Can somebody explain the difference between demons and devils from the Monster Manual? They're both magical, evil, and extraplanar. Demons come from the Abyss and devils are from the Nine Hells (two locations I'm also having trouble grasping the difference of).
Chaos and Law, simply put. Demons are chaotic, like zerg. Devils are heirarchial, like an evil Roman empire.
Chiisai_Usagi wrote:
Chiisai_Usagi wrote:
seti wrote:
pukunui wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
pukunui wrote:
To me, Grazzt and Lolth aren't demonic enough. That was my point. They act more like devils. They have all the charactaristics I atribute to devils. (Planning. Good looks. Desire for control, power, etc. They don't just kill or destroy because it's fun. You can reason/ make deals with them, sort of.
Tiamat is more chaotic and bestial, IMO. I play her up like a demon lord, not an organized schemer within a heirarchy.
(Off topic)
But also about Lolth...Why does she make drow who 'fail' her look like her? Driders make no sense like that. You'd think becoming the image of your god would be a reward, not a punishment.
But the planar nonsense winner of the 5e MM is how Primus created the Slaad with some device/artifact of lawfulness he put in Limbo. 
Just some of the reasons why I re-write some of the D&D cosmology, legends, and myths. I dig the pre 4e alignment planes/great wheel...But I need to tweak it to make it make sense to me.
Lolth is a demon. She plans but they are demoic.
A patron race of elves with stage 4 chronic backstabber disease with few allies with a faction of halfspider who might be cursed or blessed.
Sounds like a demonn.
Higher demons plan. But those plans are either stupid, instinctual, animalistic, backwards, or nonsensical.
arnwolf666 wrote:
pukunui wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Lolth was a demon, she's a goddess now. She managed to ascend. In the same way Asmodeus was a god, lost it to become a devil, became a god again, and lost it again to be a devil once more. Tiamat controled the first layer of Hell but was never actually a devil. A devil now rules there and Tiamat has a seperate domain. They've basically pulled all the gods out of Hell and the Abyss so they are strictly the homes of devils and demons now. This makes sense for Hell with it's rigid heirarchy.
Chaotic Evil can plan, just don't expect them to hold to their plan, or for them to really detail the plan much. Also Lolth went silent because Drow society was getting too ordered and she wanted them to remember their chaotic side, Remember that only males can become driders, are inferior to females in drow society anyway, and drow are very vain and consider Lolth's drow form as her "true" form, not her drider form (or any of her other forms, as she does have 8 forms). Driders are a curse because the new form strips them of a lot of their abilities, their sanity, and some of their intelligence. It does seem at odds but that's kind of the nature of Chaos, and I think why Eberron made their scorpion-drow blessed rather than cursed as drow in Eberron follow a scorpion god rather than a spider goddess.
I like that succubi/incubi aren't devils or demons, and are solidly noted as being gender-shifters/gender-neutral fiends.
As for the OP, others have done a pretty good job at covering the mechanics of the differences between them. To the characters of the realms (other than learned wizards and such) they are pretty much the same. They are fiends, evil, and bad for mortals. Both Hell and the Abyss are bad, hostile places to avoid. It's primarily when you plan on fighting them or dealing with erudite learning and research that you'd really care about the differences. It's kind of like lions and tigers, to most people they're both big cats that look different, it's only to certain people that the real differences matter.
Devils are Lex Luthor, demons are the Joker.
pukunui wrote:
Was the Blood War a setting-specific thing? I knew they'd junked it with the 4e cosmology reshuffle, but I didn't realize it wasn't a generic aspect of the pre-4e D&D cosmos.
Grazel wrote:
seti wrote:
As far as the differences between demons, devils and yugoloths go, it's pretty clear to me. The key is exploring the ethical differences between the fiends. The fiend types aren't subtly different, they're worlds apart in how they think, act, plot and plan... and the goals they pursue.
Demons are absolute horror. Imagine the worst pain you've ever felt, the most fear you've ever experienced, your loudest scream, the hate you nurse in your hearts but dare not admit. Imagine all those multiplying a thousandfold and forming a singularity, one with a malignant will that would rip asunder all Creation. That's the lowest demons; the higher castes get exponentially worse and more cunning the stronger they get. Only sheer will and their drive to bring ruin to everything keeps demons from dissolving into the hateful chaos of the Abyss. Demons can indeed plot, plan, and think further than fifteen seconds into the future; anyone that thinks otherwise underestimates the determination and cunning necessary to survive centuries in the Abyss and advance as ever greater demons. The plans of glabrezu, balors, and (especially) demon lords like Lolth and Grazzt can span for centuries. Chaotic doesn't mean stupid... but chaos does define their end games. They don't want a chaotic evil empire that spans the cosmos, they want a ruined universe that reflects their bleak inner landscapes... they want the Abyss, everywhere. And each and every demon wants to rule a violated Creation alone, because they even hate each other.
