What Would You Steal From 5E?

Post/Author/DateTimePost
#1

Zardnaar

Apr 22, 2015 17:39:19

 

 During the D&D dark ages when I followed Yoda into exile. After burning out on 3.x type mgames in 2012 I went back to BECMI and 2E and found I still enjoyed them and from there it was a short step to the retroclones such as ACKs, Basic Fantasy and Castles and Crusades.

 

 I even went as far as designing my own D&D which I come back to on occasion. My homebrew was based heavily on 2E with elements of 3E added in such as ascending ACs, feats, and fort/ref/will saves. Now assume you are designing your own fantasy heartbreaker version of D&D. I like a lot of 5E but there is a lot in it I do not like such as certain feats andthe healing system whjich is all over the place and varies to much depending on what the PCs take. This is not back to the old DS mechanics type arguements but there is an extreme swing in PC power if you have a life cleric and the healing feat for example. My PCs always take that healing feat as well.

 

 Bounded accuracy is another example. I like the idea in concept but ACs are all over the place and then you have things like the Paladin aura and feats like sharp shooter and great weapon fighter. ATM I have a Oath of the ancients Paladin rocking the house with GWM feat, a life cleric and a PC with the healing feat. Thats a lot of healing and damage. 

 

 So what would you steal from 5E for your own verison of Basic D&D? Assume you are only going to level 5 with the Fighter, Wizard, Cleric and Rogue as options. You can take anything you like from any edition of D&D and use any edition as a base game including 5E if you would just like to tweak 5E. 

 

Mine (this would be expanded later BTW with races and classes)

Base Game BECMI/5E Hybrid with influence from Basic Fantasy, Castles and Crusades, ACKs, 3.5&4E

 

4 Races (human, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling)

4 Classes 

BECMI xp tables (classes advance at different rates)

Level 1-5 (to be expanded later)

AD&D armor, welcome back platemail and +9 AC full plate. No dex restriction on heavy armor

No dex to damage, 

Fort/Ref/Will from 3E tweaked a'la SWSE and OSR type saves (at high level you make your saves 75-95% of the time)

4E combat modifers and round structure (standard, move, minor, +2 to hit flanking etc)

3.5/4E feats (feats at level 1,3,5) OSR power levels (no natural spell).

Fixing dragons (magic weapons required vs older ones, proper MR and spells, higher ACs)

 

From 5E

Advantage/disadvantage mechancic

Magic item creation rules

Bounded Accuracy (tweaked lower PC damage, less gonzo ferats and class abilites, weaker monsters)

Cherry picked abilites from current feats into smaller feats.

Weapon styles (as feats)

Proficiency bonus replacing THACO/BAB

Some class abilities (action surge, cleric abilitie etc)

Pre selected class abilites as oppsed to 3.5 fighter type class.

Size= monster HD concept+ monster sizes.

Monster abilites, tweaked in some case.

Magic resistance based on 5E and 2E (spellcasters gonna really really hate high MR/SR monsters).

 

Things to be removed from 5E

Messy ACs. ACs would range up to AC 25 or even 30 but less high CR critters with AC 14 or something unless therer is a damn good reason.

Silly monsters (18 AC hobgoblins with 11 hp and potentially 1d8+2d6 damage)

Vast differences in healing rates via feats and class abilites

Toning down very swingy monster damage and abilities (Kobold swarms, Orcs, Hobgoblins, Ogres, Bugbears and Gnolls being big offenders)

#2

Zardnaar

Apr 22, 2015 17:47:47

Sample Monsters

 

 

Kobold

Small Humanoid

Initiative +2 Senses Perception -1 darkvision 60'

HD 1d6-1  Hp 3

AC 12

Saves  Fortitude +4, Reflex +6 Will +3

Speed 30'

Attack Melee +1 Dagger (1d4-1)

Ranged +3 sling dmg 1d4

SQ: Shifty

Trap Sense The Kobold gains a +2 bonus to all defenses against traps.

Alignment Lawful Evil Languages Common, Draconic

Skills Stealth+3 Thievery +3

Str Dex 12 Con 9 Int Wis 8 Cha 10

Equipment  dagger, sling

Traits

 Shifty (minor action ) The Kobold shifts 1 square.

