system like this by the book (or a system that I like, since the second one hasn’t the best implementation).
...
Oh, in case anyone is wondering, I live in Brazil. The dollar/local money conversion is particularly disadvantageous for me right now. 
cassi_brazuca wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
cassi_brazuca wrote:
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Greenstone.Walker wrote:
Greenstone.Walker wrote:
cassi_brazuca wrote:
As houserules go, going full Vancian is pretty darn simple. As complaints go for 5e, it's a pretty darn minor one.
It might shift the balance a little, as spellcasters can't cast a go-to spell again-and-again as needed. This could be tweaked by giving spellcasters spontaneous casting, like clerics had in 3e, where they can swap a memorized spell for a specialized one. Such as the evoker always being able to cast fireball. That has the effect of enable characters to always do their "thing" without penalty, increasing the number of spells available, and keeps the characters feeling very different based on their specialization.
As for the expense of trying, there are the Basic rules online. I'd reccomend trying 5e as is for free for a while, getting a feel for the game and how the magic system works in play, and then deciding. I was unimpressed by the system until I saw it being used and grew to like it.