Devils are absolute tyranny. They want Hell everywhere, like the demons want the Abyss everywhere. But those are very different goals. The devils want the laws of Hell to extend throughout Creation, because they are those laws. Devils are embodied extensions of evil's mathematics, they are cruelty's symmetry, they're the quantum of cold hate. They draw power from oppression, by driving your spirit from you and replacing you with reflections of their hateful will. Every devil wants to rule the universe, lusts for that power with all its evil being. But that vision involves a power structure through which it can exercise that rule, and enforce its evil vision upon every living thing. They want the utter ruin of the Abyss no more than you or I.
Yugoloths... well. They're neither yoked by law nor consumed by chaos. They're officially neutrals in the eternal conflict between devils and demons, as law and chaos struggle to assert themselves as the dominant face of evil. They're mercenary entities, whoring themselves to whomever pays them in souls, and as often betraying same, having no grand plan save to enrich themselves. Or it seems, until you pan out and view their seemingly random schemes from the perspective of centuries and millennia. Then their long game comes into focus, with the yugoloths nurturing both devils and demons... but never letting one side prevail over the other. Evil swells and metastasizes, but the balance between demon and devil never changes... a precarious equilibrium maintained by meticulously laid yugoloth surges, betrayals, even self-sacrifice. And neither demons nor devils are stupid, for both know the yugoloths are untrustworthy and loathsome, playing some game of their own. Few suspect what that is. While they're right that the yugoloths profit from their own actions, the truth is worse, and extends beyond mere yugoloth self-interest. While we may have the yugoloths to thank for keeping either demons or devils from overrunning Creation, we will damn them when the combined forces of evil eventually overwhelm it. They cultivate evil, understand? They sacrifice countless souls, other fiends, even themselves if necessary, to see that ethos expand and one day prevail. This is because the yugoloths are absolute evil, pure in a way even the other fiends can never be.
Want to be a pawn in that game? You want to lay odds that you'll be anything but fodder on the end of a cold iron spear? If that doesn't appeal to you, you might take a different path, brother. There's time to repent now, before you step foot onto a path that will lead you ever down.
-- Yasef Breehuvs, bauriar cleric and sage, holder of the Fourth Chalice of the Transcendent Order
lawrencehoy wrote:
Angel_of_the_Dawn wrote:
I just tend to favor the insane evil in demons, and play that up. For me, the whole idea of all these planes (and their native inhabitants) is that they are absolutely that alignment. The material plane is the place where everything can, and does, go down. Thus, it will be (and is) where the fighting happens, and what the fight is over. Each 'alignment' plane, for lack of a better word, wants the material plane, and the mortals that live there. It's free will; the physicial 'real' world. Even the lawful good beings and gods on Mt. Celestia want the prime material plane to go their way. They just aren't violent about it. Unless fighting the beings of the evil planes, of course.
This is just the somewhat ordered way I like to imagine the great wheel planar model. An eight-way* tug of war over all the 'regular' peoples, places, and things. Heck, this conflict might be what sustains and/or created the prime material in the first place.
Now, places like Sigil (and the Far Realm) are outside of all this, yet still accessable in...Ways. The Feywild and Shadowfell are also part of the Prime Material "Sphere",(I guess I'll call it that.) as are an infinite amount of campaign worlds; all the official and homebrewed places. The elemental planes are the building blocks of everything, and the Ethereal is the space between all these planes. Again, this is just how I want to see it.
It's also why alignment shouldn't matter mechanically on the Prime Material like it did in previous editions. 
*I guess 'true neutral' either doesn't exist, outside of philosophy, or its home is the Prime Material Sphere. Or the Elemental Planes, or the Ethereal...Dunno yet. I'm leaning towards true neutral being the Elemental Planes, and the Prime Material being all alignments in equal measure. While the Ethereal is totally and truly Unaligned. Again, I'm not really sure how I want to think about that.
PS: there is no Astral Plane in my interpretation of the D&D cosmology. The closest would be...SPACE! (Hurray Spelljammer).
pukunui wrote:
ankiyavon wrote:
pukunui wrote:
It looks like it does (or did?) exist in FR: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_War
seti wrote:
ankiyavon wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
Mirtek wrote:
Also keep in mind that DROW see the driders as cursed, Lolth doesn't. Also a female drow who fails Lolth's test is killed, not turned into a drider. The driders even got to play an important role in Lolth's Silence gambit against Elistraee for the souls of the drow and to shake up drow society for becoming too Lawful. It was revealed in novels that many of the driders actually consider themselves blessed and hear the voice of Lolth and do her bidding. Since they're male this makes them "insane" and hated by drow society where only females are priests of Lolth and males should never hear her voice.