Light Sensitivity: While in sunlight, the kobold has disadvantage on attack rolls.

 

Hobgoblin

Medium Humanoid

Initiative +0 Senses Perception +4; darkvision 60'

HD 1d8+1 hp 6

AC 15

Saves  Fortitude +5, Reflex +5 Will +4

Speed 30'

Attack: Melee +2  Dmg 1d6 or

+2 ranged damage 1d6 (spear)

Str 10 Dex 12  Con 12 Int 10  Wis 10 Cha 13

Alignment LE Languages Common, Goblin

Skills: Perception , Stealth

Equipment: , large wooden shield, studded leather, 3 spears

 

Traits

Phalanx: Hobgoblins gain +2 AC when fighting adjacent to another creature with this ability.

 

Disciplined: The hobgoblin chooses a creature within its reach. The next attack roll made against that target by a friendly creature that also has this trait has advantage.

 

#3

Nesian42Ryukaiel

Apr 22, 2015 17:57:17

As for now I can think of two things to steal if I can;

 

- Moving full speed and attacking multiple times for free

- Manually scaling spell power

 

For others, well, time for another walkthrough on my core rulebooks...

#4

Zardnaar

Apr 22, 2015 18:30:31

Nesian42Ryukaiel wrote:
#5

Slit518

Apr 22, 2015 19:09:02

A couple years ago I started making my own Pen and Paper game using D&D 3.5 as a base for my rule-set, eventually modding it time and time again giving it's own identity.

 

However, when I started playing D&D 5th edition, I was shocked to realize some rules I was using in my game.

 

For example, I was going to have perks such as Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, skill based ones, etc... which when you took them it would allow the person to roll the die twice everytime they used a skill or had to save and let them take the greater of both rolls.  This was similar to Advantage.  I was going to have negative effects and curse spells which would do the opposite and allow rolling the die twice and taking the worse of both rolls, which is similar to Disadvantage.

 

Another thing I had, having a rule for when players level up, allowing them to take average HP at level up or roll the HP die instead.

 

I also allowed characters to choose skills that were important to them.  So in my game you could have a fighter who would have less skills than a rogue, but the fighter could sneak and pick locks if it wanted to.  5th edition allows this by letting you choose backgrounds with certain skills.

 

Another similarity, when players were choosing races in my game, it was going to be the base race, aka Human, Elf, Dwarf, etc... and then you would choose the sub-race, aka Drow, Wild, High.  Of course 5th edition did this...

 

It's kind of funny and good feeling knowing that some ideas I came up with work in a real popular pen and paper game and people seem to enjoy them.  At the same time, it makes me mad, only because if I did it sooner or finished my game, it could of been my idea originally.

 

I also allow players to move their distance and attack as many times as they can in that distance moved, so they can space it out the way they want.  5th edition does that too...

 

Oh well, back to the drawing board!  I'll just keep working on my game and not care what WotC does.  Perhaps the OGL will allow me to still make my game the way I do, and perhaps not!  *shakes fist*

#6

Zardnaar

Apr 22, 2015 19:23:11

Slit518 wrote:
#7

Slit518

Apr 22, 2015 19:58:22

Oh yeah, I also did this with my game -

I had 6 stats, with each stat having a race associated with it (except Humans).  I had Halfings associated with Charisma.  If I recall correctly (my D&D 5th Edition Player's Handbook is over there) they had Halflings associated with Charisma as their main stat and either Dex or Con as their secondary stat...  Seriously, WotC must have spies, or it's just a series of really eerie coincidences.  Either way, I didn't play test D&D Next, I got the full release for Christmas.

#8

arnwolf666

Apr 22, 2015 21:35:44

I like Bounded Accuracy.  I been dropping concentration and redoing a few spells to make them work better (Polymorph).  I had to redesign the Wizard and the Sorcerer.  Really wanted wizard's to be the true masters of magic again and the Sorcerer more focused on Bloodlines.  I adore the Paladin and Rogue.  I let people pick the saves they are proficient in, one from Dex, Con, Wis, and another from Str, Int, Cha.  I really like the skill system alot.  Though I removed the Athletics skill and just made it an athletics save.  I really felt the athletics skill as used in play was more of a save.

#9

kalil

Apr 22, 2015 21:54:12

Damage resistance: Clean and simple rule that works across all levels

Movement rules: Works better here than in previous versions

Wands: Minor thing maybe, but the 5e implementation of wands is great

The concept of subclasses: But I would use it to build a game with only 3 classes (Fighter, Rogue, Mage) with subclasses and multiclassing allowing realization of other character concepts. 

 

Other than that "my" basic D&D would rely mostly on 4e which IMHO has the best basic rule set (not talking about the hideous power/feat bloat but the basic rules of the game) of any edition so far. 

#10

SirAntoine

Apr 22, 2015 22:06:19

Nothing so far.  I was eyeing the specialist wizard abilities.  They and some of the monk's new abilities are cool.  Most things are just over-powered.  I'd rather take stuff from 4th Edition if I want to raise the bar that high.  The AEDU abilities are mostly gone, which is ridiculous.  5th Edition is highly-empowered, so why not use them?  All of that just goes to waste.

(Reply to #9)

arnwolf666

kalil wrote:
#12

Zardnaar

Apr 22, 2015 22:12:59

SirAntoine wrote:
(Reply to #12)

arnwolf666

Zardnaar wrote:
#14

Zardnaar

Apr 23, 2015 3:03:34

arnwolf666 wrote:
(Reply to #14)

arnwolf666

Zardnaar wrote:
#16

strider13x

Apr 23, 2015 3:44:02

things I would keep

 

Bounded Accuracy

Action Economy

Advantage

Backgrounds determining Talents

Movement

Resistance/Vulnerability

 

things I would change

 

Feats/Skills (Talents that you could invest in giving smaller boosts than feats but more than just +'s, this could effect class related powers as well as lead to a classless system)

Weapons/Armor (see Gamma World)

Clearer wording about when a rule references another rule, simpler language.

Spells/spell slots (a more organic Talent based system relying less on rote style spells, see M20 Wayfarer magic)

 

#17

FFSAA

Apr 23, 2015 6:26:40

The art.  It's pretty much universally loved and is responsible for a large chunk of the sales.  The name.  Again a large chunk of the sales.  The pre-marketing spin.  Again a large chunk of sales and the hillarity of watching people say the game has features like bounded accuracy even when it doesn't or think bad features are good like advantage.

#18

Ralif_Redhammer

Apr 23, 2015 8:02:50

I’d definitely take Inspiration (and by default, advantage). I love the idea of using it to encourage styles of play you want to see in the game.

 

#19

Miladoon

Apr 23, 2015 11:12:52

Everything but chapter 3 in the PHB.  Homebrewed classes and subclasses huzzah.

#20

Artifact

Apr 23, 2015 11:23:00

We've been using the 'plot points' variant from the DMG.  We've did this sorta thing before but the guidelines in 5e are a bit more codified.  Rotating DMs is an idea we explored in our 4e games before.  'The plot thickens' (option 2 in the DMG) is a new idea for us though and has been really fun to play around with.  

 

Basically, as a player, I might add an element to a scene (an invisible someone who is tagging along  with the group for instance), then my buddy next to me 'thickens the plot' by deciding that this someone is actually something (like an invisible, intelligent sword, floating along with us).

 

We've only used 'plot points' in our 4e games so far.  Our first 5e games were spent learning the core system.

#21

Brock_Landers

Apr 23, 2015 11:56:58

I have ported over the Bounded Accuracy deal in a way to 3rd and 4th Ed.

 

For 3rd Ed, all creatures have a BAB: + 1/2 level/HD, Saves are: + 1/2 level/HD, DCs for spells = 10 + 1/2 level + mod, natural armour bonuses are halved, ability scores cap at 36.

 

For 4th Ed, I have simply removed the 1/2 level bonus from everything, and use Inherent Bonuses (which peak at +6, just like 5th Ed's Proficiency Bonus).