As for FR and the Blood War, yes it existed, even in the 3.5e World Tree cosmology. In 4e it was stated that Asmodeus upon becoming a god using Azuth's staff hurled the Abyss into the Elemental Planes creating the Elemental Chaos and ending the Blood War. When the Sundering happened and Ao slapped a few deities into line he restored the Abyss to the Outer Planes and removed Asmodeus' stolen godhood. This allowed the Blood War to begin anew as the demons were no longer cut off from the devils and the rest of the Outer Planes. The Sundering is how they bring FR from the Spellplague (4e) era into the 5e rules. These changes include the return of the Weave/Vancian-style magic, the Great Wheel while still leaving a tenuous hold to the Feywild/Shadowfell and the Elemental Chaos minus the Abys, Aebir becoming cut off again but still leaving fragments behind (so apparently as far as we know now Maztica is still shunted to Aebir and not reachable from Faerun). The Spellplague is officially over with spellscars losing their power and casters having to again relearn how to cast magic the "old" way but not exactly (to reflect the higher flexibility in 5e neo-Vancian casting). Also Mystra has returned as a goddess though I'm not sure yet if she's still Midnight or the Simbul or another Avatar/Chosen elevated to the status (I've only read the first of the Sundering novels so far so don't have all the information on the changes).
As for plans and behavior. Demons can plan, but they aren't likely to stay on plan for long and are more likely to change a plan that's not working out than have layers of contingincies. A devil is the opposite, they plan on multiple layers with contingincies to allow a plan to be altered as conditions change. They're also more likely to try to salvage a plan than a demon, which is more likely to just abandon the plan and come up with something new. Yugoloths operate somewhere inbetween with individuals likely leaning more one way or the other and possibly shifting that leaning over time. The planes infuse their inahbitants with the pure ideals of their ethic/moral alignment so they tend to act more solidly inline with that aligntment than creatues of the Material and other Inner Planes. This means you can more easily predict how a demon or devil will act in any situation than you can say the LE Human King or CN Wizard. For mortals alignment is more about how they see themselves and view what's improtant in the ethical (Law/Chaos) and Moral (Good/Evil) spectrums but it doesn't truly define their behavior at all times and all situations.
A champion of animals may not always go to the extreme to protect every animal (maybe they're not vegan, or wear leather, or eradicate "pest" animals like insects, rats, and snakes) but that doesn't mean they are anti-animals. A creature from the Outer Planes is almost never going to go against their "nature" which is their point on those spectrums. So an Outer Planar resident of the "Animals" plane would go to extremes every time for an animal and would never wear leather, eat meat, or try to kill "pest" animals. It's mostly a matter of degree with alignments, they're a "guideline" for mortals, and "rules" for Outer Planar beings.
Demons are slightly weaker and less organized but more numerous than devils...at least historically. While it certainly depends on the demon or devil in question, as a general rule of thumb lesser demons are more prone to simply attempt to rend you to pieces regardless of the circumstances (greater demons often act with more restraint) while devils in general are more prone to manipulation if that would better serve or amuse them.
As mentioned, lawful devils rely on a structured hierarchy whereas the chaotic demon power structure is might makes right. Power isn't top down throughout the whole of the abyss but rather held by feudal lords with their own city states and they cling to power only so long as they remain strong enough to retain it. The devil lords in the 9 hells certainly have feuds between each other, but compared to the abyss, these are kept to a low roar. The devil lords spend more time trying to quietly undermine each other rather than wage open warfare that Asmodeous would likely squash.
Devils and demons have been waging the "Blood War" against one another since as long as anyone can remember.
If your high level party is in need of a lawyer the party wizard should summon a pit fiend. None better. ;)
Grazel wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
I suspect most people on most campaign worlds can't tell the difference, but that may be by design (probably the devil's)
In 4e Lolth's being crazy was played up a lot. When the god of torture and demon lords think you are a nutjob, that says something.
Demons are ruled by their passions. One passion that rules them that few demons think about is that the Abyss wants to expand, and demons born out the Abyss have that desire implanted in them. It is why they try to enter the material plane (to make it more like the Abyss for easier absorption) and why hordes of them rampage through the lower planes as part of the Blood War. Demon Lords represent things that make the rest of the universe more like the Abyss. Lots of undead--that is Orcus, using magic to dominate other sentients--that is Grazzt, etc..
Devils are social climbers. They believe in the organization, but they think that only the strongest, smartest, most charismatic, most ruthless, etc. should rule, so any devil that shows a sign of weakness or failure might get pulled down by his/her subordinates.
The common view is the yugoloths are mercenary, but I think they worship conflict. Some of them are smart enough to know that being overt about that would negatively impact their chances of spreading strife, so they pose as mercenaries and act like it is expensive to bribe them. If a bribe to change sides or not take action would prolong or increase the intensity of a fight, the yugoloth is easy and cheap to bribe, but if the bribe would end a conflict, no amount of gold or souls will do it.
pukunui wrote:
Grazel wrote:
Demons come from manes, which are what happens to evil souls when they die but haven't been corrupted by Hell. Manes can't be killed in the Abyss, so they just grind and die and revive and rinse and repeat. Eventually, manes either mutate or are promoted into higher demonic forms by more powerful demons - usually for that demon's personal interests. If a demon survives and accrues enough power, they become a demon prince or a demon lord, at which point they become a major player in the Abyss.
Beyond that, demons seems as individually-motivated as any mortal or god. They have varied and unrelated goals, they don't have any sort of formal internal cohesion between them, and there's zero loyalty between demons on the basis of their identity as demons.
Devils, on the other hand, come from lemures which is what happens to any soul that's been shanghaied by an infernal contract, soul-selling deal, or the like. Such a soul is drafted into some sort of menial labor within the rigid and strictly-enforced hierarchies of Hell. As time goes by, lemures are promoted by archdevils and the like for specific purposes. Very rarely will a devil promote a lower-ranked devil very high out of fear of the likelihood of competition. Nonetheless, the goals of all devils seems tied to the overall goal of Hell - to expand their numbers and corrupt more mortals, rinse and repeat.
So, if you ask me, it seems like the difference between the two is really that demons seem more natural - souls tend to become manes, at least evil souls do - and without any deeper purpose, while devils seem like the very complex plan of Asmodeus (or his predecessor?) in a long game against the gods and the Material Plane as a whole.
DragonOfLight wrote:
Novacat wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
seti wrote:
seti wrote:
seti wrote:
Devils are fallen Angels.
They lived in service to a god, turned their back on the gods and now they are evil. Essentially evil. They still have a hierarchy as they still have restrictions to serve.
In fact, they are also restricted to keep their word. Devils cannot truely lie. They can and do mislead people all the time, but never directly lie. They can't do that.
Their goal is to corrupt people. The more good and righteous a person was before the corruption, the more they benefit from corrupting them and turning them evil. Corrupt souls become demons and the more people a demon corrupts, the higher they wil rise in the giant pyramid scheme they have going on there.
Devils are highly, highly intelligent. They probably rely very much on illusion magic and Roguish-type abilities.
Demons are physical manifestations of chaos and suffering.
There is no real order among them. The bigger ones can force their will on the smaller, but the smaller do not feel honor-bound or duty-bound to serve. They will happily turn on their masters to get ahead. Demons are free to lie, but then... they don't really have much care for interacting with mortals. They gain their power and procreate through suffering and chaos. The more they can spread suffering and chaos, the more powerful they become and the more minions they can spawn. They have no particular desire to corrupt anyone, though... mind you... as much as they love battle, if they can get others to fight among themselves rather than unite against the demons, that spreads suffering and chaos all the better.
Demons focus more on raw power, usually physical power. They are usually direct combat lords and probably focus on abjuration magic. However, their methods of dispatching enemies usually involves terrible, terrible pain.
Now, mind you- both devils and demons lose if they wipe out the sentient races. Because in terms of total annhiliation, there are no more souls to laden with sins and there cannot be anything less chaotic with less suffering than a totally dead world. So neither wants to destroy the world and just watch it burn.
That is where the Yuggoloth come in. They are beings of death. They exist to end existence. Perhaps all things they kill turn into Yuggoloth. War, famine, pestilance and death. These are the forces that the Yuggoloth serve.
Yuggoloths also look quite bizzare and are likely going to cause harm by inflcting all sorts of horrible effects upon their enemies trying to ensure their enemies will die even if they enemies succeed in slaying it.
So, if you want a fiend that is primarily social, hidden in plain sight and will send the adventurers on a quest that will test them again and again as to whether they will choose the hard path or the easy evil path, that's a devil.
If you want a fiend that has slain the king and is posing as him to pass down all sorts of terrible laws that stirs up rebellion while also offending foreign nations, all leading up to a massive war and break down of the order of the land-- that is likely a demon.
If you want a fiend who is behind a horrific plague that is spreading through the populace with no hope of escape, that is probably a Yuggoloth.
Granted, one can see that the ultimate results of their actions can be very similar. In fact, if the Devil can whisper into the King's ear and corrupt him so he thinks a war is in his best interests, but it really isn't and will ultimately cause a breakdown in the order of the land and a ton of death... well, in that scenario all three types of Fiends benefit.
As for fighting them?
A good devil ought to be far too clever to even let adventurers do battle with them. If you can even try, you have probably stepped into a trap and the devil has already won.
A good demon is probably a damn near impossible opponent to overcome. You'll end up chain to a rack being tortured for eternity for even trying.
A good yuggolith will devour everything in the world. Even if you do overcome it, it won't care and will kill you even as it dies... only to return later.
seti wrote:
Mechagamera wrote:
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Zardnaar wrote:
Novacat wrote:
Novacat wrote:
Grazel wrote:
lawrencehoy wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Novacat wrote:
arnwolf666 wrote:
pukunui wrote:
ankiyavon wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Brock_Landers wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
Irithil wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
DragonOfLight wrote:
Say there is a multipayer game.
The Demonic player is the guy who focuses on one guy, absolutely crushes them, makes himself into a target, and sacrifices his chances of victory.
The Devilist player will create a plan with a few restrictions, attempt a gamble based on corruption or trickery or two, and hope to survive long enough to see it. through
The Deamonish player plays mercenery for the highest bidder and weaken everyone else equally until they can take them all out at once.
Shasarak wrote:
Grifford wrote:
Shasarak wrote:
Devils are into classic rock and demons are into thrash metal.
MechaPilot wrote:
Rastapopoulos wrote:
The above is true, to the best of my knowledge, about the name changes. During the 80s and 90s, the fantasy of children being exposed to "satanism" or "witchcraft" was a popular subject for parents to fret about. One of my middle-school friends, with whom I played D&D, received a book from his parents warning him about the dangers of roleplaying games and their "links to the occult," or something along those lines.
Not only were the D&D monster names of "Devil" and "Demon" changed to "Baatezu" and "Tanar'ri" to appease mainstream parents, but some original Magic: the Gathering card artwork was also modified to remove potentially "offensive" symbols such as a pentagram on the card "Unholy Strength."
All in all, though, through my experience in D&D, Devils and Demons differ mainly in alignment, general appearance, and "home world." They're both races of planar creatures forged from some sort of "evolutionary" process where more powerful creatures are created from weaker ones.
D&D Devils generally resemble humanoids with forked tails or bat wings and are fond of fire, barbed weapons, and polearms. This makes them somewhat more aesthetically similar to Christian "devils" or the "Devil." A few of them come from a cold climate, however, but this is not surprising, given that a lot of the inspiration for Devils and their home, the Nine Hells (Baator), seems to stem from The Inferno by Dante Alighieri, which describes the center of Hell as being a cold and frozen lake.
For example, several of the "lords" of the Nine Hells look like attractive men or women with styled hair and fancy clothing, even if they also have hooved feat or tails. They also tend to have names taken from Christian (or Roman/Greek) lore, such as Baalzebub, Mephistopheles, and Dispater.
D&D Demons are more diverse in appearance, due to their "Chaotic" Evil alignment, but generally have animalistic features (including snake, ape, or wolf features). Some of them are completely alien in appearance. Some resemble mythical or literary creatures (such as the Marilith or Baalor), but others are "blob demons" or "two-headed jackal-baboon-snake-fish demons."
Of course, given their ability to deny most categorization, some demons and demon lords appear as attractive humanoids (Grazzt, succubus, incubus) or appear fairly "diabolical" with goat legs, bat wings, or horns (Orcus).
Brock_Landers wrote:
The breakdown is derived from Paradise Lost: devils are based on fallen angels, yugoloths are based on the offspring of Sin and Lucifer, and demons are based off the things in the darkness Lucifer encounters on his way to Eden (Orcus and Demogorgon are specifically named).
Shasarak wrote:
These are some excellent definitions.
seti wrote:
2Chlorobutanal wrote:
The_White_Sorcerer wrote:
spelley wrote:
MechaPilot wrote:
Azzy1974 wrote:
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Irithil wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Orethalion wrote:
The_Jester wrote:
Musically, I'd say devils are more into bands you've never heard of. (You know Dispater is a hipster.)
Demons definitely like thrash metal and discordant or cacophonous electronic/alternative. (Demogorgon is built for mosh pits.)
Yugoloths like whatever is on sale or on top 40 lists. (Mercenary bastards.)