#22

Rastapopoulos

Apr 24, 2015 15:55:05

 

For the past few years I've been running 2e with a few things borrowed from 3e (or Myth & Magic, most likely) such as thief skills being regular proficiencies instead of % and such. I also like to expand the Weapon Proficiency list to a good amount of new maneuvers (when I'm not using my own house-ruled version of the Complete Ninja's martial arts system).

 

I tried 5e for quite a while when it came out... didn't like it. Too crunchy and too bloated with small rules. Class design was also very very bad. But a few general rules 5e introduced I did quite like and so I experimented with adding them to my running 2e games.

 

I ended up keeping only Advantage/Disadvantage.

 

I tested other things such as Bounded Accuracy and its Proficiency Bonus instead of THAC0 and proficiency checks, and it was all right at first but didn't feel quite right. It's not bad, it's just that 2e system for those things is simply better. I did keep somewhat the 5e attribute-based saves too, although after testing it I felt some saves were greatly underused so I toyed with the list a bit and reduced it to a 2e/5e hybrid, more or less.

 

Currently this is the system setup I use in a nutshell (the core changes at least):

*Base system is 2e.

*Expanded list of proficiencies.

*Thief skills are proficiencies, thieves gain a lot of nonweapon proficiency slots.

*Advantage/Disadvantage

*Myth & Magic style THAC0 and proficiency checks (with the standardized DCs)

*5 saves: Maneuver, Reflex, Fortitude, Willpower, Spell (save roll and progression 2e style).

 

 

(Reply to #17)

arnwolf666

FFSAA wrote:
#24

Brock_Landers

Apr 25, 2015 0:54:42

arnwolf666 wrote:
#25

Zardnaar

Apr 25, 2015 8:11:52

Rastapopoulos wrote:
(Reply to #25)

arnwolf666

Zardnaar wrote:
#27

cassi_brazuca

Apr 25, 2015 13:20:15

FFSAA wrote:
#28

seti

Apr 26, 2015 3:16:34

5e's best ideas are:

  • Advantage/disadvantage mechanic.
  • The illustrations and design. 5e does have some great visuals.
  • Keeping the numbers low so there's less table math, less modifyers, and less outragious stuff like +40 to hit bonuses (3e/PF and 4e have too much of that).
  • Big, important feats, but less of them. (Although I do not consider them optional. No one I know in this day and age wants featless D&D.)
  • The return of Bludgeoning/Piercing/Slashing as damage types.
  • Legendary Monsters and Lair Actions.
  • A return to Caster Superiority. (If you play a caster.)

5e's worst ideas are:

  • A return to spell levels being different than PC level. (ie: learning a 3rd level spell at level 5.)
  • A return to saves instead of attacker always rolls against a static defense score.
  • Single digit HP at level one. (for many PCs, at least.)
  • Lots of unclear mechanics and design decisions. ie: The 'curtain' is drawn again; it's hard to understand why some races get X and some get Y, it's had to understand CR/encounter building, the game often seems unbalanced (at least on paper), etc.
  • CR instead of monster levels where one monster of level X = one PC of level X.
  • Very little support for those who want to use minis and the battle grid. It's default to use TotM, which takes power away from PC's and totally favors DM's.
  • Release schedule. I like quality over quantity, but I don't like adventure paths, and bare-bones, half-assed crunch as the only releases. That's too extreme in the other direction that 3e and 4e had.
  • No real 3rd party support, and no Dungeon and Dragon Magazines.
  • The DIY/ 'figure it out on your own' attitude of the Dev. Team.
  • Cookie cutter PC's at level one.
  • A return to Caster Superiority. (If you don't play a caster.)
#29

Brock_Landers

Apr 26, 2015 3:42:39

Double-Post.

#30

RCanine

Apr 26, 2015 12:46:45

Zardnaar wrote:
(Reply to #27)

arnwolf666

cassi_brazuca wrote:
#32

mellored

Apr 27, 2015 5:51:04

seti wrote:
#33

Brock_Landers

Apr 27, 2015 10:44:00

Best ideas in 5th Ed:

-Capped Ability Scores

-Bounded Accuracy

-Ability Scores for Saving Throws

#34

ChrisCarlson

Apr 27, 2015 12:33:08

Brock_Landers wrote:
#35

Zardnaar

Apr 27, 2015 15:57:00

I like the concpet pf bounded accuracy thye kind of whiffed on the execution with monster design, 20 as the max ability score limit (should probably be 18) some feats and the Paladin. 

#36

arnwolf666

Apr 27, 2015 16:58:58

Brock_Landers wrote:
#37

Zardnaar

Apr 27, 2015 18:02:52

arnwolf666 wrote:
#38

Zardnaar

Apr 27, 2015 18:02:53

arnwolf666 wrote:
#39

ankiyavon

Apr 28, 2015 1:24:08

My favorite things about 5E that I'd steal for other games are subclasses and the paladin design.


I really like the paladin spell list and their ability to turn spell slots into smites.  In general, I think it's great when you have a hybrid with a shared resource between their goals; in this case, the paladin being a hybrid spellcaster/melee fighter, they can spend spell slots for power in either area.  But their ability to do both combined is limited by a single resource pool.  It's just a really great way to balance hybrids and let them actually be good at the things they choose to do without making them overpowered.

#40

Brock_Landers

Apr 28, 2015 10:21:00

Another one to steal from 5th Ed is Resistance/Vulnerability.

#41

Brock_Landers

Apr 28, 2015 10:28:19

Zardnaar wrote:
#42

Zardnaar

Apr 28, 2015 15:51:12

Brock_Landers wrote:
#43

mellowship

Apr 30, 2015 4:30:56

Things I'd steal from 5e for other systems:

 

-Advantage/Disadvantage.

-Backgrounds.

#44

DaomSlayer

Apr 30, 2015 8:35:34

FFSAA wrote:
#45

Brock_Landers

Apr 30, 2015 10:31:10

DaomSlayer wrote:
#46

kalil

Apr 30, 2015 11:23:45

Brock_Landers wrote:
#47

Brightmantle

Apr 30, 2015 11:23:58

Zard ole' boy, I am not going to be stealing much from 5e to enhance my other games. If and when I play it- that's what I'll play. For me personally: it doesn't have much to offer to improve my AD&D, or D&D 3.5 games. It's its own system and I plan to allow it to stand alone at the table. or play something else till I feel it can.

#48

ChrisCarlson

Apr 30, 2015 12:19:27

kalil wrote:
#49

ORC_Cricket

Apr 30, 2015 22:47:08

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#50

Brock_Landers

Apr 30, 2015 23:23:16

kalil wrote:
#51

JohnLynch

May 01, 2015 6:25:38

I just finished compiling a list of houserules for Pathfinder inspired by Pathfinder Unchained. Apparently the things I'd steal from 5th edition are:

* Death Saving Throws

* Hit Dice Healing

* Reduced spell slots

* Remove the reliance on magic items to keep up with the treadmill.
* Consolidated skills list

* Subraces

* Backgrounds

 

Other stuff I'd steal if it wouldn't bork the game math so much:

* Bounded Accuracy

* Advantage/Disadvantage

* Spells only scale with spell level.

 

I'm starting to think I secretly just want to keep playing 5th edition ;)

#52

Brock_Landers

May 01, 2015 6:46:32

JohnLynch wrote:
#53

JohnLynch

May 01, 2015 6:48:29

Brock_Landers wrote:
(Reply to #51)

arnwolf666

JohnLynch wrote:
#55

adembroski11

May 09, 2015 0:11:57

Pathfinder + 5th Edition... 

Start with PF, peared down to the Core rulebook to start (biggest problem with d20 in general is bloat)... take bounded accuracy, advantage/disadvantage, work the backgrounds system, and rework the PF skills system to fit into the bounded accuracy of 5e.  COMPLETELY revise the PF feats system so it's not trees (prereqs based on stats are fine... +2 BAB is a fine prereq... another feat that requires two other feats is not).


I really couldn't tell you whether I prefer PF or 5E.  I feel like PF gives me more creative freedom, but 5E leaves me more free time:P

#56

Brock_Landers

May 09, 2015 0:41:27

arnwolf666 wrote: